Coach Chris Scott re-signs to 2022 (aka the Chris Scott discussion Part IV)

[geelong_crazy26]

Thought his 2009 finals series as 20yo?? was quite good. Especially for the age.
Plenty of finals in his prime where he's done f**k all.

21 year old. He burst onto the scene in 2007 and played almost arguably his best games from 2007-2010 as his first and second matches against carlton and melbourne the following week. Stagnated quite a bit for years until 2011.

Can recall our forum arguing he would neved make it and should be traded for a late pick!!! I was strongly arguing to keep him and was a huge fan.

The same sorta people said it and argued it who are the usual pessimists.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

It’s impossible to state with any confidence what would’ve happened on GF day 2013 had the Cats made it through. However I do think it was the last legit shot they’ve had a flag, with 2016 not too far behind.

Interesting analysis on the margins of finals games. I guess my question would be how many of those margins were a result of one side pulling away later in the game? The major concern that many have had over the years with this team is that in big finals (2012 EF, 2013 SF, 2014 SF, 2016 PF, 2017 PF, 2019 QF) the match has been essentially decided in the first 15 minutes. I do subscribe to the notion that we are overachieving due to clever tactical coaching, an acute home ground advantage and some targeted recruiting (some of which I haven’t agreed with). However, to be this uncompetitive in big games over a period presents a pattern. The coach must factor into a conversation about this surely.

Its interesting isnt it? Not sure how many late blowouts or on the flip early blowouts. Id assume without knowledge a dose of both? Happy for correction if anyone checks.

I think its a complicated issue that as fans we just see the outcome and get frustrated and want to point fingers and understandably. But reality is we know extremely little about the inner workings happening at the club and the work that goes in to make us what eventuates.

I to view us as brilliantly coached throughout the home away season and extremely tactically well disciplined and coached to the point we look better than we are.

I take an identical scenario in clarkson. Since their champion era and phasing out their star players, they made finals a few times including minor premiers... Their finals record is 0-4 including straight set exit in that period.

Is clarkson all of a sudden a coach who cant stand up to the heat of finals but can coach home away great??? Clearly not.

Coaches who overcoach and get 110% out of their teams often fall to bits come finals as other sides have another level to go to that they dont as they are already being maximised.

 

[ATSAM]

21 year old. He burst onto the scene in 2007 and played almost arguably his best games from 2007-2010 as his first and second matches against carlton and melbourne the following week. Stagnated quite a bit for years until 2011.

Can recall our forum arguing he would neved make it and should be traded for a late pick!!! I was strongly arguing to keep him and was a huge fan.

The same sorta people said it and argued it who are the usual pessimists.

And struggled with foot and back injuries. One of the concerns from some at the time was thta he had been rushed into the Seniors with little experience and he was at that time overweight. Hence feet and back issues.

 

[Spazz Cat]

21 year old. He burst onto the scene in 2007 and played almost arguably his best games from 2007-2010 as his first and second matches against carlton and melbourne the following week. Stagnated quite a bit for years until 2011.

Can recall our forum arguing he would neved make it and should be traded for a late pick!!! I was strongly arguing to keep him and was a huge fan.

The same sorta people said it and argued it who are the usual pessimists.

I can remember the criticism. People just forgot his age. Had a foot problem for basically a year too.
Strange the things you remember, but can remember him winning a Sony Bravia TV for BOG in 09 prelim.
Was an important player on GF day that year too.
IMO his best period was 2012 up until a bit of a dog act against West Coast that wrecked his back.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

And struggled with foot and back injuries. One of the concerns from some at the time was thta he had been rushed into the Seniors with little experience and he was at that time overweight. Hence feet and back issues.

What foot and back injuries?? I recall a minor hotspot?? In 2010 i think. I dont recall back issues till he was older. Was it a slight management issue here and there?? Or am i missing something

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I can remember the criticism. People just forgot his age. Had a foot problem for basically a year too.
Strange the things you remember, but can remember him winning a Sony Bravia TV for BOG in 09 prelim.
Was an important player on GF day that year too.
IMO his best period was 2012 up until a bit of a dog act against West Coast that wrecked his back.

