Chris Judd

[EOP26]

Brisbane went on to win three flags.

There's also the juicy coincidence that the pick Brisbane ended up with in the Buckley trade, Chris Scott, got two premierships himself and ended up coaching Geelong in their victory against Collingwood.

Do Collingwood fans really want to stick it to Judd and Carlton?

Brisbane Lions (not the Bears) won three flag nine year after Buck left the BEARS (not the LIONS) the Pies where playing finals. Judd left West coast and went to the Blues in 2008 two year after WC winning the flag. The Blues where struggling to win enough games to play Finals in 2008... Do you notice the diff? - Hindsight is a wonderful thing

 

[EOP26]

That is incorrect.

Brisbane didn't make the finals until 1995, Buckley left in 1993. They finished 14th in 93' and 13th in 94'. They also changed their coach 3 times in 4 years previous till 1993.

Buckley wanted to go to Collingwood at the end of 1992. He was zoned to Brisbane because he spent some of his formative years in Darwin. Chris McDermott, Andrew and Darren Jarmen were all drafted to the Bears but unlike Buckley, they refused to play for the Bears in the same period because they were an offield and onfield rabble.

It was a saracstic reply to Clay Davis post. .. re - Bucks...

 

[Monkey King]

Brisbane Lions (not the Bears) won three flag nine year after Buck left the BEARS (not the LIONS) the Pies where playing finals. Judd left West coast and went to the Blues in 2008 two year after WC winning the flag. The Blues where struggling to win enough games to play Finals in 2008... Do you notice the diff? - Hindsight is a wonderful thing

The Buckley trade was a big win for Collingwood and yet the Lions went on to win 3 flags within a decade. This shit must scramble tesserac's brain ... I mean surely Brisbane won that trade right, coz Brisbane eventually surpassed Collingwood

 

[EOP26]

The Buckley trade was a big win for Collingwood and yet the Lions went on to win 3 flags within a decade. This shit must scramble tesserac's brain ... I mean surely Brisbane won that trade right, coz Brisbane eventually surpassed Collingwood

Bucks Left Brisbane BEARS , Brisbane Lions did not exist. It took two teams (Brisbane and Fitzroy) to merge, before Brisbane had the team that could play finals and win the flag(x3), the bears where going nowhere.

 

[Monkey King]

Bucks Left Brisbane BEARS , Brisbane Lions did not exist. It took two teams (Brisbane and Fitzroy) to merge, before Brisbane had the team that could play finals and win the flag(x3), the bears where going nowhere.

Right! So what you're saying is that over time, there were other inputs affecting such an outcome.

Brilliant observation

 

[tesseract]

How the hell is that shifting goalposts? Everything I've written as been part of a single and unchanging congruent argument? I think you're going to have to explain your bizarre use of the term and provide some direct examples of where anything I've written doesn't match up.

This particular fact about All Australian premiership players being on your list throughout that time is just further demonstration of how the state of WCE's list as never been comparable to the Blues. Yet you keep using terms like "rebuild" as though they apply evenly to our two clubs.



Sorry buddy. It was shown that over the preceding years, there hadn't been a team maintain such a statistical low point for many many years ... including Fitzroy. No point trying to re-wite everything now; this is where Carlton came from. When you say "rebuild", this is what you're actually talking about beyond the abstractness of the word.

Certainly it's not the same "rebuild" WCE went through; which was more like a Collingwood version (GF playing list, some retiring key players, injury affected, retain key senior players) where they dipped for some good young talent and shot straight back up again. Don't confuse word application for practical reality; saying you rebuilt and we rebuilt doesn't mean "we" did the same thing at all. You are comparing shit and sugar but fail to see it.

I guess GWS lost out with the Luke Power exchange huh? They got a senior player and onfield coach to help with the kids, while the Lions got nothing at all; but the Lions are higher up on the ladder so GWS lost yeah? Derp!

I've previously sited an example of you saying this is why Carlton are in front. I did so again in my last post.

The WC rebuild started as Carlton's was ending. This goes to show that Carlton were years in front of where WC were at. Given where WC are now compared to Carlton shows that WC have bypassed Carlton, and that Carlton's acquisition of Judd didn't bring the success Carlton had hoped and planned for.

What has the years prior to 2007 have to do with the Judd trade? Nothing! It's completely irrelevant. Your Fitzroy analogy is misplaced.

