Player Watch Charlie Dean

[31550]

we play a team & aggressive come forward zonal defence

I get all that, and we roll the dice every time with Moore playing as pretty much a CHF who lines up in the backline. It served us pretty well while we had Murphy because Murphy was able to both lock down on his opponent plus peel off and cover for Darcy when required. It appears that Dean is not a lockdown defender in the same mold as Murphy, but at best another intercept defender like Moore and Howe.
The obvious solution is that our most physically capable and skilled key position player (Moore) changes his role to a more defensive one until we have a suitable Murphy replacement. Team before individual. I don't see any other way. We will always struggle against teams with more than one gorilla forward. Without Murphy, we get beaten by just one gorilla unless our midfield and forwards can kick 20 goals plus.

 

[Mostfamousclub_Pies]

Just a wild suggestion, but maybe Moore could actually pick someone up for a change?

Stop being so ridiculous.

 

[Mollythedolly]

we play a team & aggressive come forward zonal defence

both the aggressive come-forward & zonal aspect of this strategy gives all our defenders latitude (license) to leave the man, in their immediate area (let's call them their current opponent), in order to pressure the oppo guy with the ball or oppo player next in line

ultimately, you're right though, the ball aint gonna kick itself through the big sticks, so the defenders need, at some point, to collapse back and pick up /defend a man

ps: for mine, Moore has been making some loose / poor calls about when to go and when to stay. coming off the most dangerous oppo tall forward to go and pressure a mid up on a flank / wing, when it's highly unlikely you'll get there in time or impact in any way, is poor judgement &/or lazy

Against the Swans it was more a case that they were leaving their opponent on offence rather than defence, and getting burned on turnover. Retain the footy and the swarm works and looks good. On turnover, not so much. Not saying it didn’t happen on defence.

 

[Robroy22]

I'd be leaving Charlie in again...whether we wanna realise it or not we might be needing a Murph replacement full time soon so playing this bloke (who IS a defender) can only be good for his development long term. Bring Frampton in for AJ and play them both (Dean and Frampton) down back and let Howe or even Moore have some time forward if they're needed. Long term thinking needed atm, not the bandaids we've been trying for years (Kreuger, Kelly, Goldy and Ruckmen as full forwards....sheesh)

 

[CheckerTrade666]

Hopefully we haven’t seen the last of him at senior level. Just needs an injury free and consistent bulk of games in the VFL. Was thrown right in the deep end in his first 2 games without playing much VFL in the past 2 years.

 

[ElliottsMaggies]

Hopefully we haven’t seen the last of him at senior level. Just needs an injury free and consistent bulk of games in the VFL. Was thrown right in the deep end in is first 2 games without playing very little VFL in the past 2 years.

He'll be back, no doubt about it. Only played 2 AFL games & 3 VFL in the past 2 years.

 

[Kappa]

Needs another preseason in the gym, hopefully that fixes his 1 on 1 issues.

Was played way too early

 

[sr36]

Murphy's role in that defence has been so under-rated and his impact on the team's performance has also been relatively glossed over.

He's so unique in his ability to play on talls / mediums and the most dangerous forward, close space & cover gaps, come across as 3rd man up to kill contests, organise the entire backline, play with flagrant disregard for his own safety ..

At round 9 (2022) we were 4 wins / 5 losses and Murphy hadn't played a single game. Murphy plays round 10 (2022) onwards and we win 12 of the next 13 H&A games and 1 of 3 finals (albeit 1st Qual vs Geelong, we were mightily unlucky).

Murphy plays all of 2023 (bar one game) and we win 20 of 25 including 3 of 3 finals.

In terms of backstops / fill-ins or slower burns that would need time:

• WHE has been playing (spent some time) as the 7th defender in the backline end of last & start of this year but he's more of a tweener who can perhaps play on flankers
• Reef is the one i'd look at - depending on how he performs up forward. He has the physical attributes (194 cm/90kg vs Murphy 192 cm/90kg; incl. size & speed, developing core) to be able to play down back in that type of hybrid tall /medium athletic defender. But does he have the smarts to learn the system, ability to read the game, and discipline / courage to impact contests (3rd man up) etc ..would need to be given time!

