Opinion Chris Scott's coaching - Part II [NEW POLL ADDED]

For how long will Chris Scott be Geelong coach?

  • For as long as he wants the job

  • 5+ more years

  • Somewhere between 2020 and 2022 (i.e. beyond his current contract)

  • He will be sacked/resign in 2019

  • He will be sacked/resign in 2018

  • The Nuclear Option: sacked/resign in 2017


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geelong_crazy26

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Let's consider the bold for a moment. We have a coach that has kept the club competitive whilst having to gradually replace about 3000+ games of experience over this time with new players, whether they be draft picks or free agents. And of course there have been how many compromised drafts during this time to aid the AFL's love child? How have your two previous pin-up boys Bucks and Ross been doing in comparison? I would suggest the answer would be sh*te rather than merely mediocre.
You want the club to go and get high drafts picks by tanking? Fine. That's your opinion. The club has chosen a different direction. You can call that and any associated results 'mediocre' until the cows come home. It won't change my enjoyment of the club winning more than they lose or playing finals with the opportinity of winning the big one.
We have been more than competitive over the years.

In 13 we where a kick away from beating the grand finalists in a prelim with an injury riddled team, 100% competed for the flag. 16 we had the best winning record against all the top 8 sides and made a prelim which is competing for a flag. The only team we couldn't beat in the 18 man Comp was Sydney from the top 8. Being better and capable of beating 6/7 other top 8 sides is anyone's book being very competitive.

So 2/5 years we have competed for a flag. This whole finals stat is dragged down by 14, and let's be realistic, we where an average team that year who made the top four because of extremely good coaching that has us playing above our punching weight. If that's ooor coaching then I find it bizzare.

If anyone is looking for trends or great AFL coaches, the biggest one is their competitive ferociousness, none of them could ever tank and drop down the ladder for a "rebuild". They are competitive animals who get 100% out of their players and stop at nothing to win everything. Malthouse Matthews sheedy Clarkson are exactly this. Does anyone honestly think Clarkson is going to be happy to sit down the bottom and do a conventional rebuild? Your joking if you believe that, he has no intention of this.

Let's also point out another obvious thing,, the optimistic people on here are going to be the ones who enjoy it when Geelong do go down the ladder which is inevitable, we will enjoy the rebuild because we have positive mindset a which can embrace it. These negative sooks of posters are going to be throwing the biggest tantrums on here everyday having a meltdown, mark my word it will b this x10 from blighty biggy and bobby co.

They just simply wouldn't be able to handle what is required for a long traditional rebuild with their pessimistic mindsets
 

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barmy44

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If anyone is looking for trends or great AFL coaches, the biggest one is their competitive ferociousness, none of them could ever tank and drop down the ladder for a "rebuild". They are competitive animals who get 100% out of their players and stop at nothing to win everything. Malthouse Matthews sheedy Clarkson are exactly this. Does anyone honestly think Clarkson is going to be happy to sit down the bottom and do a conventional rebuild? Your joking if you believe that, he has no intention of this.
malthouse, sheedy and clarkson all spent time down the bottom building lists.

matthews spent a few years down the bottom on the other side, but didnt really build much.

dont think you can speak to clarksons intentions one way or the other, either.
 

geelong_crazy26

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malthouse, sheedy and clarkson all spent time down the bottom building lists.

matthews spent a few years down the bottom on the other side, but didnt really build much.

dont think you can speak to clarksons intentions one way or the other, either.
Malthouse took over as Collingwood coach in 2000 and in 2002-2003 Collingwood made the grand finals. He made the finals six out of his ten years including four grand finals and a premiership. Yes I'm not saying they never go down the ladder, that is extreme idea of what I am saying. They have short stints and rebound very quickly in the space of a couple of years. Their competitive nature and superior coaching abilities don't allow their teams to dwindle at the bottom. Clarkson also started in 2005 and hawthorn came 5th in 2007.