I recall that game. He kicked 3 goals and the commentator said he would give him the TV if he kicked the goal for a fourth but it hit the post, ended up giving it anyway.

Recall hawthorn fans going bizerk on bigfooty after also saying it was a token and biggest joke of best on ground ever seen. I think it was just a confidence giving prize and a good thing also for a young kid.

Are you referring to the hot spot in 2010 that had him miss a handful of games??

 

[STPer18]

Underrated Hawkins moment was his goal to start the last quarter in the '09 GF. Down seven points at that stage and he slots one from 50m.

11 minutes in:

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I can remember the criticism. People just forgot his age. Had a foot problem for basically a year too.
Strange the things you remember, but can remember him winning a Sony Bravia TV for BOG in 09 prelim.
Was an important player on GF day that year too.
IMO his best period was 2012 up until a bit of a dog act against West Coast that wrecked his back.

Will also add, just had a quick search and saw posts from end of 2010 saying

1. Move tom hawkins to trial him at CHB because he wasnt good enough as a forward.
2. People are crazy thinking we can win a flag without ablett and need to hit the draft hard and rebuild.

Also about the great future of tom gillies mark blake lol.

 

[Partridge]

21 year old. He burst onto the scene in 2007 and played almost arguably his best games from 2007-2010 as his first and second matches against carlton and melbourne the following week. Stagnated quite a bit for years until 2011.

Can recall our forum arguing he would neved make it and should be traded for a late pick!!! I was strongly arguing to keep him and was a huge fan.

The same sorta people said it and argued it who are the usual pessimists.

As usual, over generalised bullshit.

The forum definitely did discuss whether he would make it. And there were opinions all over the place.

As for the "same sorta people etc.", well I'm sure you'd tag me as a "usual pessimist" and I never said he wouldn't make it. I probably said I wasn't sure. Go back and check if you like. As you're a congenital liar I don't expect an honest argument.

 

[Spazz Cat]

I recall that game. He kicked 3 goals and the commentator said he would give him the TV if he kicked the goal for a fourth but it hit the post, ended up giving it anyway.

Recall hawthorn fans going bizerk on bigfooty after also saying it was a token and biggest joke of best on ground ever seen. I think it was just a confidence giving prize and a good thing also for a young kid.

Are you referring to the hot spot in 2010 that had him miss a handful of games??

Probably was! I think I can remember Gaz and Chappy playing good games?????
Still good on him. Pretty young. We needed him and he came through that year.
Actually in 09, my family is up where his Dad is. Reckons he had a problem with a little bone in his foot in most of 09, and apparently he had the shits big time in 2010 when they gave him time off but kept trying to bring him back.
Lucky it worked out ok.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

As usual, over generalised bullshit.

The forum definitely did discuss whether he would make it. And there were opinions all over the place.

As for the "same sorta people etc.", well I'm sure you'd tag me as a "usual pessimist" and I never said he wouldn't make it. I probably said I wasn't sure. Go back and check if you like. As you're a congenital liar I don't expect an honest argument.

I didnt quote you nor was i going to directly as i wasnt sure exactly who said what and wouldnt unless im sure. I dont goal post shift and lie like you have when my predictions of a geelong mass decline go belly up.

And thanks for directly quoting for a change. Usually you are too indirect and take pot shots while replying to another persons post instead, so i think directness and honesty are not your best traits to be discussing.

Off you go back to doing so and liking all the pessimistic quotes while ttying to back peddle claiming they arent your views at the same time. Usual gutless stuff Until you have a little tantrum such as now Name calling. Im suprised your not banned as of yet

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Probably was! I think I can remember Gaz and Chappy playing good games?????
Still good on him. Pretty young. We needed him and he came through that year.
Actually in 09, my family is up where his Dad is. Reckons he had a problem with a little bone in his foot in most of 09, and apparently he had the shits big time in 2010 when they gave him time off but kept trying to bring him back.
Lucky it worked out ok.

Didnt know about 2009?? What was apparently wrong??

 

[Spazz Cat]

Didnt know about 2009?? What was apparently wrong??

One of those tiny little bones in your foot was giving him pain. Just couldn't get rid of it for nearly a couple of years. Just what I heard, dunno how much it hindered him.