Murphy's value isn't about his physical traits - you don't look for a physical like for like. He's all about reading the play, judgement, timing and intent in a contest. His strengths are all above his shoulders - not his physical traits.

I think Dean looks a good prospect - he looks like he reads it really well, but he needs to attack contests. I think he's going to be a good one once he develops more strength and confidence.

 

[Mostfamousclub_Pies]

Murphy's value isn't about his physical traits - you don't look for a physical like for like. He's all about reading the play, judgement, timing and intent in a contest. His strengths are all above his shoulders - not his physical traits.

I think Dean looks a good prospect - he looks like he reads it really well, but he needs to attack contests. I think he's going to be a good one once he develops more strength and confidence.

Murphy is quick though. I don’t think Dean has much pace, and you can’t teach that.

 

[sr36]

Murphy is quick though. I don’t think Dean has much pace, and you can’t teach that.

Is Murphy quick? He's not Moore or Howe. I think he gets there through judgement timing and desperation. Dean was getting there. He just wasn't doing anything when there.

 

[31550]

Is Murphy quick? He's not Moore or Howe. I think he gets there through judgement timing and desperation. Dean was getting there. He just wasn't doing anything when there.

When Murphy gets to a contest his courage and determination is elite level. He is athletic and strong, physically and mentally. Dean has the physical attributes, (possibly needs to develop upper body strength), seems to read the play well, but has failed to impact on contests - fallen over a couple of times. I think Dean can improve, but maybe not immediately. Howe is not far from retirement, and Dean might step up to take his role eventually.
The immediate problem is "No Murphy, no Collingwood", and this has placed (possibly unfair) pressure on Dean. We don't have a solution - it's not Dean. We'll see how we go with Frampton in the backline - he's played there before and has the size and strength.

 

[sam_e]

Is Murphy quick? He's not Moore or Howe. I think he gets there through judgement timing and desperation. Dean was getting there. He just wasn't doing anything when there.

Howe is the slowest of our defenders by some margin and Dean would be challenging him for that mantle.

On exposed form, Dean seems ok at reading the play / ball coming in but has been rudely outbodied by his opponents (talls and mediums incl Heeney). He also seems to lack any 'ping" (vertical leap) in a pack situation, failing to launch with any intent in order to spoil.

Now, 2 games into an afl career after the better part of 2 years in rehab 'aint the type of lead-in that "sets you up for success" so he has time to work on his craft.

Murphy OTOH is all things high footy IQ, excellent reader of the play, quick & strong (for his size), inch perfect timing, plays effectively on talls & medium opponents and fearless beyond measure. He is a massive loss.

Howe will likely retire at the end of this year when his contract expires so Dean / Eyre developing &/or emerging as reasonable prospects is kinda a must.

 

[sr36]

Howe is the slowest of our defenders by some margin and Dean would be challenging him for that mantle.

On exposed form, Dean seems ok at reading the play / ball coming in but has been rudely outbodied by his opponents (talls and mediums incl Heeney). He also seems to lack any 'ping" (vertical leap) in a pack situation, failing to launch with any intent in order to spoil.

Now, 2 games into an afl career after the better part of 2 years in rehab 'aint the type of lead-in that "sets you up for success" so he has time to work on his craft.

Murphy OTOH is all things high footy IQ, excellent reader of the play, quick & strong (for his size), inch perfect timing, plays effectively on talls & medium opponents and fearless beyond measure. He is a massive loss.

Howe will likely retire at the end of this year when his contract expires so Dean / Eyre developing &/or emerging as reasonable prospects is kinda a must.

Maybe he's slowed down and I'm still thinking of the younger Howe, but he used to be be really quick. Him and Langers used to close from nowhere near the contest.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

The immediate problem is "No Murphy, no Collingwood", and this has placed (possibly unfair) pressure on Dean. We don't have a solution - it's not Dean. We'll see how we go with Frampton in the backline - he's played there before and has the size and strength.

We beat Brisbane by 8 points after Murphy went off in the GF, and that was without McStay, and Frampton absent from the backline. I don’t think it’s a case of “no Murphy, no Collingwood”.

 

[31550]

We beat Brisbane by 8 points after Murphy went off in the GF, and that was without McStay, and Frampton absent from the backline. I don’t think it’s a case of “no Murphy, no Collingwood”.

