Opinion Chris Scott's coaching - Part 1 [closed, see Part II]

Will Chris Scott see out his contract until the end of 2017?

  • Yes

    Votes: 79 79.0%
  • No

    Votes: 21 21.0%

  • Total voters
    100
  • Poll closed .
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BlightysCats

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I said Scott was the architect of an increase in scores from turnovers and a decrease in scores from clearances during 2011 and 2015.
No you didn't this is what you said
With regards to scoring from turnovers Scott not only has adapted to this but he was the architect of this and lead the way .
Architect and lead the way? I don't think so. Unfortunately for you that statement alone shows at the very least an incredible bias to Scott and a lack of understanding of the tactical history of AFL.
My argument about Scott tactically is that he hasn't adapted since 2011, and while we aren't using the same gameplan exactly as we did in 2011 we are basically combining the gameplan we had then with Collingwood's/Malthouse's hard forward press, both of which are archaic tactics from 4 years ago now. Meanwhile teams like Richmond have developed a kicking based zone that moves in unison down the ground much like in Soccer, based on the Hawks game-plan somewhat, the Eagles have also adapted and tinkered with The Hawks zones and tactics to improve markedly with their whole defence basically torn to shreds, and meanwhile Scott and co. down at the Cattery are desperately falling behind tactically because we don't have anybody with any semblance of the IP of Hawthorn down at our club. Now you were right to say we couldn't play Hawthorns game plan but either could West Coast or Richmond they're simply adapting it to suit their team, as are the Bulldogs under Beveridge. There's no doubt that The Bulldogs and West Coast are more advanced on the ladder than they should be due to talent alone, it's because of their respective coaches tactical nous and we simply don't have that down at Geelong. You mentioned some rubbish about me being confused why we're not top 4? I've never said anywhere I expected us to be top 4 or even top 8 really, I think I predicted us to finish 11 and 11 at seasons end. I'm more frustrated about our complete lack of a cohesive game plan or direction and our players intensity levels which rise and fall by the week , for example when the Bullies lose you can see what they're trying to do but when we play it's a different bloody mélange of those two 2011 game plans every week, we either attempt to institute a hard forward press (circa Collingwood 2011) for most of the game or we play a sitting back stoppage based defensive/counter attacking game plan modelled on our 2011 one. Time for some actual structure and clarity around how we're trying to play.
,
 

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geelong_crazy26

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No you didn't this is what you said

Architect and lead the way? I don't think so. Unfortunately for you that statement alone shows at the very least an incredible bias to Scott and a lack of understanding of the tactical history of AFL.
My argument about Scott tactically is that he hasn't adapted since 2011, and while we aren't using the same gameplan exactly as we did in 2011 we are basically combining the gameplan we had then with Collingwood's/Malthouse's hard forward press, both of which are archaic tactics from 4 years ago now. Meanwhile teams like Richmond have developed a kicking based zone that moves in unison down the ground much like in Soccer, based on the Hawks game-plan somewhat, the Eagles have also adapted and tinkered with The Hawks zones and tactics to improve markedly with their whole defence basically torn to shreds, and meanwhile Scott and co. down at the Cattery are desperately falling behind tactically because we don't have anybody with any semblance of the IP of Hawthorn down at our club. Now you were right to say we couldn't play Hawthorns game plan but either could West Coast or Richmond they're simply adapting it to suit their team, as are the Bulldogs under Beveridge. There's no doubt that The Bulldogs and West Coast are more advanced on the ladder than they should be due to talent alone, it's because of their respective coaches tactical nous and we simply don't have that down at Geelong. You mentioned some rubbish about me being confused why we're not top 4? I've never said anywhere I expected us to be top 4 or even top 8 really, I think I predicted us to finish 11 and 11 at seasons end. I'm more frustrated about our complete lack of a cohesive game plan or direction and our players intensity levels which rise and fall by the week , for example when the Bullies lose you can see what they're trying to do but when we play it's a different bloody mélange of those two 2011 game plans every week, we either attempt to institute a hard forward press (circa Collingwood 2011) for most of the game or we play a sitting back stoppage based defensive/counter attacking game plan modelled on our 2011 one. Time for some actual structure and clarity around how we're trying to play.
,
Can I please have an apology for you not quoting what I said correctly? You left out half of the statement , this is what I said .