 

[maxy87]

Its interesting isnt it? Not sure how many late blowouts or on the flip early blowouts. Id assume without knowledge a dose of both? Happy for correction if anyone checks.

4 matches immediately spring to mind from a Geelong perspective:
- the 2012 EF where we were blown away by Fremantle in Q1
- the 2016 PF where we were obliterated by Sydney in Q1
- the 2017 PF where we were obliterated by the Crows in Q1
- the 2019 QF where Collingwood got the jump in Q1.
I’m not suggesting that we should have won all of these games but there is a clear pattern of not firing a shot when the rubber was hot. To me it appears that the side has a soft underbelly, which I find bizzare given how hard a player Chris Scott was.

I think its a complicated issue that as fans we just see the outcome and get frustrated and want to point fingers and understandably. But reality is we know extremely little about the inner workings happening at the club and the work that goes in to make us what eventuates.

I to view us as brilliantly coached throughout the home away season and extremely tactically well disciplined and coached to the point we look better than we are.

This is generally the position I have taken on this issue over the past 5 or so years. I agree with this insofar as Scott has a tactical ability to cover weaknesses and leverage the side’s strengths and home ground advantage to get us into contention. However, I also think he can be too clever by half, sometimes to the team’s detriment (I.e. going into a QF with no ruck).
My biggest issue is that it doesn’t seem clear to me where this team is going. The club seems stuck in a feedback loop of making finals for the sake of it, bombing out without firing a shot and moving on to the next year only top up the list again to go for another illusory top 4 finish or flag. You’re right that we don’t have the full picture of what goes on behind closed doors, and there are many factors at play (which have been discussed at length). However, I think it perfectly reasonable to include the coach in a discussion around the elements that comprise the fog of late 1990s mediocrity that is engulfing the club incrementally each year.

I take an identical scenario in clarkson. Since their champion era and phasing out their star players, they made finals a few times including minor premiers... Their finals record is 0-4 including straight set exit in that period.

Is clarkson all of a sudden a coach who cant stand up to the heat of finals but can coach home away great??? Clearly not.

That’s a fair point, though I’m not a member of Hawthorn so it doesn’t really concern me.

Coaches who overcoach and get 110% out of their teams often fall to bits come finals as other sides have another level to go to that they dont as they are already being maximised.

Perhaps because finals are more contested and played on instinct over structures.

 

[Spazz Cat]

4 matches immediately spring to mind from a Geelong perspective:
- the 2012 EF where we were blown away by Fremantle in Q1
- the 2016 PF where we were obliterated by Sydney in Q1
- the 2017 PF where we were obliterated by the Crows in Q1
- the 2019 QF where Collingwood got the jump in Q1.
I’m not suggesting that we should have won all of these games but there is a clear pattern of not firing a shot when the rubber was hot. To me it appears that the side has a soft underbelly, which I find bizzare given how hard a player Chris Scott was.


This is generally the position I have taken on this issue over the past 5 or so years. I agree with this insofar as Scott has a tactical ability to cover weaknesses and leverage the side’s strengths and home ground advantage to get us into contention. However, I also think he can be too clever by half, sometimes to the team’s detriment (I.e. going into a QF with no ruck).
My biggest issue is that it doesn’t seem clear to me where this team is going. The club seems stuck in a feedback loop of making finals for the sake of it, bombing out without firing a shot and moving on to the next year only top up the list again to go for another illusory top 4 finish or flag. You’re right that we don’t have the full picture of what goes on behind closed doors, and there are many factors at play (which have been discussed at length). However, I think it perfectly reasonable to include the coach in a discussion around the elements that comprise the fog of late 1990s mediocrity that is engulfing the club incrementally each year.


That’s a fair point, though I’m not a member of Hawthorn so it doesn’t really concern me.


Perhaps because finals are more contested and played on instinct over structures.

You forgot North in 2014 too. There was no excuses for that one.

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

Hawkins was nearly delisted after 2010 the same way Ablett was only getting a game based on his name pre-2007.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

One of those tiny little bones in your foot was giving him pain. Just couldn't get rid of it for nearly a couple of years. Just what I heard, dunno how much it hindered him.