It took an extraordinary performance to win that game and it went down to the wire. Our win/loss ratio with/ without Murphy illustrates my point. Frampton didn't play back but he did play a defensive role in the GF, negating Andrews.
We've lost poorly to GWS and Sydney, in part due to poor defensive structure and execution, inability to negate key forwards. Murphy is a critical, arguably irreplaceable part of our defensive structure.

 

[Abdul_The_Bull]

Howe is the slowest of our defenders by some margin and Dean would be challenging him for that mantle.

On exposed form, Dean seems ok at reading the play / ball coming in but has been rudely outbodied by his opponents (talls and mediums incl Heeney). He also seems to lack any 'ping" (vertical leap) in a pack situation, failing to launch with any intent in order to spoil.

Now, 2 games into an afl career after the better part of 2 years in rehab 'aint the type of lead-in that "sets you up for success" so he has time to work on his craft.

Murphy OTOH is all things high footy IQ, excellent reader of the play, quick & strong (for his size), inch perfect timing, plays effectively on talls & medium opponents and fearless beyond measure. He is a massive loss.

Howe will likely retire at the end of this year when his contract expires so Dean / Eyre developing &/or emerging as reasonable prospects is kinda a must.

Whilst I generally agree with your assessment of Charlie Dean, it's worth pointing out that being outbodied by Heeney is not unforgivable. Heeney has beaten many solid defenders, including Bruzzy, and he is very underrated for his strength and positioning abilities.

 

[Bianconeri]

Murphy's value isn't about his physical traits - you don't look for a physical like for like. He's all about reading the play, judgement, timing and intent in a contest. His strengths are all above his shoulders - not his physical traits.

I think Dean looks a good prospect - he looks like he reads it really well, but he needs to attack contests. I think he's going to be a good one once he develops more strength and confidence.

I think you’re underrating Murphy’s strength. Doesn’t get moved off the ball one on one but agree with your point.

 

[gouki88]

Whilst I generally agree with your assessment of Charlie Dean, it's worth pointing out that being outbodied by Heeney is not unforgivable. Heeney has beaten many solid defenders, including Bruzzy, and he is very underrated for his strength and positioning abilities.

Heeney is similar to De Goey - heaps of grunt

 

[Mostfamousclub_Pies]

The mere fact that there is so much discussion about this bloke, suggests that there isn’t much else in the way of up and coming defenders.

 

[31550]

The mere fact that there is so much discussion about this bloke, suggests that there isn’t much else in the way of up and coming defenders.

None available, and those unavailable have been discussed.

 

[ElliottsMaggies]

If other teams can win & be competitive with key personnel missing, I can't see why we can't. We did it last year.

Sure Murphy and McStay are a loss, but we've won without them before. It's those who are on the field & playing who are our problem & need to lift.

Starting with JDG, Crisp, Moore, IQ, Jaicos etc etc.

Dean wasn't THE problem. Nor was AJ.

 

[gouki88]

The mere fact that there is so much discussion about this bloke, suggests that there isn’t much else in the way of up and coming defenders.

Almost as if his competitors are injured

 

[sr36]

If other teams can win & be competitive with key personnel missing, I can't see why we can't. We did it last year.

Sure Murphy and McStay are a loss, but we've won without them before. It's those who are on the field & playing who are our problem & need to lift.

Starting with JDG, Crisp, Moore, IQ, Jaicos etc etc.

Dean wasn't THE problem. Nor was AJ.

Yeah - the Sydney game was about our turnovers and getting out-pressured and not being able to apply enough pressure on their mids. Plugger and Scarlett weren't going to get us across the line in that game. Particularly as Plugger is ******* old for a footballer.

 

[31550]

If other teams can win & be competitive with key personnel missing, I can't see why we can't. We did it last year.

Sure Murphy and McStay are a loss, but we've won without them before. It's those who are on the field & playing who are our problem & need to lift.

Starting with JDG, Crisp, Moore, IQ, Jaicos etc etc.

Dean wasn't THE problem. Nor was AJ.

You had me until the last sentence.

 

[Anzacday]

no Murphy, no Collingwood

Might be appropriate to say no Murphy and Darcy is lost at sea.