Scott is no different and is made of the same silk robe as these guys when it comes to winning and competitive.
 

barmy44

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Malthouse took over as Collingwood coach in 2000 and in 2002-2003 Collingwood made the grand finals. He made the finals six out of his ten years including four grand finals and a premiership. Yes I'm not saying they never go down the ladder, that is extreme idea of what I am saying. They have short stints and rebound very quickly in the space of a couple of years. Their competitive nature and superior coaching abilities don't allow their teams to dwindle at the bottom. Clarkson also started in 2005 and hawthorn came 5th in 2007.

Scott is no different and is made of the same silk robe as these guys when it comes to winning and competitive.
collingwood finished bottom 4 in '04 and '05, a half game off the spoon in the latter season. doesnt quite gel with you saying 'none of them could ever tank and drop down the ladder for a "rebuild"'.

anyway, yeah scott is no doubt highly competitive. im sure he is of a similar 'silk robe' (never heard that one before) to the others in that respect, but the 4 names youve mentioned are ahead of scott in terms of coaching achievements. at this stage, at least.

i think in your battles with bligthys you have a habit of overestimating scott and underestimating bomber.
 

BlightysCats

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odd comment considering a few pages back you adopted mooneys words that scott was from the leigh matthews 'me and them' school.

so yeah you definitely cant, 50% of the time.
Completely different generation that require a completely different style of coaching, Brisbanes last flag was 14 years ago and all Leigh Mathews inspired coaches have failed since except Scott in 2011, since then however Scott has more than upheld the Mathews style coaches tradition.
 

geelong_crazy26

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collingwood finished bottom 4 in '04 and '05, a half game off the spoon in the latter season. doesnt quite gel with you saying 'none of them could ever tank and drop down the ladder for a "rebuild"'.

anyway, yeah scott is no doubt highly competitive. im sure he is of a similar 'silk robe' (never heard that one before) to the others in that respect, but the 4 names youve mentioned are ahead of scott in terms of coaching achievements. at this stage, at least.

i think in your battles with bligthys you have a habit of overestimating scott and underestimating bomber.
Yes for two seasons, can hardly be classified a rebuild.

I think Scott could end up the same level as these guys if not better. Depends how long he decides to coach for.

Point is they are very aggressive competitors and have a strong winning mentality, sitting down the bottom is not an option for them. As you nicely pointed out how Malthouse was only down for two seasons, compare that with other clubs and you will get the idea. Same with Clarkson.

I think bomber was a good developer, a poor tactician tho. Clarkson and Malthouse got the better of him. It makes me sad how he cost us two premierships in what was a once in a lifetime side both in 08 and 10.

He also had a lot of assistance through wells hitting the jackpot and also some great development coaches such as McCartney.

He did a great job snagging two, but he also cost us two premierships which was unforgivable as it was purely poor coaching.
 

barmy44

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I quite clearly implied that his win-loss ratio is in good part his doing.

I merely don't believe it's enough to perpetually renew his contract while our finals record has been contrastingly poor.
minor quibble, but the club arent perpetually renewing scott, they have in the past and they will again this year. and he can always be sacked if the 'wheels fall off'.

there is some justification to his finals record though. '12 turned out to be against a team nearing their peak, who would do it to us again the next season on their way to a GF. and, in my view at least, would have done it to all others except hawthorn that year in the GF. hawthorn just 'had freo' mentally.

'13 geelong staggered into finals. i was surprised they made it to within 5 points of tje hawks in the PF. still, that year was - again, in my view - scotts best chance at a flag outside of '11. not to excuse the performances, but a fit hawkins and simpson pre-injury, who knows. still, all in all a disappointing finals campaign on many fronts.

'14 our record flattered us. ordinary side hovering around 105% but still better than most teams. frightfully put to the sword by the hawks. decent comeback against north.

