Changes vs Tigers

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MaxiBont

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I see it differently. If we weren’t in the finals race, I’ve no doubt that Cleary would getting a better run and possibly even Buss although I can’t see it happening with Buss just yet.

Duryea may be dropping off and losing more contests and missing more targets than he used to, but you can’t beat his sort of experience which spans far wider than just what he does with ball in hand. He’d have a far better understanding of systems and what to do and when than what Cleary would and so the coaches clearly see him as part off the 22 to win the games we need to in the next month, rather than trusting a youngster who’s barely played any at the top level.

Cleary didn’t do much wrong last week but he certainly didn’t put a strong case in to hold a spot in our backline when we’ve got elimination final type games coming up.

Lol what system? The system that constantly lets the opposition kick 5 goals in a row week in week out?

That's the reason we should keep Dureya in - not because he is any good anymore but because he knows the system.

The coaches treat fringe young developing players like s**t. Dureya is not helping us win games, Greene and Papley had a field day with him.

The problem is by now Cleary should have played 3-5 games already in AFL and be fit and ready but the coach and MC are too stubborn, it's ridiculous and holding us back. I'm not trying to say Cleary is some messiah but his case is one that is far too common in recent Bulldog history.
 
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I think our fade outs are evidence that fitness staff aren't good enough.
Add that to the list of grievances then.
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Unorth

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If that's correct then it is understandable. But how can a player be on our list for x years and not have the gas to see out a match?

The same is allegedly true of Buku Khamis (though I don't think I have heard it substantiated by anyone who has watched him in recent times. Is it just one of those early-career labels that can't be shaken no matter what the later evidence shows?).

How can this be?

Are they physiologically incapable of reaching the required fitness levels? Are our fitness and conditioning staff incompetent? Is there some other reason?

Can someone explain please?

There is no understanding it. The ToG reasoning (often applied to defenders where it’s more important) is out the window when you see what % JoD is averaging, even removing the game he got concussed in.
 

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Mojorisin

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There is no understanding it. The ToG reasoning (often applied to defenders where it’s more important) is out the window when you see what % JoD is averaging, even removing the game he got concussed in.
This will be his first week as a key defender (Rather then 3rd tall or spare).
Will be interesting to see his % you'd imagine it'd have to be about 90.
 

_Cerberus_

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Simple equation this week, if we lose, season is done. We win, it will probably come down to the Hawks game in Tassie to see if we get in
If we lose, winning vs Hawks and Eagles may not even be enough. Some teams around us have soft fixtures as well. Big trouble if we lose

With the Cats having a hard fixture, a real good chance our match vs them could be a battle for the last finals spot should we lose tomorrow.
 

Charlie Bucket

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Lol what system? The system that constantly lets the opposition kick 5 goals in a row week in week out?

That's the reason we should keep Dureya in - not because he is any good anymore but because he knows the system.

The coaches treat fringe young developing players like s**t. Dureya is not helping us win games, Greene and Papley had a field day with him.

The problem is by now Cleary should have played 3-5 games already in AFL and be fit and ready but the coach and MC are too stubborn, it's ridiculous and holding us back. I'm not trying to say Cleary is some messiah but his case is one that is far too common in recent Bulldog history.

Yeah spot on. The only system we have in place is to concede back to back goals.

You’ve nailed it Maxi 👍
 

_Cerberus_

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Tigers must be feeling confident in beating us with finals on the line. Considering they have "managed" both Cotchin and Martin this week.
 
Cleary going from a spot in the team to not in the squad, says he must have gone completely against what he was meant to be doing and is why he hasn't been getting picked.
I would have kept Cleary in, but he was beaten last week.
If we had more experience in the backline I'd expect Doc would get rested. Seems a yard slower than last year
 

MaxiBont

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Yeah spot on. The only system we have in place is to concede back to back goals.

You’ve nailed it Maxi 👍

I know you're trying to be sarcastic but the system is a major problem with the team and does make teams more likely to kick goals in a row once they get a bit of momentum.