"The 2 big differences between 2011 and 2015 are that in 2015 more scores come from turnovers than clearances and sides are trying to keep possession of the ball via short kicking .With regards to scoring from turnovers Scott not only has adapted to this but he was the architect of this and lead the way"

Blighty please I think you are nice person who is passionate about Geelong but everyone who reads these posts will reach the conclusion that you are confused. Lets just look at some the stuff you have said.

1."we are basically combining the gameplan we had then with Collingwood's/Malthouse's hard forward press " The side with the most aggressive forward press in the AFL currently is West Coast .Hawthorn also have a more aggressive press than we do .

2 "down at the Cattery are desperately falling behind tactically because we don't have anybody with any semblance of the IP of Hawthorn down at our club" The reason why we are currently behind WCE, Richmond and the Bulldogs has nothing to do with them having Hawthorn intellectual property ,its because they have all recently spent multiple seasons towards the bottom of the ladder getting early draft picks while we have spent the past 8 years playing finals and have lost about 16 really good players over the past 4 years.

You also seem to be suggesting that we don't use a zone , this is just false .

3."we either attempt to institute a hard forward press (circa Collingwood 2011) for most of the game or we play a sitting back stoppage based defensive/counter attacking game plan modelled on our 2011 one". So you don't want us to defensively press up and you don't want us to defensively push back ? you my friend are confused
 

BlightysCats

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With regards to scoring from turnovers Scott not only has adapted to this but he was the architect of this and lead the way"
We've already been through this but Scott has never been and was never an architect or lead the way in producing a game plan that forced then scored from turnovers.

2 "down at the Cattery are desperately falling behind tactically because we don't have anybody with any semblance of the IP of Hawthorn down at our club" The reason why we are currently behind WCE, Richmond and the Bulldogs has nothing to do with them having Hawthorn intellectual property ,its because they have all recently spent multiple seasons towards the bottom of the ladder getting early draft picks while we have spent the past 8 years playing finals and have lost about 16 really good players over the past 4 years.
So 4 of the top 8 teams (one of course being Hawthorn) have ex Hawthorn assistants as their coaches not to mention Stewart Dew as an assistant at Sydney and use Hawthorn tactics, game plans etc. but that's just a massive coincidence to you? Seriously? There is no other connection of one club between the teams in the top 8 that comes close to that! Amazing...

You also seem to be suggesting that we don't use a zone , this is just false .
Where did I suggest that? You don't think the forward press is a zone?:rolleyes: You really are far more ignorant of AFL tactics than I ever could've imagined...

3."we either attempt to institute a hard forward press (circa Collingwood 2011) for most of the game or we play a sitting back stoppage based defensive/counter attacking game plan modelled on our 2011 one". So you don't want us to defensively press up and you don't want us to defensively push back ? you my friend are confused
You misquoted me again:rolleyes: my critique was we have a melange of those two game plans that seems muddled and not disciplined ie. we often execute them at the wrong times within matches and don't execute them very well, I'm arguing if we're going to use these two set ups we should either perfect both of them and improve the timing with which we use them within games, or only concentrate on one rather than being mediocre at both. To give you an example when we had our good month against the Bulldogs, Sydney, GWS etc we were concentrating on man on man footy and setting up a disciplined defensive zone more than using the forward press, as a result it's no surprise we were way harder to score against because opposition teams were forced to kick in to our strong defensive zone which sat back more playing to the strengths of our old body on body intercept mark defenders than when we play a hard forward press (which we've done terribly this year) and you have poor Lonergan, Mackie, or Enright trying to track back one on one in to acres of space on the oppositions pacey small forward because the opposition has easily got it out the back of our hopeless attempt at a forward press.
 

BlightysCats

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Blighty please I think you are nice person who is passionate about Geelong
Also I'd appreciate it if you could lose the above obviously patronising sentence every reply. I understand you thought I was a troll once upon a time but I don't need to be told I'm a nice person every 5 minutes from a poster who so obviously dislikes me and has been whinging behind my back to other posters privately about me....Big hello to Stan The Caddy!;)
 

Stan The Caddy

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Also I'd appreciate it if you could lose the above obviously patronising sentence every reply. I understand you thought I was a troll once upon a time but I don't need to be told I'm a nice person every 5 minutes from a poster who so obviously dislikes me and has been whinging behind my back to other posters privately about me....Big hello to Stan The Caddy!;)
It wasn't him Blighty. Stop being paranoid. You'll never guess who it was and it was more than one person in any case.

