Chicago Bulls '90's..VS..LA Lakers '00's

[jod23]

Originally posted by Danny Chook Fan Club
jod, there's a very simple way to see how good Pippen is, and that's to look at his record without Michael Jordan in the same side. That would be 1994, most of 1995, and post 1998.

The simple fact is that Pippen has achieved absolutely nothing in the game without having Jordan to hold his hand.

Case closed.

Do not undersell any of those names above. K Malone, Stockton, Olajuwon & O'Neal need no introduction, and if you can find anyone else to tell me that Pippen is better than the first three, then I'm all ears.

Wes Unseld remains the only player other than Chamberlain to win the MVP in his first year. Washington was a pathetic side when Unseld was drafted, never having had a winning season. He instantly made them contenders, much like Bill Russell in Boston a decade before. Unseld was 6'7", like Pippen. Unlike Pippen, he played centre, against blokes with names like Chamberlain, Alcindor/Abdul-Jabbar, etc, all taller and infinetely more talented than the pathetic crop of small forwards that Pippen has played against in his career.

Bob Pettit was, before Karl Malone, the greatest power forward in the game, and the first player to score 20,000 points. Is Pippen the second best small forward ever? Not in my view.

Bill Walton is probably only just better than Pippen in my view, but I rate him higher because he made his teams better, which I'm yet to see Pippen do.

George Mikan literally changed the way the game is played, and was the first truly great basketballer in the NBA. He literally dominated his era, which doesn't deserve to be discounted just because it was a long time ago. We don't dismiss Gordon Coventry or John Coleman because they played before most of us were born.

Moses Malone performed at an extraordinary high level for twenty years. Long before it was the norm, Malone skipped college entirely but was an instant star in the ABA. Despite playing two full seasons in the ABA, he still managed to be the fifth highest scorer in NBA history over his illustrious career.

These aren't just names off the top of my head jod, these are men who, in their own right and without riding on the coattails of a greater teammate, made their own place in basketball history. Respect them, as you are always asking others to respect your hero.

Full of CRAP!!! Pippen post Jordan era hasnt been that good because he is past his best. (just like Ewing Olajuwon ect) In the years Jordan was retired Pippen took them to the Eastern Conference Finals only to lose to the Knicks who boasted Ewing in his prime and co in 7!! You telling me that aint a big effort!

With Jordan it took them over the hump of Ewing and whoever was waiting in the West. Thats what made Pip and Mike such a formidable team. Pippen took them that far without JORDAN!!! He is one of the best players the world has ever known and i have accepted that none of you LL's (Laker Lovers) will ever recognise him as the absolute legend he is!!

Pippen is in a class above Stockton, Malone, O'Neal and Olajuwon. Combine them together and they still dont have as many championships as Pip. Lets be honest Hakeem only has titles cos MJ retired, he would never have won them if Mike stayed on. The Bulls would have got 8 in a row to tie the Celtics record. No doubt.

O'Neal lucks out and gets his championships when there are no great players left and Malone and Stockton were never good enough to get the ultimate goal because MJ and Pip were always there to deny them. Stockton fair enough is the all time leader in assists and steals but he only leads them because he has played for soooooooo long. Magic was a better passer and Mo Cheeks, and Mike were better stealers than Stockton ever was. (MJ 98 Finals, last game, STEALS it off Malone runs the floor, nails an 18 footer for the championship)

You also have to remember that O'Neal and Malone and Olajuwon all got to finals from having great support. Pippen never had that support after MJ left. O'Neal has Kobe, Malone had Stockton, Hornacek ect. As i have said many many times, you need 2 great players to win championships nowadays. Pippen is one of the greatest players the world has ever known and if you give him credit then great, if not then thats your warped opinion.

I give a certain amount of credit to players like Unseld and Mikan but the game was different then, like you said Unseld played centre an 6'7! Today that is unheard of. Its hard to judge players from the past and present but one thing is certain... Jordan is better than ALL. Pippen is close but open to debate. Basketball is about winning like all sports and Pippen won a lot...blame it on Jordan for his winning but bottom line he won and MJ wouldnt have won as much as he did without Pippen.

Petit??? Big deal he was the first person to crack 20,000. Someone had to do it and he did it, many people have surpassed it, and Pippen is the second best small forward ever (behind the great Larry Bird) no question.