A rebuild is a rebuild. WC had the their core ripped from them. A string of retirements to veterans during the rebuild years is what usually occurs to all teams during a rebuild. That fact the AFL meted out justice for Carlton's rorting, as well as poor draft selections by Carlton in subsequent drafts meant that Carlton were down longer than expected. According to your convenient and flexible definition of the term 'rebuild', a rebuild isn't a rebuild unless it's a Carlton style, self inflicted, drawn out for a decade of shitness type rebuild.

 

[Monkey King]

The WC rebuild started as Carlton's was ending. This goes to show that Carlton were years in front of where WC were at.

Same word ... not the same thing! What you did was like Collingwood after their GF's. You were never where Carlton were; no point pretending you were. I dunno, perhaps you just don't properly value your former All Australian premiership stars. "A rebuild is a rebuild". What a load of crap! Yeah - a draft pick is a draft pick; a final is a final. You sir, are a one-step thinker!

What has the years prior to 2007 have to do with the Judd trade? Nothing! It's completely irrelevant. Your Fitzroy analogy is misplaced.

But weren't you just pointing to the same thing with Carlton's rebuild ending? I do agree though, the state of the list in the years before the trade has little to do with the trade ... but it sure does have a hell of a lot to do with current ladder position. Derp!

 

[tesseract]

Same word ... not the same thing! What you did was like Collingwood after their GF's. You were never where Carlton were; no point pretending you were. I dunno, perhaps you just don't properly value your former All Australian premiership stars. "A rebuild is a rebuild". What a load of crap! Yeah - a draft pick is a draft pick; a final is a final. You sir, are a one-step thinker!



But weren't you just pointing to the same thing with Carlton's rebuild ending? I do agree though, the state of the list in the years before the trade has little to do with the trade ... but it sure does have a hell of a lot to do with current ladder position. Derp!

Not the same according to you. Well given that YOU said it, it must be the definition. A rebuild is a rebuild; it's just that WC's rebuild was far more efficient than Carlton's. You're arguing semantics where there's no specific definition. For what occurred at WC is consistent with a rebuild.

Where Carlton 'were' is irrelevant. Prior to the off-season of acquiring Judd is irrelevant to the trade. But including it is convenient for your argument, so you continue to include irrelevant information regardless.

Carlton's rebuild ended with the acquisition of Judd. Therefore it's fair to include, for it's within the period of the Judd trade. You didn't understand this because you're a bit slow on the uptake. Hopefully now that I've expressed this point more than once, your light bulb make start to flicker some.

 

[Monkey King]

A rebuild is a rebuild; it's just that WC's rebuild was far more efficient than Carlton's. You're arguing semantics where there's no specific definition. For what occurred at WC is consistent with a rebuild.

LOL. Yeah sure ... probably because you started yours with a dozen or so premiership players on your list. Hell, you still have a nice smattering of All Australian premiership stars even to this day. All things being equal, Carlton may well have been as efficient; the thing is, all things weren't equal, were they? And its here where you get stuck in a flawed concept coz you're not looking at what really took place, you're just stuck on a word.

Carlton's rebuild ended with the acquisition of Judd.

No, not really. Carlton acquired Kreuzer after they got Judd; then Yarran/Garlett/Robbo then Hendo & Lucas coming over the next two years rounded out the rebuild. You don't really know much about this Carlton team do you?

 

[Spuddage]

Threads just going round in circles, monkey king seems stoked with the Judd trade, as do West Coast fans. Seems this is one of the few trades where both sides have won, everybodies happy! (except Laminex who's obvious mental deficiency leaves him frustrated and angry while trying to converse with adults)

 

[tazhawk]

Threads just going round in circles, monkey king seems stoked with the Judd trade, as do West Coast fans. Seems this is one of the few trades where both sides have won, everybodies happy! (except Laminex who's obvious mental deficiency leaves him frustrated and angry while trying to converse with adults)

Summed up well.

End thread/

 

[rose jam]

Judd, 4th longest serving captain at Carlton - That's embarassing to appoint someone who doesn't want it for that long.

 

[Pat_Footy]

Threads just going round in circles, monkey king seems stoked with the Judd trade, as do West Coast fans. Seems this is one of the few trades where both sides have won, everybodies happy! (except Laminex who's obvious mental deficiency leaves him frustrated and angry while trying to converse with adults)

Well the obvious elephant in the room is that WC are now closer to a premiership than Carlton.