Just for the record though, I don't think that you're a troll. You're an attention seeker, but not a troll.
 

BlightysCats

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It wasn't him Blighty. Stop being paranoid. You'll never guess who it was and it was more than one person in any case.

Just for the record though, I don't think that you're a troll. You're an attention seeker, but not a troll.
I know you've never said I was a troll, as for people bitching about me I thought I'd just be a smart a#se about it in my usual inimitable way. ;)
 

Teriyakicat

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I think I've figured out who you are, BlightysCats .

You are an ex-Cat player who is currently an assistant coach at another club and who feels hard done by, by Scott.

You seek to undermine Scott's ability to coach, in order to apply for the vacant position yourself- hence why you're so annoyed at him being re-signed until the end of 2017.

How am I doing so far, Mr Milburn??

;):D
 
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BlightysCats

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I think I've figured out who you are, BlightysCats .

You are an ex-Cat player who is currently an assistant coach at another club and who feels hard done by, by Scott.

You seek to undermine Scott's ability to coach, in order to apply for the vacant position yourself- hence why you're so annoyed at him being re-signed until the end if 2017.

How am I doing so far, Mr Milburn??

;):D
I think next year is the critical one for Scott, after our poor start this year he's done well changing his coaching and our game plan after the break. I'm still concerned with our lack of intensity at times which could come down to his coaching or some of the old guys not accepting the mediocrity of our team compared to the glory days either way we'll certainly have the cattle next year to challenge again and that should be motivation enough in itself, so if we get all our signings at the end of this year and don't finish at least top 6 next year I think it'd be unders and pressure will really begin to build on Scott. So I'm not annoyed at him being re-signed till 2017 as long as he's doing a good job and getting a good response from the players - to state the obvious.
 

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geelong_crazy26

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We've already been through this but Scott has never been and was never an architect or lead the way in producing a game plan that forced then scored from turnovers.



So 4 of the top 8 teams (one of course being Hawthorn) have ex Hawthorn assistants as their coaches not to mention Stewart Dew as an assistant at Sydney and use Hawthorn tactics, game plans etc. but that's just a massive coincidence to you? Seriously? There is no other connection of one club between the teams in the top 8 that comes close to that! Amazing...



Where did I suggest that? You don't think the forward press is a zone?:rolleyes: You really are far more ignorant of AFL tactics than I ever could've imagined...



You misquoted me again:rolleyes: my critique was we have a melange of those two game plans that seems muddled and not disciplined ie. we often execute them at the wrong times within matches and don't execute them very well, I'm arguing if we're going to use these two set ups we should either perfect both of them and improve the timing with which we use them within games, or only concentrate on one rather than being mediocre at both. To give you an example when we had our good month against the Bulldogs, Sydney, GWS etc we were concentrating on man on man footy and setting up a disciplined defensive zone more than using the forward press, as a result it's no surprise we were way harder to score against because opposition teams were forced to kick in to our strong defensive zone which sat back more playing to the strengths of our old body on body intercept mark defenders than when we play a hard forward press (which we've done terribly this year) and you have poor Lonergan, Mackie, or Enright trying to track back one on one in to acres of space on the oppositions pacey small forward because the opposition has easily got it out the back of our hopeless attempt at a forward press.
Mate I am going to make a suggestion that you actually read what other posters are saying and what you yourself have said .You really are all over the place like a 7 year old child.

1.The discussion is not about Scott inventing scoring from turnovers , its about him keeping up with the changes in the game from 2011 to 2015 .He was the architect of an increase in scores from turnovers and decrease in scores from clearances during this time period .

2.I never said Hawthorn don't have excellent systems and IP , of course they do .However so do we , if we had our 2011 premiership side we would be beating them , their system is no superior to ours .As for these sides with coaches from Clarkson , lets have a look .

Hardwick - Been at Richmond for 6 years and has not won a single final yet , this is a spectacular failure .
Cameron - In his 3rd year at GWS with a poor win/loss record and has not been able to get his side into the finals yet.
Simpson- Having a great year so far , but could not even make the finals last year, lets not forget that they are a cashed up club who was just about favourite to win the premiership in 2013.They have also had some really good draft picks over the past few years.
Beveridge- Inherited an extremely talented group of young players as the bulldogs have spent the previous 4 years down the bottom of the ladder with early draft picks and stocking up on some outstanding young talent.