Walton did make his teammates better but so did Pip. Pippen dished out assists, grabbed boards and steals and had a genuine leadership role. Players looked up to him, Pippen was the man and if you think he didnt make players around him better then you are ignorant!

Moses was great but he was a workhorse through and through!! Pippen had more grace and style and could certainly score and dominate games more than Malone ever could. Sure Malone got MVP's but Pippen could never get them cos MJ was always claiming them. Once again Malone needed that flair from Dr J to get his championship. Malone 1 ... Pippen 6..

As you say riding on the coattails?? What the??? Mikan dominated as you said because he was the first guy to really stand out. He had no peer in his time. Karl Malone had Stockton and still couldnt win. Moses had Dr J and Mo Cheeks and still only got 1. Walton got his with the Blazers in the weakest of decades.. the 70's.

These guys off the top of your head aint good enough. Magic, Bird, Chamberlain, Russell, Isiah, fair enough. But the guys you mentioned are hacks compared to the great Scottie Pippen.

Oh and once again you just referred to the Micheal issue. Leave MJ out and respect the greatness that is Scottie Pippen.

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by carb70


HA HA, I've read it all now. Jod are you sure your'e not Scottie Pippen?.

Jod or should I call you Scottie. If he/you is such a great player then why hasn't Portland won a NBA championship since he/you has been there. It's not like Portland are a bad team, there are quite a few good players there who Scootie can take the pressure off for.

This confirms that you know nothing about Pro Ball. Jordan has time and time again said to the public that Pip takes the pressure off. And its obvious to see in the games. Jordan can sit for lengthy periods of time while Pippen keeps them in the game.

The reason Pippen hasnt won a title yet without MJ is because Portland suck. Plain and simple. Too many stars demanding the ball and so forth. How can a team play with Wallace, Pippen, Stoudamire, Smith, Detlef, Sabonis, Wells, ect ect. They have so many stars they dont know how to play like a team. You dont need that many stars, it only serves to disrupt the team.

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by DEVO


It's because whenever Portland come up against the Lakers, Scottie is always outplayed by.... Horace Grant

Gloat all you want. Pippen, Ewing, Robinson, Richmond, Olajuwon arent the players they used to be. Its called AGE. Stick O'Neal back in the early 90's and watch him get beaten night in night out... in fact since he entered in 94 he has been beaten night in night out.

He just waited out players like MJ, Pip, Ewing and co until they got old and crap and retired.

 

[Danny Chook Fan Club]

Originally posted by jod23
Stockton fair enough is the all time leader in assists and steals but he only leads them because he has played for soooooooo long.

Speaking of ignorance (which seems to be your special topic), Stockton took the lead in these categories more than five years ago. He's now so far in front in both of those categories that it is likely he will never be caught in either stat.

Btw, Bill Russell is the greatest basketballer of all-time, not Michael Jordan. We could start having that argument again, but I fear anyone that doesn't share your opinions is going to get the Dan25 treatment, so I'll just leave Jordan to have his say:

"Bill Russell is the game's greatest living legend. No-one has influenced the game of basketball more than Bill."

 

[carb70]

Originally posted by jod23


This confirms that you know nothing about Pro Ball. Jordan has time and time again said to the public that Pip takes the pressure off. And its obvious to see in the games. Jordan can sit for lengthy periods of time while Pippen keeps them in the game.

The reason Pippen hasnt won a title yet without MJ is because Portland suck. Plain and simple. Too many stars demanding the ball and so forth. How can a team play with Wallace, Pippen, Stoudamire, Smith, Detlef, Sabonis, Wells, ect ect. They have so many stars they dont know how to play like a team. You dont need that many stars, it only serves to disrupt the team.

Jod you are a fool, I know nothing about pro ball. Maybe you should take a look in your own back yard before you start accusing others. Maybe it's about time you started to realise that the NBA is not just about MJ, Scottie and the Chicago Bulls of the 90's. Who really gives a S H I T about a team that played last century it over move on.

You go on about how Michael said time and time again how Pip took pressure off him, BIG DEAL. Michael isn't going to criticise one of his team mates to the public is he?. He was way to professional to do that. We all know he didn't get on well with Rodman and I can't remember him saying anything bad about him to the public.

You also go on about how Olajuwon only won his 2 titles because Michael retired, BULL****. He won his titles because he was the best player in the league and Housten were the best team. The title isn't awarded to a team at the start of the year, you actually got to go out and win it and Housten where the best team in those years not Chicago. Infact if I remember correctley Jordan was around when the Rockets won their second title.