Biggest thing i noticed about hawkins in his prime early and hawkins later on, not sure if you see it the same, was he lost his huge spring heel leap he has.

Quite a tradgedy as it was a joy to watch him crash into packs and take huge marks.

Wonder if it was directional so not to injure himself or if he couldnt due to his back??

 

[someday-somehow]

When i say 100 percent common sense is required to figure out things he controls and what others control. Or next time do you require me to explain first he doesnt kick the foort himself through the goals?? Im assuming you have that basic level of foofy knowledge yourself.

I think he actually gets 100 percent out of his players and what they are capable of. Besides injury issues all the players who have been traded to geelong from another club have played career best football under scott. Dangerfield went from a top 50 player to a brownlow medalist under scott, tom hawkins had his entire career saved by scott and was on the verge of being delisted end of 2010.

You only need to look at end of 2010 and then 2011 to see how much more scott got out of them.

If he didnt get the best out of players, then explain why we have lost 13AA players and still continue to be a good side over that period?? The players we have recruited are no where near the standard of thr ones we lost, we have only revruited 1A grader.

Is there just something in the water at geelong?? Or maybe scott is just a great coach

Everything you've posted in subjective...and I mean everything.

Re the bolded - statement, maybe they could've been but development at the club has been poor - a very subjective argument sure but no more than any of yours.

The issue I have with your posts is that you cite your opinions as fact. "You only need to look at the end of 2010 and then 2011 to see how much more scott got out of them", how on earth do you possibly quantify how much more scott got out of them?.

You attribute all successes to scott and point the failures somewhere else - you own one then you own both in my opinion. If I could search for a metaphor it's like Scott is Donald Trump and you are Hannity

 

[geelong_crazy26]

4 matches immediately spring to mind from a Geelong perspective:
- the 2012 EF where we were blown away by Fremantle in Q1
- the 2016 PF where we were obliterated by Sydney in Q1
- the 2017 PF where we were obliterated by the Crows in Q1
- the 2019 QF where Collingwood got the jump in Q1.
I’m not suggesting that we should have won all of these games but there is a clear pattern of not firing a shot when the rubber was hot. To me it appears that the side has a soft underbelly, which I find bizzare given how hard a player Chris Scott was.


This is generally the position I have taken on this issue over the past 5 or so years. I agree with this insofar as Scott has a tactical ability to cover weaknesses and leverage the side’s strengths and home ground advantage to get us into contention. However, I also think he can be too clever by half, sometimes to the team’s detriment (I.e. going into a QF with no ruck).
My biggest issue is that it doesn’t seem clear to me where this team is going. The club seems stuck in a feedback loop of making finals for the sake of it, bombing out without firing a shot and moving on to the next year only top up the list again to go for another illusory top 4 finish or flag. You’re right that we don’t have the full picture of what goes on behind closed doors, and there are many factors at play (which have been discussed at length). However, I think it perfectly reasonable to include the coach in a discussion around the elements that comprise the fog of late 1990s mediocrity that is engulfing the club incrementally each year.


That’s a fair point, though I’m not a member of Hawthorn so it doesn’t really concern me.


Perhaps because finals are more contested and played on instinct over structures.

Great level headed post with balanced thoughtful observations. A joy to discuss with so far.

He has to be in discussions doesnt he?? He coaches the team after all.

I wouldnt subscribe to the idea we are in a loop of mediocrity or just making finals for the sake of it. Chris scott is a ferociously competitive person and if anything is the opposite of a mediocre point of view. I think he absolutely despises the idea of losing and has been pushing us since 2011 to continuously compete for a flag for what has gone on for 9 years ontop of the 4 years prior we competed for a flag. That is a long time to sustain top four success and i cant quite think of another modern day team like it. You cant push so hard year in year out getting the most out of your players like he has if he wasnt very competitive. I would say the one most devastated we lost those finals would be chris himself.

Its very hard to get all of the pieces right that are required to win a premiership. And only a chunk of it is up to the coach.

I still dont subscribe to the idea of mediority down at geelong. We have been in legitimate positions to win a flag finishing top four and just were not good enough in the end to win it.

It can be exceptionally challenging and difficult to continually push and try again each year after we keep falling short, for fans players coaches alike, so i understand where the frustration comes from and words like settling and mediocre are generated, but inside the walls of the club coaches and players it would be very different and anything but settling or mediocre talks.