Last year there were 3 senior coaches who were assistants under Clarkson , how many finals did they win between the 3 of them ? 0 while at the same time we have seen 2 assistants from Geelong make a prelim final , no Clarkson assistant has so far gone past the 1st week of the finals.

3.You are totally confused about how the game is currently been played .The purpose of a press is to put pressure on the ball carrier so they can not effectively dispose the ball .Clubs than have their players set up in a defensive structure further up the ground to make it as hard as possible to get though. Its not a choice between a press and defensive structures , they both go hand in hand .If you press is too weak than sides will just cut though any defensive structures further up the ground .

The idea that we shouldn't use a press because our defenders are to slow is stupid and in fact when we played well recently it was with the use of an aggressive forward press .A well implemented press means you slow down the speed of the oppositions ball movements and gives our defenders more time to set up .A well implemented forward press can be a slow defences best friend.
 
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Farmer2Goggin

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Yep, narcissism will do that.
So , maybe he's James Hird???

Back on to the Coaching - there is defenitely an argument that we have done well considering the age profile of our list.
With : Lang , Gregson , Thurlow , Kolo , Walker, Bews , Kersten and even Nakia and Luxford all playing throughout the Season we are certainly giving the kids a go.
With Lang , Gregson , Kolo and Thurlow ( possibly Bews) seemingly best 22 now that's also a big tick
No doubt the Stanley and Duncan injuries have hurt us a lot this season.
We are trying to get the most of our vets but the inevitable is occurring and change is brewing
Look at Collingwood as a comparison - we stack up pretty well.

Unsurprisingly we have been inconsistent as a result - the kids won't always play like Champs and the Vets will also produce some inconsistent efforts as their powers decline. We have seen changes to the gameplan which is a positive however I would still like to see us have forward options around the 35-55m mark rather than the default bomb it long option
I think our list is solid and if we can solve the ruck and boost our MF ( Danger , S Selwood) we should turn our fortunes around quite quickly.
Not all doom and gloom;)
 
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For all those Chris Scott haters on here...
List please/examples or at least define hater in your mind.
Greetings fellow Catter. I wouldn't class myself as a Scott hater but I do have some serious doubts. I acknowledge that he has forgotten more about Football than I ever knew in the first place which is why I wonder about some of the following. Perhaps my uninformed view is too simplistic.

1. Our Hawthorn approach

Why are we giving the Hawks space? Hawthorn need space to execute their piece of shit dinky dink game plan which absolves them of the need for physical contact. Why are we continually sitting back and letting them execute? Why are we guarding space when Richmond showed that man on man can not only curtail them but also defeat them. Yes, Hawthorn are a good side but we are too easy to play against when we allow them to chip chip woodchip.

2. Our Fremantle approach

Another confusing approach to this amateur observer is how we deliver the ball inside 50 whenever we play certain opponents, in particular Fremantle. Too often we do the long bomb on Tommy's head while Ross has his zone set up or he's standing two or three Dockers. This usually means our inside 50 is thwarted and sometimes it means a goal out the back to an open Docker forward line. It is imperative we have a better strategy than this when we are getting flogged in the ruck and their big midfielders are winning the clearances. There appears to be a lack of thought continually shown against this opponent in particular.

3. Those who don't learn from history...

...are doomed to repeat it. Scott almost wears this refusal to learn from previous errors as a badge of honour. It's good that he's backing the boys to do a job but it's not 2011 anymore. In the St Kilda game were once more subjected to the unedifying spectacle of Jimmy Bartel in the back line, something that hasn't worked in the past. Scott does occasionally pull a few moves, he's not the worst (or best) in this area but he doesn't appear to learn from past mistakes and there doesn't appear to be evolution of our game plan which matches the realistic appraisal of the state of our list.

Love the Cats and don't mind Scotty, he did in 2011 what Bomber couldn't in 2010 sans Ablett. But if more informed Cat watchers than I can explain away my concerns above about our coach the Beer will be that much cooler when I watch us beat the Pies.
 

geelong_crazy26

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Greetings fellow Catter. I wouldn't class myself as a Scott hater but I do have some serious doubts. I acknowledge that he has forgotten more about Football than I ever knew in the first place which is why I wonder about some of the following. Perhaps my uninformed view is too simplistic.