 

[rose jam]

Well the obvious elephant in the room is that WC are now closer to a premiership than Carlton.

Carlton board room?

 

[tesseract]

LOL. Yeah sure ... probably because you started yours with a dozen or so premiership players on your list. Hell, you still have a nice smattering of All Australian premiership stars even to this day. All things being equal, Carlton may well have been as efficient; the thing is, all things weren't equal, were they? And its here where you get stuck in a flawed concept coz you're not looking at what really took place, you're just stuck on a word.



No, not really. Carlton acquired Kreuzer after they got Judd; then Yarran/Garlett/Robbo then Hendo & Lucas coming over the next two years rounded out the rebuild. You don't really know much about this Carlton team do you?

With Judd being the cherry on top of Carlton's numerous high draft picks, Carlton's rebuild ended as WC's started. Given that WC has surpassed Carlton a mere few short years later shows up Carlton's inefficiency and ineptitude when it comes to rebuilding. Carlton are most certainly pleased to have such fans as tragic as you are so as to act as apologist for their failings.

The acquisition of Kreuzer was already a foregone conclusion before the acquisition of Judd. For Carlton rolled in the M1 Abrams to make secure this outcome by taking out the Kreuzer cup. The bringing in of Judd changed the club's position from building to expectations of a climb to glory. This is evident by means of the slogan: 'They know we're prematurely coming'.
AFL rules means there has to be a turnover of players each year. So the acquisition of players from drafts or trades after rebuilding doesn't mean that clubs remain in rebuild mode. I think you're so offended at WC making a mockery of Carlton, by means of surpassing them with such ease, that you're in denial.

 

[Son of Skeletor]

For what it's worth, I think the Carlton rebuild in essence took place between 2005 and 2009, and they were coming from an exceedingly low base. Carlton's record from 2002-2007 was abysmal, history-makingly bad not only by Carlton's standards but by VFL/AFL history standards. Off the top of my head I can think of four players- Walker, Simpson, Scotland and Waite- that they had on the books prior to 2005. There may be a couple of names that escape me, but there really wasn't much there. The Fevola situation in 2009 didn't help them either.

Three reasons account for this terrible list situation prior to 2005- the poor management decisions by the Carlton administration in the late 90s and early 2000s (including drafting blunders), the salary cap/draft pick stripping scandal, and the aborted Pagan mini-rebuild in 2004, which cut corners. Monkey King is not kidding when he says that Carlton were starting from rock bottom.

West Coast's rebuild spanned 2008-2010 (plus the 2007 draft bounty), and they've done a very decent job of it. Two factors aided them. First, as Monkey King has pointed out, they had some established, premiership players left at the club. Ironically, the injuries to Cox, Kerr, Embley etc helped to speed up the rebuilding process by landing the Eagles some choice draft selections (in 2010 in particular).

Secondly, the Eagles never neglected their list management even during their contending days- they were still drafting guys like Hurn, Waters, Rosa, LeCras, Brown, Mackenzie and Schofield while their team was flying high- so kudos to them on their list management. They've also drafted reasonably well in their crucial 2007-2010 period. Add the established/returning stars and the prudent list management 2002-2006 to the recent good drafting, and West Coast's revival in 2011-12 is no great surprise. The horrible season in 2010 probably made the rebuild seem like an agonisingly long time for Eagle fans, but I think WC's 2010 season was an anomaly caused by injuries- they weren't THAT bad.

Carlton? The proof will be in the pudding, but I don't think Judd's recruitment sabotaged their rebuild in any way, shape or form. They might end up living and dying by the Gibbs, Kreuzer, Yarran and Lucas selections (Murphy is already everything he was expected to be as a no. 1 pick). After they lost Fevola, many were tipping Carlton to miss the top eight in 2010, so it's hardly like they're screwing-up a 'certain' 2012 flag.

Why do I write all this? Because there's no point debating who 'won' the Judd deal of '07, or which team sucks or succeeds at rebuilding. They're subjective topics with subjective definitions and differing timelines- it's not really worth the time or the effort. Neither team has 'lost'- period.

 

[Monkey King]

With Judd being the cherry on top of Carlton's numerous high draft picks, Carlton's rebuild ended as WC's started. Given that WC has surpassed Carlton a mere few short years later shows up Carlton's inefficiency and ineptitude when it comes to rebuilding. Carlton are most certainly pleased to have such fans as tragic as you are so as to act as apologist for their failings.