The Giants game is a perfect example of this. They were kicking with the wind in the 3Q and we were out to a 35 point lead, instead of protecting the lead we continue to play high and see no adjustments when we desperately needed them. The system is too rigid and it hurts us when things aren't going our way.

We've seen it time and time again... Giants, Suns, Swans, Cats and Pies. All games in winnable situations lost by teams kicking a big number of goals in a row against us with no adjustments.

Maybe it's time to invest in youth when players like Dureya are on their way out. If we want to be serious next year Dureya can't be in our best 22.
 

Doggies7

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Tigers must be feeling confident in beating us with finals on the line. Considering they have "managed" both Cotchin and Martin this week.

5 Day break was always going to be tough for some of their old boys this late into the season. It's a risk but so is aggravating a calf or hammy etc a few rounds out from finals.
 

Doggies7

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Was at Ballarat last week and watched Cleary closely. He was totally gassed and is still physically under the mark. Absolutely no surprise he is the first out.
Good to have another POV on the Cleary omission. I asked a few weeks ago wondering what the reason he wasn't playing 1s despite our backline injuries as his good form in the VFL. Still developing strength and improving his tank (which is absolutely data our coaching staff monitor closely), does make sense in regards to why he hasn't been playing and was a quick out again this week. Rather than just "Bevo hates him".
 
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I see it differently. If we weren’t in the finals race, I’ve no doubt that Cleary would getting a better run and possibly even Buss although I can’t see it happening with Buss just yet.

Duryea may be dropping off and losing more contests and missing more targets than he used to, but you can’t beat his sort of experience which spans far wider than just what he does with ball in hand. He’d have a far better understanding of systems and what to do and when than what Cleary would and so the coaches clearly see him as part off the 22 to win the games we need to in the next month, rather than trusting a youngster who’s barely played any at the top level.

Cleary didn’t do much wrong last week but he certainly didn’t put a strong case in to hold a spot in our backline when we’ve got elimination final type games coming up.
Duryea has been dropping off. JOD was out injured. Really disappointed we never took the opportunity to play Cleary earlier and Buss when we had the chance.

Duryea has dropped off to the level that playing Cleary is not weakening the team in any way bit could potentially improve the team on the run into and possibly the finals.

We are too conservative and need to be more brave to challenge this year which we should be doing

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Charlie Bucket

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I know you're trying to be sarcastic but the system is a major problem with the team and does make teams more likely to kick goals in a row once they get a bit of momentum.

The Giants game is a perfect example of this. They were kicking with the wind in the 3Q and we were out to a 35 point lead, instead of protecting the lead we continue to play high and see no adjustments when we desperately needed them. The system is too rigid and it hurts us when things aren't going our way.

We've seen it time and time again... Giants, Suns, Swans, Cats and Pies. All games in winnable situations lost by teams kicking a big number of goals in a row against us with no adjustments.

Maybe it's time to invest in youth when players like Dureya are on their way out. If we want to be serious next year Dureya can't be in our best 22.

You don’t get into winning positions with poor systems or game plans. It just doesn’t happen. If we were so poorly set up, we’d be well beaten for more of our games most weeks. This hasn’t been the case this year.

Even consecutive weeks of conceding back to back goals either side of really good football doesn’t suggest a system issue, It suggests a drop off of what we’re doing well. We just don’t play well enough for long enough in our games. It’s clear as day. And yes, that is a coaching issue.

As for developing players, that’s exactly what the VFL is for. Players that aren’t up to it straight from their drafts year develop in the 2’s. When the coaches believe they’re ready, they get a chance. When has this become such a controversial topic? Just because you believe Cleary should be playing every week, doesn’t mean he’s at that level yet. Saturdays game clearly showed he’s still got a while to go before he’s a lock in the side. The coaches clearly have a better understanding of where he’s at with his footy. It’s silly for supporters to scream injustice every week around some of these selections when chances are they have no idea exactly where the players are at with their football.