1. Our Hawthorn approach

Why are we giving the Hawks space? Hawthorn need space to execute their piece of shit dinky dink game plan which absolves them of the need for physical contact. Why are we continually sitting back and letting them execute? Why are we guarding space when Richmond showed that man on man can not only curtail them but also defeat them. Yes, Hawthorn are a good side but we are too easy to play against when we allow them to chip chip woodchip.

2. Our Fremantle approach

Another confusing approach to this amateur observer is how we deliver the ball inside 50 whenever we play certain opponents, in particular Fremantle. Too often we do the long bomb on Tommy's head while Ross has his zone set up or he's standing two or three Dockers. This usually means our inside 50 is thwarted and sometimes it means a goal out the back to an open Docker forward line. It is imperative we have a better strategy than this when we are getting flogged in the ruck and their big midfielders are winning the clearances. There appears to be a lack of thought continually shown against this opponent in particular.

3. Those who don't learn from history...

...are doomed to repeat it. Scott almost wears this refusal to learn from previous errors as a badge of honour. It's good that he's backing the boys to do a job but it's not 2011 anymore. In the St Kilda game were once more subjected to the unedifying spectacle of Jimmy Bartel in the back line, something that hasn't worked in the past. Scott does occasionally pull a few moves, he's not the worst (or best) in this area but he doesn't appear to learn from past mistakes and there doesn't appear to be evolution of our game plan which matches the realistic appraisal of the state of our list.

Love the Cats and don't mind Scotty, he did in 2011 what Bomber couldn't in 2010 sans Ablett. But if more informed Cat watchers than I can explain away my concerns above about our coach the Beer will be that much cooler when I watch us beat the Pies.
Some good questions , I think they are all relatively simple to answer tho.

1.Hawthorn are a very mature side that is capable or using the entire ground extremely well .You cant cover all the space across the ground and they are exceptionally good at finding any empty space. Its not right to say that any side is 100% zoning or 100% a man on man team , ever side has a balance of both .If we were to go completely man on man it would result in too much empty space being made for them to lead into and take uncontested marks.

2.For the past few years Fremantle have had a significantly better midfield than we do , what this means is its very hard for us to deliver the ball into our forward 50 they way we would like to.Usually our entry is slow which gives them a chance to get numbers back and man up. Its much easier for our players to just kick it long when they don't have another option or they are under extreme pressure.

3.Its just wrong to say that our game has not changed since 2011 , for example we have far more numbers around the ball and different zones around the clearances which is the biggest change in the game since 2011.The other change is the that sides are using short kicks into their forward line more often, the problem is to effectively do this you need a really good midfield which we don't have at the moment .It takes a tremendous amount of talent to keep on pin pointing targets in a crowded forward line.

With regards to Bartel in the defence against St Kilda the fact is that he has gone back into the defence in a number close games and we have 1.He was moved down in defence against Hawthorn in rnd 1 2013 and in games against Carlton and Essendon at the Etihad over past few years. He has made mistakes in the past but if we are never going to play a someone in the back 50 again because they have made mistakes than we wont be able to play anyone in the back 50 .
 

BlightysCats

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Greetings fellow Catter. I wouldn't class myself as a Scott hater but I do have some serious doubts. I acknowledge that he has forgotten more about Football than I ever knew in the first place which is why I wonder about some of the following. Perhaps my uninformed view is too simplistic.

1. Our Hawthorn approach

Why are we giving the Hawks space? Hawthorn need space to execute their piece of shit dinky dink game plan which absolves them of the need for physical contact. Why are we continually sitting back and letting them execute? Why are we guarding space when Richmond showed that man on man can not only curtail them but also defeat them. Yes, Hawthorn are a good side but we are too easy to play against when we allow them to chip chip woodchip.

2. Our Fremantle approach

Another confusing approach to this amateur observer is how we deliver the ball inside 50 whenever we play certain opponents, in particular Fremantle. Too often we do the long bomb on Tommy's head while Ross has his zone set up or he's standing two or three Dockers. This usually means our inside 50 is thwarted and sometimes it means a goal out the back to an open Docker forward line. It is imperative we have a better strategy than this when we are getting flogged in the ruck and their big midfielders are winning the clearances. There appears to be a lack of thought continually shown against this opponent in particular.