Then you say Stocken only has his assist and steals records because he played so long. The fact he has played in the top league for so long must say that the guy could actually play. Does that mean the Kareems points scoring record doesn't mean anything because he played so long. It doesn't make sense.

Finally I don't really care for your opinion on Shaq anymore because the guy has nothing else to prove. He has done it all and most importantly he has done it playing for the great LA Lakers the greatest franchise in NBA history.

 

[DEVO]

Originally posted by jod23


Gloat all you want. Pippen, Ewing, Robinson, Richmond, Olajuwon arent the players they used to be. Its called AGE. Stick O'Neal back in the early 90's and watch him get beaten night in night out... in fact since he entered in 94 he has been beaten night in night out.

He just waited out players like MJ, Pip, Ewing and co until they got old and crap and retired.

Jordan did the same with Magic and Bird.

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by Danny Chook Fan Club
Speaking of ignorance (which seems to be your special topic), Stockton took the lead in these categories more than five years ago. He's now so far in front in both of those categories that it is likely he will never be caught in either stat.

Btw, Bill Russell is the greatest basketballer of all-time, not Michael Jordan. We could start having that argument again, but I fear anyone that doesn't share your opinions is going to get the Dan25 treatment, so I'll just leave Jordan to have his say:

"Bill Russell is the game's greatest living legend. No-one has influenced the game of basketball more than Bill."

Stockton is the all time leader in assists and steals because he has played longer. As is the case with Kareem and scoring. Magic has a better career average in assists than Stockton so it is fair to say that if Magic had of played as many years as Stockton then he would be the all time leader. Same with scoring, Jordan has the best all time scoring average, if he played as many years as Kareem he would have surpassed him

Oh and unlike Shaq, Jordan doesnt and never has proclaimed to be the best player ever, he has modesty. But every one but MJ knows he is the greatest.

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by carb70


Jod you are a fool, I know nothing about pro ball. Maybe you should take a look in your own back yard before you start accusing others. Maybe it's about time you started to realise that the NBA is not just about MJ, Scottie and the Chicago Bulls of the 90's. Who really gives a S H I T about a team that played last century it over move on.

You go on about how Michael said time and time again how Pip took pressure off him, BIG DEAL. Michael isn't going to criticise one of his team mates to the public is he?. He was way to professional to do that. We all know he didn't get on well with Rodman and I can't remember him saying anything bad about him to the public.

You also go on about how Olajuwon only won his 2 titles because Michael retired, BULL****. He won his titles because he was the best player in the league and Housten were the best team. The title isn't awarded to a team at the start of the year, you actually got to go out and win it and Housten where the best team in those years not Chicago. Infact if I remember correctley Jordan was around when the Rockets won their second title.

Then you say Stocken only has his assist and steals records because he played so long. The fact he has played in the top league for so long must say that the guy could actually play. Does that mean the Kareems points scoring record doesn't mean anything because he played so long. It doesn't make sense.

Finally I don't really care for your opinion on Shaq anymore because the guy has nothing else to prove. He has done it all and most importantly he has done it playing for the great LA Lakers the greatest franchise in NBA history.

OH CMON!! Theres no way in the world Olajuwon and the Rockets would have beaten the Bulls if Jordan had stuck around. And im not dissing Stockton, i think he is prolly one of the best 5 or 6 point guards to ever play the game.

 

[Danny Chook Fan Club]

Name four better point guards than Stockton then jod.

 

[coxon]

hmmm... as a pure point guard...

stockton...

dont think u can name anyone better than him, other than Magic..

only things counting against stockton, as compared to magic.. would be scoring ability, versatility (unfair really, cos he's giving up 8inches or so), and championship rings...

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by Danny Chook Fan Club
Name four better point guards than Stockton then jod.

Easy.

Magic Johnson - All NBA 1st team 9 times. 3 time MVP (1987,89,90) 3 times NBA Finals MVP (1980,82,87) Led the LA Lakers to 5 NBA championships.

Isiah Thomas - All NBA 1st team 3 times. NBA Finals MVP in 1990. Led the Detroit Pistons to 2 NBA championships in 1989 and 1990.

Bob Cousy - Led the league in assists 8 times. All NBA 1st team 10 times. 1957 MVP. Led Boston to 6 NBA championships (1957, 59-63)

Jerry West - All NBA 1st team 10 times. NBA Finals MVP 1969. Led LA Lakers to NBA championship in 1972.