Same thing happened with Lucas Webb, supporters lost their s**t every week claiming the coaches didn’t know what they were doing and were tipping him to go to another team and dominate. Where’d his career end up??

I have no issue investing in our youth either with more senior game time, but no chance that happens when we’re still a chance of finals. The coaches clearly don’t believe some are ready and so our selected sides reflect that. The coaches know more than me and you and anyone else in here. You can disagree and scream about it all you want, but those are the facts.
 

MaxiBont

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You don’t get into winning positions with poor systems or game plans. It just doesn’t happen. If we were so poorly set up, we’d be well beaten for more of our games most weeks. This hasn’t been the case this year.

Even consecutive weeks of conceding back to back goals either side of really good football doesn’t suggest a system issue, It suggests a drop off of what we’re doing well. We just don’t play well enough for long enough in our games. It’s clear as day. And yes, that is a coaching issue.

As for developing players, that’s exactly what the VFL is for. Players that aren’t up to it straight from their drafts year develop in the 2’s. When the coaches believe they’re ready, they get a chance. When has this become such a controversial topic? Just because you believe Cleary should be playing every week, doesn’t mean he’s at that level yet. Saturdays game clearly showed he’s still got a while to go before he’s a lock in the side. The coaches clearly have a better understanding of where he’s at with his footy. It’s silly for supporters to scream injustice every week around some of these selections when chances are they have no idea exactly where the players are at with their football.

Same thing happened with Lucas Webb, supporters lost their s**t every week claiming the coaches didn’t know what they were doing and were tipping him to go to another team and dominate. Where’d his career end up??

I have no issue investing in our youth either with more senior game time, but no chance that happens when we’re still a chance of finals. The coaches clearly don’t believe some are ready and so our selected sides reflect that. The coaches know more than me and you and anyone else in here. You can disagree and scream about it all you want, but those are the facts.


1. I agree - However, when our game plan and system stops working we have no Plan B and can't make adjustments, this severely limits how effective our structure, system and game plan is. A great system is an adaptable one and we don't have that.

2. It's not a drop off when we're doing well, it's the opposition team doing something about it. E.g Ward going to Bont in the GWS game, this was a great coaching move by Kingsley and something Bevo never does.

3. VFL is good to an extent but players need to develop in AFL to reach their potential. Obviously the coaches have a better grasp of a player but I believe that as a fan who watches our VFL and AFL games that I have a good idea at what players can bring etc. Dureya is past it and doesn't deserve to be in the 22 atm - we can't have him starting next year. - I know you won't agree with this point so lets just leave it.

Cleary is not a like for like replacement but when Bevo has played Lobb on the wing I don't know why he doesn't try something fresh in defence, especially one that is in desperate need of youth. This coaching team has a habit of giving young players 1-2 games in the AFL per season and keeping middle aged battlers in i.e Hannah, McComb. These players such as Cleary may not be special in the long run but they deserve a chance when having decent games in the AFL.

To your last point, I don't care that the coaches know more than me, I can still have my own opinions and this is literally a forum for having opinions. I can have a moan if I want to have a moan. Just because the coaches do something doesn't mean I have to support it and definitely doesn't mean it's the best decision.
 

Charlie Bucket

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1. I agree - However, when our game plan and system stops working we have no Plan B and can't make adjustments, this severely limits how effective our structure, system and game plan is. A great system is an adaptable one and we don't have that.

2. It's not a drop off when we're doing well, it's the opposition team doing something about it. E.g Ward going to Bont in the GWS game, this was a great coaching move by Kingsley and something Bevo never does.

3. VFL is good to an extent but players need to develop in AFL to reach their potential. Obviously the coaches have a better grasp of a player but I believe that as a fan who watches our VFL and AFL games that I have a good idea at what players can bring etc. Dureya is past it and doesn't deserve to be in the 22 atm - we can't have him starting next year. - I know you won't agree with this point so lets just leave it.