3. Those who don't learn from history...

...are doomed to repeat it. Scott almost wears this refusal to learn from previous errors as a badge of honour. It's good that he's backing the boys to do a job but it's not 2011 anymore. In the St Kilda game were once more subjected to the unedifying spectacle of Jimmy Bartel in the back line, something that hasn't worked in the past. Scott does occasionally pull a few moves, he's not the worst (or best) in this area but he doesn't appear to learn from past mistakes and there doesn't appear to be evolution of our game plan which matches the realistic appraisal of the state of our list.

Love the Cats and don't mind Scotty, he did in 2011 what Bomber couldn't in 2010 sans Ablett. But if more informed Cat watchers than I can explain away my concerns above about our coach the Beer will be that much cooler when I watch us beat the Pies.
Most perfect post I've seen his year on here, sums up my frustration with Scott in the most concise and eloquent of ways.
 

BlightysCats

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The purpose of a press is to put pressure on the ball carrier so they can not effectively dispose the ball
I can't be bothered with the rest of your impotent points so I'll focus on this. The forward press is a zone set up to create repeat inside 50s and as you said put pressure on the ball carrier. It's set up as a zone when there's a point kick out or stoppage deep inside the forward 50. To deny it's a zone is one of the strangest things I've ever heard considering it was invented by Malthouse who simply took his defensive kick out zone and compressed it to stop us handballing out of defence like we used to love to do in 2007,8,9. All forward presses are still zones, look at what they're dubbing West Coasts forward press 'The West Coast web' even the name alone suggests it's a zone, which of course it is.
 

geelong_crazy26

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I can't be bothered with the rest of your impotent points so I'll focus on this. The forward press is a zone set up to create repeat inside 50s and as you said put pressure on the ball carrier. It's set up as a zone when there's a point kick out or stoppage deep inside the forward 50. To deny it's a zone is one of the strangest things I've ever heard considering it was invented by Malthouse who simply took his defensive kick out zone and compressed it to stop us handballing out of defence like we used to love to do in 2007,8,9. All forward presses are still zones, look at what they're dubbing West Coasts forward press 'The West Coast web' even the name alone suggests it's a zone, which of course it is.
I never said that a forward press is not a type of zone , of course it is.

So exactly what is the problem with our forward press that concerns you ?
 

BlightysCats

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BlightysCats if Menzel is the sub for this game then I'm with ya on Scotty mate! :D
Add Cockatoo to that list and I'll be happy! Without Caddy and Duncan I think the Pies bat way deeper in the midfield than us, despite Menzel's hopefully triumphant return, I think we could be in real trouble.
 
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Still too gutless to move on our vets. Kelly in this week rather than Gore or persevering with GHS is short sighted unnecessary and stupid.
Whilst I get where you're coming from. Finals on the line and an established mid out injured (Caddy) alongside Duncan I'd say bringing back the experienced Kelly is a no brainer over a debutant. Would have liked GHS to stay in but I guess he's made way for Menzel so can't complain.
 
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BlightysCats

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I never said that a forward press is not a type of zone , of course it is.

So exactly what is the problem with our forward press that concerns you ?
Yeah I apologise you're right you didn't say it wasn't a zone I don't know how I got that into my head maybe because I only skimmed over it before. Anyway my problem with our forward press this year is that it has been too easy to get through especially up the middle. A well executed forward press should push the opposition wide usually to a boundary throw in or stoppage of some sort so that the defensive zone can be put in place but I feel we've been opened up through the middle of our zone/press and the opposition has got it out the back far too easily and consistently at times this season. The worst part being some of those teams have been pretty poor teams as well. I think we're much better sitting back in a defensive zone and trying to set up the counter, and also playing man on man, than trying our very poor forward press.
 

iameviljez

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Whilst I get where you're coming from. Finals on the line and an established mid out injured (Caddy) alongside Duncan I'd say brining back the experienced Kelly is a no brainer over a debutant. Would have liked GHS to stay in but I guess he's made way for Menzel so can't complain.
Yeah, I think Gregson was probably the one who would have been the better swap - but neither of Kelly or GHS are exactly forward players, while Caddy does also rotate forward at times.
 
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