'16 we were never a fearsome side, and obviously had glaring weaknesses generally hidden by some individual brilliance. the win against the 3-time premiers is undersold on here a bit, but really some performances (carlton, collingwood, st kilda, richmond) during the season really meant the PF wasnt entirely a shock. i thought there was a chance we could be out of it at quarter time, and we were.

it isnt like weve streaked into every finals series in red hot form and then scott has simply dropped the ball.

a different sport i know, but theo epstein - who was a big part of breaking the chicago cubs drought - was named 'worlds greatest leader' by forbes magazine, in ANY field. when asked about the WS win, he basically said 'i was a few inches away from a failed 5 year plan'.

the cubs entered the postseason with the best record and the best team. they struggled terribly at different times in both the NLCS (PF equivalent) and WS (GF equivalent). the 'few inches away' comment was to do with the game winning hit in game 7 in extra innings. a few inches close to the 3rd baseman and it was a double play and cleveland possibly break their own drought.

anyway, different sports, but an interesting POV. its said in baseball that the season isnt played to find out who is the best, its played to find out who wins. a lot of variables in a sporting season.
 

barmy44

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Completely different generation that require a completely different style of coaching, Brisbanes last flag was 14 years ago and all Leigh Mathews inspired coaches have failed since except Scott in 2011, since then however Scott has more than upheld the Mathews style coaches tradition.
right, gotcha.
 

barmy44

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Yes for two seasons, can hardly be classified a rebuild.

I think Scott could end up the same level as these guys if not better. Depends how long he decides to coach for.

Point is they are very aggressive competitors and have a strong winning mentality, sitting down the bottom is not an option for them. As you nicely pointed out how Malthouse was only down for two seasons, compare that with other clubs and you will get the idea. Same with Clarkson.

I think bomber was a good developer, a poor tactician tho. Clarkson and Malthouse got the better of him. It makes me sad how he cost us two premierships in what was a once in a lifetime side both in 08 and 10.

He also had a lot of assistance through wells hitting the jackpot and also some great development coaches such as McCartney.

He did a great job snagging two, but he also cost us two premierships which was unforgivable as it was purely poor coaching.
i pointed out malthouse was down for two because you originally said he wouldnt go down for any...

but thats beside the point.

all coaches have assistance... thats the reason for having assistant coaches. these days no coach does it themselves.

bomber lost two flags? so did malthouse. so did sheedy. clarkson did as well if losing a PF counts, as it does for bomber.

scott played a big part in 'costing us' the '13 flag. possibly '16 as well if '10 is a black mark for bomber.

and if scott is going to be as good as these guys who only need 1 or 2 down years to attack a flag again, why do you take such exception to blightys suggesting we should maybe rebuild ourselves? we clearly have weak spots in our list.

i have doubts about scott, but for some reason im becoming more positive. i believe he is a 'good thinker' whatever the hell that means. but he has weaknesses, and i dont think he is a candidate to go down as a coaching legend. i could be wrong though.

and i dont think it is possible to argue that there arent holes in our list. id say big holes. the club is currently trying to fill them through ready made players. only time will tell if thats 'right' or not, and if it isnt we wont actually know if the other way would have been better, worse or about the same.

too much goes into a flag win that is both controllable and uncontrollable to argue there is one perfect method or approach.

hawthorn were incredible '12-'15. but simulate those 4 seasons 10,000 times (difficult with aussie rules) and they would likely win 1 or 2 fairly regularly, and also sometimes come up with 0 and all 4.
 

barmy44

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sorry to bang on about baseball again, but i got hooked following the cubs last season. grew to love the game very quickly.

im going to post an article here thats worth reading, even if you arent into baseball. granted, it is probably the most statistically rich sport in the world, sp lends itself to this kind of thing more. Final Siren has a great thread on the main board that runs simulations / makes season predictions etc if anyone is interested and / or unaware [https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/squiggle-2017.1157986/]

http://www.espn.com.au/mlb/story/_/id/19037525/the-65-win-cubs-tales-mlb-2017-alternative-lines

the opening, which i referenced above, is apt for a thread about the best way to get success:

"You probably saw Theo Epstein's quote after Fortune named him the world's greatest leader: "The whole thing is patently ridiculous. It's baseball -- a pastime involving a lot of chance. If Zobrist's ball is three inches farther off the line, I'm on the hot seat for a failed five-year plan."