Cleary is not a like for like replacement but when Bevo has played Lobb on the wing I don't know why he doesn't try something fresh in defence, especially one that is in desperate need of youth. This coaching team has a habit of giving young players 1-2 games in the AFL per season and keeping middle aged battlers in i.e Hannah, McComb. These players such as Cleary may not be special in the long run but they deserve a chance when having decent games in the AFL.

To your last point, I don't care that the coaches know more than me, I can still have my own opinions and this is literally a forum for having opinions. I can have a moan if I want to have a moan. Just because the coaches do something doesn't mean I have to support it and definitely doesn't mean it's the best decision.

(1) I’m clearly not getting through. Our system doesn’t all of a sudden stop working, we just drop away from executing it as required hence the mid game drop offs. Why would we look for a Plan B when the players aren’t executing Plan A as they should? It’s a coaches job to have the players play as per plans and system. If it’s working for large parts of games for most weeks, it’s an execution issue, not a systems issue. All teams have ups and downs in games where both teams have control for periods. Our issue is that when we lose control, we’ve got too soft an underbelly to get it back on our terms. It’s not because our system is s**t because we’d struggle to have any control at all during games if that was the case.

(2) This is just not true. Firstly Bont was tagged from qtr time, why’d it take till halfway through the 3rd for GWS to get on top? What you’re saying makes no sense. You’re also suggesting that evey game we’ve dropped away in this year is because of some genius move the opposition coach has made. That’s just ludicrous.

(3) We just disagree on this and I’m not going to keep going around in circles with it.


(4) Knock yourself out 👍
 

BeMoreBont

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What form does Vandermeer have as a small forward to be picked for that role? I get it's a massive hole in our list, but surely he needs to show he can play decent footy in that role before being selected.

I mean he got picked ahead of West in that role last week ffs.

He got a bit of footy last week but just utterly butchered it.. Has zero composure. I liked how he was building as a defender.

Arty won't get us much footy, but he will cause more havoc and make composed smart decisions when he does get it.
 
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If we lose, winning vs Hawks and Eagles may not even be enough. Some teams around us have soft fixtures as well. Big trouble if we lose

With the Cats having a hard fixture, a real good chance our match vs them could be a battle for the last finals spot should we lose tomorrow.

And if it comes down to our game vs Cats to determine whether we make the 8 we all know how that will end

The only item to be determined is whether Dangerfield gets 3 votes or Stewart
 
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MaxiBont

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(1) I’m clearly not getting through. Our system doesn’t all of a sudden stop working, we just drop away from executing it as required hence the mid game drop offs. Why would we look for a Plan B when the players aren’t executing Plan A as they should? It’s a coaches job to have the players play as per plans and system. If it’s working for large parts of games for most weeks, it’s an execution issue, not a systems issue. All teams have ups and downs in games where both teams have control for periods. Our issue is that when we lose control, we’ve got too soft an underbelly to get it back on our terms. It’s not because our system is s**t because we’d struggle to have any control at all during games if that was the case.

(2) This is just not true. Firstly Bont was tagged from qtr time, why’d it take till halfway through the 3rd for GWS to get on top? What you’re saying makes no sense. You’re also suggesting that evey game we’ve dropped away in this year is because of some genius move the opposition coach has made. That’s just ludicrous.

(3) We just disagree on this and I’m not going to keep going around in circles with it.


(4) Knock yourself out 👍

1. Yes, our system does stop working - have you not watched us for the last 5 years? If Plan A doesn't work you obviously need a Plan B because the opposition are shutting down Plan A. You're not getting through because what you are saying isn't how AFL works. AFL is a momentum game where you have to control the other teams swings. We are the worst team at containing the opposition when they get on a role because we have no contingency for when there mid-field gets on a roll the floodgates open - this is a purely both a structural and system issue.

2. No it's even worse - the opposition coaches make simple moves that Bevo hasn't thought a way out of. I said it was a great coaching move not a genius one and it was a great coaching move because Bont was a lot more quiet.
 
