Chris Judd - The Crime and the Punishment - 4 Weeks

Jan 31, 2007
27,310
15,514
In N Out
AFL Club
Carlton
You do understand that if simply having Carazzo press down causes Adams' shoulder to pop, then Judd was in fact pulling vigorously and far in excess of that required to simply 'hold the arm out of the way'?

That's simply not how the body works mate. You've got it wrong. There needn't have been any pulling from Judd to have caused the shoulder to twist or pop. He needed only to have applied force required to hold the arm stable while Carrots then pushed the shoulder into the turf twisting it beyond normal ROM.
 

jonbe54

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 18, 2009
20,742
17,222
Rural paradise
AFL Club
Collingwood
That's simply not how the body works mate. You've got it wrong. There needn't have been any pulling from Judd to have caused the shoulder to twist or pop. He needed only to have applied force required to hold the arm stable while Carrots then pushed the shoulder into the turf.
Whatever the mechanics and force involved the action was recklessly dangerous in a pack situation with the receiver unable to move to alleviate the pressure. At the very best interpretation its totally reckless.
 
Jan 31, 2007
27,310
15,514
In N Out
AFL Club
Carlton
Whatever the mechanics and force involved the action was recklessly dangerous in a pack situation with the receiver unable to move to alleviate the pressure. At the very best interpretation its totally reckless.

Totally agree. Reckless and deserving of suspension. Should not be seen on a football field.

Anyone who sees the fallacy of both extremes is automatically closer to the truth monkey.

Hahahaha. That's me :eek::D
 
Jul 19, 2005
14,271
10,466
Perth
AFL Club
West Coast
Dislike of Carlton has nothing to do with Carlton board moderation. What a cop out. You just admitted you aren't one that has been banned from the board, so how do you explain your dislike? Weak mate.

So if you disagree with the severity of something or the classification of something, you lack humility? I'm guessing Eagles fans were totally fine with Cousins' 12 month suspension? You are surely having a lend.

Do you know what a fact is?

With a free arm, it doesn't take much to partially raise the body and attempt to strike at the ball under you. With the arm held, you are right, he was in no position to do so.

You are expressing an opinion as to intent, and yes it is the prevailing opinion, but that doesn't make it absolute. It is not laughable to offer up other possibilities. Feel free to disagree but why would you want to stifle that discussion?

Simple. Why the dislike? Because here you are asking people to be open to other opinions and possibilities yet the Carlton board (under your moderation) is one of the least open, most restrictive boards on this site.

You are a total hypocrite.

Yes the fact is Judd got less from the tribunal then he would of gotten from the MRP. Again do the math on intential, severe, body contact with 30% loading and tell me if it adds up to 4 weeks. I think we both know the answer to that.

So Adams is going to lift his body and Carazzo's body with one arm, the with his other break Carazzo's two hand hold pinning the ball to his body? I mean are you for real? Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds? Yet this is what your 'alternate possibilities' boil down to.

Who said anything about stifling discussion? You see me locking threads and banning people for having a differing opinion? This isn't the Carlton board mate.

What I am doing is ridiculing your blatantly self serving justifications that fly in the face of logic and physics.

If you can't handle that you can always run back to your little fiefdom and hide.
 

Noidenous

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 2, 2012
8,315
9,641
Climbing out your mum's window
AFL Club
St Kilda
Other Teams
Green Bay Packers, Manchester UTD
That's simply not how the body works mate. You've got it wrong. There needn't have been any pulling from Judd to have caused the shoulder to twist or pop. He needed only to have applied force required to hold the arm stable while Carrots then pushed the shoulder into the turf twisting it beyond normal ROM.
That's where you need to go back to Physics class.

Anchoring something and applying force is still considered pulling. If you grab a cat's tail and hold it without moving while it tries to walk off, you're still pulling its tail. The common misconception is that only the cat is pulling as 'it's the cat's action' causing the dislocation of its tail. The hook and the carcass pull on eachother and the pulling is caused by gravity.

However, we both know he wasn't simply anchoring the arm.
 

Hodgepodge

Hall of Famer
Suspended
30k Posts 10k Posts
Apr 28, 2008
45,892
11,575
Erin Riley's air mattress
AFL Club
Hawthorn
On your first point the umpire had not blown his whistle so the game had not technically stopped.

Adams was sufficiently incapacitated that Judd's action was extraneous. Whether or not the whistle was blown there wasn't a need for him to hold onto Leigh Adams arm, much less pull it back, that was equal to the risk taken in the action.

That's why it doesn't really matter whether his action was to harm or to hinder.
 
Jan 31, 2007
27,310
15,514
In N Out
AFL Club
Carlton
That's where you need to go back to Physics class ... Anchoring something and applying force is still considered pulling.

Bah! Pulling is applying force to cause motion. If you want to fault that usage I'm happy to go find you a dozen sources that say it's perfectly correct.

However, we both know he wasn't simply anchoring the arm.