I would have to refer back to probably clarkson again since hawthorns champion team has declined. An obvious champion coach who has done great in the HA but bombed in finals. He is no mediocre settler either and very competitive.

Its a whole discussion to look specifically into the weaknesses and what was wrong with the team, but simply put great coaches can compensate for weaknesses during a season and get alot out of their team which will get exposed come finals when things get a bit more fundamental.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Everything you've posted in subjective...and I mean everything.

Re the bolded - statement, maybe they could've been but development at the club has been poor - a very subjective argument sure but no more than any of yours.

The issue I have with your posts is that you cite your opinions as fact. "You only need to look at the end of 2010 and then 2011 to see how much more scott got out of them", how on earth do you possibly quantify how much more scott got out of them?.

You attribute all successes to scott and point the failures somewhere else - you own one then you own both in my opinion. If I could search for a metaphor it's like Scott is Donald Trump and you are Hannity

Mate everything is opinion if you want to go down that chain of thought. Its also opinion we played poor in our finals matches and subjective. Everything is subjective and debatable. This isnt mathematics with an absolute outcome.

On a scale of rediculous opinions about the topic i would say stating a coach who took over a side that got smashed in a prelim lost the games best player, then took them to a flag the next year with the same group is a pretty darn good assunption to say was 100 percent on the coach and amazing coaching. Nothing outlandish about that and pretty self evident based on the actual outcomes.

 

[David the Cat]

As usual, over generalised bullshit.

The forum definitely did discuss whether he would make it. And there were opinions all over the place.

As for the "same sorta people etc.", well I'm sure you'd tag me as a "usual pessimist" and I never said he wouldn't make it. I probably said I wasn't sure. Go back and check if you like. As you're a congenital liar I don't expect an honest argument.

Cut the abuse....calling fellow posters "congenital liars" is not what is wanted on this Board.

Disagree by all means, but abusive name calling such as this is one step too far. It won't be tolerated on this Board.

Temper your response from here on please...and steer away from low level personal abuse.

Thank you.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Biggest thing i noticed about hawkins in his prime early and hawkins later on, not sure if you see it the same, was he lost his huge spring heel leap he has.

Quite a tradgedy as it was a joy to watch him crash into packs and take huge marks.

Wonder if it was directional so not to injure himself or if he couldnt due to his back??

It was that West Coast game I mentioned earlier. Got tunnelled really bad. F**ked him up.

 

[My Tilly]

Thought his 2009 finals series as 20yo?? was quite good. Especially for the age.
Plenty of finals in his prime where he's done f**k all.

His finals record is extremely poor overall.
But if you take into account his turn of form from 2011 finals until the present.
5.5 mark and 1.7 goals per final from 2011 to 2019.
Better improvement, particularly the 4 goals he booted against West Coast in the semi final.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

His finals record is extremely poor overall.
But if you take into account his turn of form from 2011 finals until the present.
5.5 mark and 1.7 goals per final from 2011 to 2019.
Better improvement, particularly the 4 goals he booted against West Coast in the semi final.

Best i have seen him do in a final was 2014 where he almost single handedly pulled us from the grave and over the line in the comeback that just fell short against north. Did this agaisnt a quality defense too

 

[someday-somehow]

Mate everything is opinion if you want to go down that chain of thought. Its also opinion we played poor in our finals matches and subjective. Everything is subjective and debatable. This isnt mathematics with an absolute outcome.

On a scale of rediculous opinions about the topic i would say stating a coach who took over a side that got smashed in a prelim lost the games best player, then took them to a flag the next year with the same group is a pretty darn good assunption to say was 100 percent on the coach and amazing coaching. Nothing outlandish about that and pretty self evident based on the actual outcomes.

So if scott owns the successes 100% then he must own the failures 100%. Post 2011 has been no grand finals appearances, post 2013 I would say the actual outcomes have been......."meh" yet we are still loading up with old has-beens from other clubs year on year and seemingly failing to produce our next batch of AAs.

Let's get back to recruiting and developing our own success, we have lost what worked for us initially and our list just continues to get older and older.