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doggies ftw

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1. Yes, our system does stop working - have you not watched us for the last 5 years? If Plan A doesn't wok you obviously need a Plan B because the opposition are shutting down Plan A. You're not getting through because what you are saying isn't how AFL works. AFL is a momentum game where you have to control the other teams swings. We are the worst team at containing the opposition when they get on a role because we have no contingency for when there mid-field gets on a role.

2. No it's even worse - the opposition coaches make simple moves that Bevo hasn't thought a way out of. I said it was a great coaching move not a genius one and it was a great coaching move because Bont was a lot more quiet.
Spot on - There’s also the very real possibility that what’s being asked is just flat out unrealistic - very few teams can play the way they want to 100% of the time, and that’s where at different stages of a game we need to have different modes. We know we’re great when we’re on but I think there’s enough evidence now that that will never be maintained - we try to play champagne footy which has to be millimeter perfect, ie the overuse of the handball and high defensive press, sure it works great at times but when teams ramp up their pressure on us or start getting out the back we fall to s**t.

It’s just so simple & wrong to say oh the plans great but we just can’t execute for long enough, no lol if we can’t execute for long enough the plan is obviously fundamentally flawed.

I honestly think that if you plucked any half decent coach from the ammo’s who just put in place a traditional, basic football structure straight out of the 90s and stripped back all the bullshit from our game, we’ve got enough talent that we’d probably win more than we do now 😂
 

MaxiBont

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Spot on - There’s also the very real possibility that what’s being asked is just flat out unrealistic - very few teams can play the way they want to 100% of the time, and that’s where at different stages of a game we need to have different modes. We know we’re great when we’re on but I think there’s enough evidence now that that will never be maintained - we try to play champagne footy which has to be millimeter perfect, ie the overuse of the handball and high defensive press, sure it works great at times but when teams ramp up their pressure on us or start getting out the back we fall to s**t.

It’s just so simple & wrong to say oh the plans great but we just can’t execute for long enough, no lol if we can’t execute for long enough the plan is obviously fundamentally flawed.

I honestly think that if you plucked any half decent coach from the ammo’s who just put in place a traditional, basic football structure straight out of the 90s and stripped back all the bullshit from our game, we’ve got enough talent that we’d probably win more than we do now 😂

Brilliantly said mate, couldn’t agree more. Just hope we bring it tomorrow so my beers aren’t wasted…
 

Charlie Bucket

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1. Yes, our system does stop working - have you not watched us for the last 5 years? If Plan A doesn't work you obviously need a Plan B because the opposition are shutting down Plan A. You're not getting through because what you are saying isn't how AFL works. AFL is a momentum game where you have to control the other teams swings. We are the worst team at containing the opposition when they get on a role because we have no contingency for when there mid-field gets on a roll the floodgates open - this is a purely both a structural and system issue.

2. No it's even worse - the opposition coaches make simple moves that Bevo hasn't thought a way out of. I said it was a great coaching move not a genius one and it was a great coaching move because Bont was a lot more quiet.

I seriously don’t know why these discussions keep being had.

Football isn’t a game of chess that’s controlled by the coaches. Games don’t constantly change because of moves made by the coaches. Systems teams play to include knowing what to do when momentum shifts in different areas on the ground. Players know what to do, they train for it constantly and have a strong understanding of how and why games are playing out a certain way. So called Plan A’s incorporate all of this. To suggest our players play a way that doesn’t incorporate this is ridiculous.

Shifts in games happen because one team is executing better than the other. Be it the ability and experience of the list (a Geelong vs a North) or how well the coaches have the team drilled. Collingwood getting on top of teams late in games after being 5 goals down at 3qtrs time isn’t because of moves McRae makes. It happens because he’s great at having them find their best footy again when it matters late in games.

In your eyes, and a lot of others, momentum shifts happen because one coach makes a move and we don’t respond well because our coach doesn’t make his own move. That’s just ridiculous.

Just like your comment about Bont being tagged. It doesn’t make sense because it isn’t what changed the momentum of that game. What you said is straight up wrong. It’s clear that you don’t understand how football games are played out. Just like our mate doggies.