 

[coxon]

hmmm.. very good jod !~

i was close to mentioning isiah in my above post...

i think the thing that counts against stockton, are the ringless fingers.... its just bad luck that he played in the same era as THE greatest player ever...

couldnt really use the argument that stockton didnt have the star players Magic, West, and Cousy got to play alongside...
but with karl malone.. surely they had the ability to win....

look at isiah.. his pistons team was filled with less talent.. just great teamwork, and tough role players...

but yeah.. great reply jod..

 

[ant]

Too true coxon. It's so hard to compare players from different eras, when you compare statistics, awards and the like, it's often unfair and impossible to do. One thing that does stick out though is the number of rings they have, the ability to make their team a winner. It separates the absolute champions from the great players. I don't mean to denigrate Stockton, he's still a wonderful player and one of the best point guards to ever play, but as you said, the lack of championships does count against him IMHO.

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by coxon
hmmm.. very good jod !~

i was close to mentioning isiah in my above post...

i think the thing that counts against stockton, are the ringless fingers.... its just bad luck that he played in the same era as THE greatest player ever...

couldnt really use the argument that stockton didnt have the star players Magic, West, and Cousy got to play alongside...
but with karl malone.. surely they had the ability to win....

look at isiah.. his pistons team was filled with less talent.. just great teamwork, and tough role players...

but yeah.. great reply jod..

Thank you I agree with you it is the lack of Rings that will never make Stockton a legend or great of the game. Im not demeaning him, in his own right he was a great player but the four point guards i mentioned were far better.

Those guys knew what it took and knew how to win. Stockton could never get his team over the hump. Although he had the misfortune of playing his best years against MJ. Also agree that he played with arguably the best power forward to ever play and still couldnt win one so it wasnt like he didnt have talent.

Anyway im looking forward to DCFC's reponse to my evidence.

 

[Danny Chook Fan Club]

I dispute that Jerry West was a point guard in the purest sense. He was a better player than Stockton - just.

I'd rate them as follows:
1 - Johnson
2 - West (even though I wouldn't have him on the list)
Eq 3 - Stockton
Eq 3 - Cousy





5 - Thomas. Good, but just not in the same league as those four in my view.

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by Danny Chook Fan Club
I dispute that Jerry West was a point guard in the purest sense. He was a better player than Stockton - just.

I'd rate them as follows:
1 - Johnson
2 - West (even though I wouldn't have him on the list)
Eq 3 - Stockton
Eq 3 - Cousy





5 - Thomas. Good, but just not in the same league as those four in my view.

Are you kidding me????

Thomas is quite possibly the second greatest point guard of all time. Have you ever seen him play??? How can Stockton be a better point guard when he couldnt lead his team to the promised land. Isiah Thomas not only led the Pistons to back to back titles, he did with Jordan, Bird and Magic all playing some of there best ball.

Not only that he had very little help, barring the great Joey D (Joe Dumars) who could score and score and was also one of the best defensive guards in his era. Rodman was young and skinny, Laimbeer was your classic workhorse, Vinnie was a role player, Salley was an able centre.....

Stockton on the other hand had possibly the best 4 man in the game ever?? Add to that Jeff Hornacek who was a great scorer, couple of good role players in Russell and Anderson and Eisley but still couldnt get the job done.

Sure Stockton has more assists and steals but he didnt get what is important. Thomas did twice!

No contest.

West and Cousy are difficult to Judge as they were from different era's but you cant argue Cousy's 6! championships. West also got to the top of the hill and got an NBA Finals MVP.

Cmon DCFC you cant deny the facts. You asked for four better point guards and i gave them to you. Im not putting down Stockton i think in all probability he comes right under those four.

 

[coxon]

yeapp..

not many little guys... point guards LEAD their teams to championships.... as far as i can remember, isiah has been the only one..

thats why i got excited this year, seeing iverson & the 76ers play the way they did....


on the other end of the spectrum, anyone see the news about Manute Bol ? has hit upon hard times... just recently managed to get out of his war torn home of sudan.. now hoping to get back to the states... ah... what a man... heard he once killed a lion with his bare hands... haha..

 

[jod23]

Bol what a legend!!

I once saw him block four shots in a row. He just kept blocking the guy, the guy kept getting it back and getting blocked again! Very funny.