Bless him for recognizing this. We have just begun a baseball season, singular -- one season, one set of outcomes, from which we'll draw one set of conclusions about the people who made it happen. But far more than one outcome is possible. How many? Well, that's where this gets interesting."

simply put, there is no single best / right way or approach. the 'objective best approach' each season (if it was actually possible to assess), heck over each decade, doesnt always return a flag, although it would increase the likelihood.
 

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JumpyHolden

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His w-l record is not his own doing (entirely), but the finals losses are?
Scott's W/L record is superficial at best.

Chris Scott 72.2% Win record
Alastair Clarkson 63.2% Win record
Leigh Matthews 57.9% Win record

Going by W/L record Scott's on top but even the most ardent cats fan would endorse the other 2 as better coaches in which case W/L record means sweet FA.

Furthermore if you had of presented Clarkson or Matthews when they first started coaching with the same side Scott inherited i'd say they would have had a better record. On the other hand present Scott with what Matthews or Clarkson inherited and i'd doubt he would have been capable of winning any flags at all.
 

barmy44

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Scott's W/L record is superficial at best.

Chris Scott 72.2% Win record
Alastair Clarkson 63.2% Win record
Leigh Matthews 57.9% Win record

Going by W/L record Scott's on top but even the most ardent cats fan would endorse the other 2 as better coaches in which case W/L record means sweet FA.

Furthermore if you had of presented Clarkson or Matthews when they first started coaching with the same side Scott inherited i'd say they would have had a better record. On the other hand
it isnt 'superficial', its purely a representation of what % of games he has coached have been wins.

the conclusions to be drawn from that figure are up to you. as are the assumptions of who could have coached the list better, or which lists scott would have coached worse, etc.

however, if someone had told me straight after scotts appointment he would have the highest winning % in history through the first 150 games coached, id have been very surprised. shame he only nabbed the one flag in those 150, but thats the way it went. its one more than i thought i was going to see in this period after the '10 PF, and bomber / GAJ departures.

scott isnt a 'supercoach', and his W/L record is just a stat... but a record like that also doesnt just happen by accident. the fact its the highest in 120 years of history illustrates that.

lastly, look at what happened to matthews with an aging 'superlist'. i doubt the fact he was 'already there' changes everything, though granted it is a different circumstance. he didnt transition it at all well.
 

Sttew

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Yeah it's a strange mentality with this lot, it's like they're constantly thinking 'we hate what Blighty says! So rather than put him on ignore, or not read his posts, let's go to the thread we know he'll be on and comment on every single post he makes, that'll show him!'
You are effectively admitting that you are trolling, deliberately stoking the fire because you know you'll get a reaction. The sooner this thread is consigned to the bin the better, because Chris Scott isn't going anywhere too soon, and life is too short
 

00VicWard001

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Let's also point out another obvious thing,, the optimistic people on here are going to be the ones who enjoy it when Geelong do go down the ladder which is inevitable, we will enjoy the rebuild because we have positive mindset a which can embrace it. These negative sooks of posters are going to be throwing the biggest tantrums on here everyday having a meltdown, mark my word it will b this x10 from blighty biggy and bobby co.

They just simply wouldn't be able to handle what is required for a long traditional rebuild with their pessimistic mindsets
This is a good point. Win a premiership or come last these sooks will be complaining about something.
 

Partridge

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I quite clearly implied that his win-loss ratio is in good part his doing.

I merely don't believe it's enough to perpetually renew his contract while our finals record has been contrastingly poor.
It's absolutely his doing. Deserves as much credit for that as the 2011 premiership. Totally justified.

The flip side is he must also wear the blame for recent finals losses as well.
 
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as I posted the other day in the last 5 years we don't even make the 8 in relation to finals won; in no particular order West Coast, Adelaide, Port, Bulldogs, Hawthorn, North Melbourne, Fremantle, and Sydney have all won more finals than us in the last 5 years - do you really call that being competitive?
In the posting history of a man who has made cherry-picking into an art form, this is truly one of your very best.