You talk about oppo mids getting a run on and our team not knowing what to do. What you’re suggesting is pretty silly. Of course our team knows what to do. The oppo team didn’t just bring out some sort of Flying V move that no one’s ever seen before. Our mids would know exactly what’s happening when it happens, and if it’s a case of not being able to negate it accordingly, it’s because they aren’t executing how they should. They don’t need a coach to make a move from the box to save them.

You clearly see the game differently to how it’s actually played out and will always take issue with our coaches when we’re losing because if it. Have a think about it next time the opposition get a run on and look at how our players are playing, rather than waiting for an apparent coaching move that doesn’t necessarily need to happen.
 
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MaxiBont

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I seriously don’t know why these discussions keep being had.

Football isn’t a game of chess that’s controlled by the coaches. Games don’t constantly change because of moves made by the coaches. Systems teams play to include knowing what to do when momentum shifts in different areas on the ground. Players know what to do, they train for it constantly and have a strong understanding of how and why games are playing out a certain way. So called Plan A’s incorporate all of this. To suggest our players play a way that doesn’t incorporate this is ridiculous.

Shifts in games happen because one team is executing better than the other. Be it the ability and experience of the list (a Geelong vs a North) or how well the coaches have the team drilled. Collingwood getting on top of teams late in games after being 5 goals down at 3qtrs time isn’t because of moves McRae makes. It happens because he’s great at having them find their best footy again when it matters late in games.

In your eyes, and a lot of others, momentum shifts happen because one coach makes a move and we don’t respond well because our coach doesn’t make his own move. That’s just ridiculous.

Just like your comment about Bont being tagged. It doesn’t make sense because it isn’t what changed the momentum of that game. What you said is straight up wrong. It’s clear that you don’t understand how football games are played out. Just like our mate doggies.

You talk about oppo mids getting a run on and our team not knowing what to do. What you’re suggesting is pretty silly. Of course our team knows what to do. The oppo team didn’t just bring out some sort of Flying V move that no one’s ever seen before. Our mids would know exactly what’s happening when it happens, and if it’s a case of not being able to negate it accordingly, it’s because they aren’t executing how they should. They don’t need a coach to make a move from the box to save them.

You clearly see the game differently to how it’s actually played out and will always take issue with our coaches when we’re losing because if it. Have a think about it next time the opposition get a run on and look at how our players are playing, rather than waiting for an apparent coaching move that doesn’t need to happen.

I never said Ward going to Bont changed the momentum of the game, I said Ward going to Bont was a great coaching move as it kept Bont quiet. Nullifying a teams best player is usually going to help a team win.

I never said momentum shifts happen because of one move that a coach makes - I said AFL is a game of momentum swings and the team that controls the swings the best usually win. It doesn't matter if we play great for 3 quarters if we give up a 7 goal run in one of the quarters, the system failed. Just because we played well in 3/4 quarters doesn't mean the system is effective. I agree, momentum shifts start by a team executing better, then it is the job of a coach and his in-game management + what he is coaching in training to deal with this. We are the worst ''good'' team in dealing with this and it's not like it's a one off, it's a constant pattern.

Of course players know and are trained with what do with a momentum shift but if the system is not adaptable and doesn't change then the players impact is greatly reduced. I know I keep talking about the Giants game as it was the most recent but look at this defensive position which is a byproduct of the system. Giants were kicking into the wind at this point and we were protecting a lead. We were playing the same high line in defence when we were up 35 that we were playing with 11 minutes left in Q4. Great coaching... I've attached images to show my point.

These pictures are not of a team trying to deal with a momentum shift with their 2 KPDs out. These pictures demonstrate a stubborn coach who doesn't know how to adjust when Plan A goes out the window. If you don't think this is a direct impact of coaching than I don't know what to tell you. This is not a team that is set up to protect a lead and this is not a team that is well drilled in these situations.

I'm going to leave it now because we are clearly not going to change each other's mind. Let's just hope the boys get up tonight.
 

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