I don't really get this comment. Probably neither of us know much, but from the footage it looks to me like Judd lifts the arm, steps in and holds the arm and then remains pretty much stationary.
 

TheFool

Cancelled
May 19, 2009
315
375
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
I was happy to believe Judd when he said his actions were reckless rather than intentional. That was before he blatantly lied in his testimony. WTF was he thinking? That nobody had access to the footage? That his words have the power to alter reality? Seriously, anyone who thinks Judd has been hard done by - what possible reason did he have for doing this?
 
Jan 31, 2007
27,310
15,514
In N Out
AFL Club
Carlton
Whether or not the whistle was blown ...

... is actually central to your first point - that the game had stopped. It hadn't. You were wrong to say that.

As for saying there was no need to hold on to Adams arm, I guess you could say the same thing for Rioli on Warnock, but that wouldn't be right either. Players hold on to arms plenty of times during a game in similar situations. It wasn't the hold that's the problem, but the position it was held in.
 
Jan 31, 2007
27,310
15,514
In N Out
AFL Club
Carlton
I was happy to believe Judd when he said his actions were reckless rather than intentional. That was before he blatantly lied in his testimony. WTF was he thinking? That nobody had access to the footage? That his words have the power to alter reality? Seriously, anyone who thinks Judd has been hard done by - what possible reason did he have for doing this?

What were the lies?
 
376839_4328708058564_1756646416_n.jpg
 
Jan 31, 2007
27,310
15,514
In N Out
AFL Club
Carlton
And that he let go of Adams' arm himself when he realised it could have been dangerous.

Can I have a link to verify that quote please? Because I suspect you've created this from Judd's comment "I didn't know that until the end, when I let go" [in relation to Adams being in pain]. If you're going to accuse someone of lying, at least use their words, not your own.

If I'm not mistaken and this is what you're talking about then how is that a lie? All he's saying is that he didn't realise until the last minute that Adams was in pain. And the footage corroborates what Judd said in that his attention wasn't really placed to see Adams legs.
 

TheFool

Cancelled
May 19, 2009
315
375
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Sorry, you'll have to forgive me asking for the direct quote given the liberties so many have taken with Judd's words in this thread already. What did he say exactly?

From the AFLTribunal Twitter, which is as close to a direct quote as I can get:

"Judd: Looked to see if Carlton player was going to strip ball. When he looked back saw Adams' arm was in a vulnerable position and let go.

Judd accepts conduct could be regarded as reckless in grabbing his arm and failing to notice it got lifted up by tackle.

Judd says force of tackle forced Adams' arm up."
 
Really can't believe people are having a go at a player for lying at the tribunal in an attempt to get off.

Gary Ablett (snr) is the only player I've ever known to think the honest truth is a good strategy at the tribunal.

Probably would have done his image some good had he & Carlton learnt from Collingwood & Bucks a week earlier, might have even avoided the tribunal, but once it's at the tribunal of course you're going to try and spin it.
 

TheFool

Cancelled
May 19, 2009
315
375
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Really can't believe people are having a go at a player for lying at the tribunal in an attempt to get off.

Gary Ablett (snr) is the only player I've ever known to think the honest truth is a good strategy at the tribunal.

Probably would have done his image some good had he & Carlton learnt from Collingwood & Bucks a week earlier, might have even avoided the tribunal, but once it's at the tribunal of course you're going to try and spin it.

I'm not at all surprised that he lied, and wouldn't really blame anyone for trying it. It's just the stuff he said just seems so easily refutable that I don't see why he bothered in the first place.

Of course, coming straight out and saying he's not trying to avoid sanction and he's here to cop his whack is laying it on a bit thick, but that's not really the issue here for me.
 
Jan 31, 2007
27,310
15,514
In N Out
AFL Club
Carlton
From the AFLTribunal Twitter, which is as close to a direct quote as I can get:

"Judd: Looked to see if Carlton player was going to strip ball. When he looked back saw Adams' arm was in a vulnerable position and let go.

Judd accepts conduct could be regarded as reckless in grabbing his arm and failing to notice it got lifted up by tackle.

Judd says force of tackle forced Adams' arm up."

You'll have to pardon my skepticism of another's recounting of Judd's words for Twitter. The amount of times I see s**t reworded in the media in general keeps me wary of anything other than direct quotes; and with the hysteria that's has surrounded this incident, this is doubly so now.
 

TheFool

Cancelled
May 19, 2009
315
375
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
You'll have to pardon my skepticism of another's recounting of Judd's words for Twitter. The amount of times I see s**t reworded in the media in general keeps me wary of anything other than direct quotes; and with the hysteria that's has surrounded this incident, this is doubly so now.

Okay, fair enough. I think it's probably a fairly accurate representation of his general arguments, but you're right to point out there's room for error. The whole thing's just a bit bemusing to me and his defence struck me as one of the weirder aspects of the evening.

I'd wish you good luck for this weekend, but I fear the consequences...

ETA: Regarding your latest post, I was turned around more by the nature of his lies than by their existence. My exact quote included the word "blatantly".
 
Back