I will simply refer you to SoS's quality post and leave it here.

 

[Call Me Cake]

Just watched the 100th game for Carlton video on AFL.com.au.

Noticed that his first games were consisting of breaking packs and kicking goals from bursts... and all other cool stuff. Most of the highlights were of him years ago, with the exception of maybe two, one of them being a mark.

Doesn't do that this year. Looks the shadow of it now. You can seriously notice his consistent output slowly dying away... quite sad really.

 

[tesseract]

I will simply refer you to SoS's and my own selective starting and finishing point in Carlton's rebuild and leave it here, because including 2002-2004 is something us Carlton fans would rather deny as a period of rebuilding because we fornicated it up.

Indeed.

 

[Son of Skeletor]

Indeed.

Dude, they had no picks in 2002, and none bar Walker in 2003- that's a tad harsh! 2004 was a relatively shallow draft outside the top handful of picks. You can't lump the Elliott-era ****-ups and penalties in with the rebuild. Nobody's saying West Coast haven't done a sterling job in regrouping from the end of their era in '07 - why don't you just let it be? Schadenfreude at Carlton's expense achieves and proves nothing.

 

[Monkey King]

Indeed.

Sorry Mate. I reckon SoS has a much better handle on the situation than you.

 

[BLPC08]

It's almost sad watching Judd play. A once champion footballer having almost no impact on a match. Those electrifying dashes are now a distant memory. I guess injuries catch up with every footballer - Juddy succumbing a little earlier than other greats.

 

[Xsess]

Put a fork in him, he's done

 

[Bosun]

For what it's worth, I think the Carlton rebuild in essence took place between 2005 and 2009, and they were coming from an exceedingly low base. Carlton's record from 2002-2007 was abysmal, history-makingly bad not only by Carlton's standards but by VFL/AFL history standards. Off the top of my head I can think of four players- Walker, Simpson, Scotland and Waite- that they had on the books prior to 2005. There may be a couple of names that escape me, but there really wasn't much there. The Fevola situation in 2009 didn't help them either.

Three reasons account for this terrible list situation prior to 2005- the poor management decisions by the Carlton administration in the late 90s and early 2000s (including drafting blunders), the salary cap/draft pick stripping scandal, and the aborted Pagan mini-rebuild in 2004, which cut corners. Monkey King is not kidding when he says that Carlton were starting from rock bottom.

West Coast's rebuild spanned 2008-2010 (plus the 2007 draft bounty), and they've done a very decent job of it. Two factors aided them. First, as Monkey King has pointed out, they had some established, premiership players left at the club. Ironically, the injuries to Cox, Kerr, Embley etc helped to speed up the rebuilding process by landing the Eagles some choice draft selections (in 2010 in particular).

Secondly, the Eagles never neglected their list management even during their contending days- they were still drafting guys like Hurn, Waters, Rosa, LeCras, Brown, Mackenzie and Schofield while their team was flying high- so kudos to them on their list management. They've also drafted reasonably well in their crucial 2007-2010 period. Add the established/returning stars and the prudent list management 2002-2006 to the recent good drafting, and West Coast's revival in 2011-12 is no great surprise. The horrible season in 2010 probably made the rebuild seem like an agonisingly long time for Eagle fans, but I think WC's 2010 season was an anomaly caused by injuries- they weren't THAT bad.

Carlton? The proof will be in the pudding, but I don't think Judd's recruitment sabotaged their rebuild in any way, shape or form. They might end up living and dying by the Gibbs, Kreuzer, Yarran and Lucas selections (Murphy is already everything he was expected to be as a no. 1 pick). After they lost Fevola, many were tipping Carlton to miss the top eight in 2010, so it's hardly like they're screwing-up a 'certain' 2012 flag.

Why do I write all this? Because there's no point debating who 'won' the Judd deal of '07, or which team sucks or succeeds at rebuilding. They're subjective topics with subjective definitions and differing timelines- it's not really worth the time or the effort. Neither team has 'lost'- period.

Best post on the subject, an accurate assessment of the situation.

 

[rose jam]

It's almost sad watching Judd play. A once champion footballer having almost no impact on a match. Those electrifying dashes are now a distant memory. I guess injuries catch up with every footballer - Juddy succumbing a little earlier than other greats.

Electrifying dashes?? When, 2006 when he was getting blocks and free space? That was a career ago.