If you do this 'finals wins' table over the entirety of Scott's time at the club (that's simply six years instead of your 'preferred' five), we are actually in clear third place behind the runaway leaders Hawthorn and Sydney.

Clearly doesn't suit you to include figures which incorporate our last flag, though. Particularly when you attribute precious little credit to Scott for anything to do with that resounding success.

As has often been the case with you, conveniently choosing the sample size to suit your agenda does you no credit and exposes the empty rhetoric you are engaging in yet again on here.
 

Baudolino

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Scott's W/L record is superficial at best.

Chris Scott 72.2% Win record
Alastair Clarkson 63.2% Win record
Leigh Matthews 57.9% Win record

Going by W/L record Scott's on top but even the most ardent cats fan would endorse the other 2 as better coaches in which case W/L record means sweet FA.
No one is suggesting win/loss record should be used as the sole metric for determining whether a coach is good or not - making the statement "Chris Scott's 72.2% winning record demonstrates his ability to outcoach his coaching adversaries and achieve results on matchday" does not logically commit one to concluding that he's a better coach than Clarkson - but that win/loss record is, however, a performance indicator that must necessarily be part of the equation when appraising how well a coach is doing their job. And not an insignificant part, either. It's massively relevant.
 

geelong_crazy26

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i pointed out malthouse was down for two because you originally said he wouldnt go down for any...

but thats beside the point.

all coaches have assistance... thats the reason for having assistant coaches. these days no coach does it themselves.

bomber lost two flags? so did malthouse. so did sheedy. clarkson did as well if losing a PF counts, as it does for bomber.

scott played a big part in 'costing us' the '13 flag. possibly '16 as well if '10 is a black mark for bomber.

and if scott is going to be as good as these guys who only need 1 or 2 down years to attack a flag again, why do you take such exception to blightys suggesting we should maybe rebuild ourselves? we clearly have weak spots in our list.

i have doubts about scott, but for some reason im becoming more positive. i believe he is a 'good thinker' whatever the hell that means. but he has weaknesses, and i dont think he is a candidate to go down as a coaching legend. i could be wrong though.

and i dont think it is possible to argue that there arent holes in our list. id say big holes. the club is currently trying to fill them through ready made players. only time will tell if thats 'right' or not, and if it isnt we wont actually know if the other way would have been better, worse or about the same.

too much goes into a flag win that is both controllable and uncontrollable to argue there is one perfect method or approach.

hawthorn were incredible '12-'15. but simulate those 4 seasons 10,000 times (difficult with aussie rules) and they would likely win 1 or 2 fairly regularly, and also sometimes come up with 0 and all 4.
I say he cost us the flag in 08 and 10 because we had the best list in the AFL by the length of the Flemington race track, and he lost them both embarrassingly. This is not on the same page at all as 13 and 16 where we didn't have the best list in the AFL, nothing at all like 08 11.

That side was a once in a lifetime side and he stuffed it up from going down as the greatest side ever without dispute due to his poor coaching strategies.

If Scott wins one more premiership, he will go down as one of the greatest coaches of all time. His win loss record which is best of all time along with two premierships will elevate him to the league of Matthews sheedy Clarkson Malthouse and co.
 

Bobby_

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If Scott wins one more premiership, he will go down as one of the greatest coaches of all time.
He won't :)
In fact, he's got a better chance of missing the top four in consecutive seasons for the first time in his coaching career.

Now where is this contract extension you promised us all was coming?
 

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Scott's W/L record is superficial at best.

Chris Scott 72.2% Win record
Alastair Clarkson 63.2% Win record
Leigh Matthews 57.9% Win record

Going by W/L record Scott's on top but even the most ardent cats fan would endorse the other 2 as better coaches in which case W/L record means sweet FA.

Furthermore if you had of presented Clarkson or Matthews when they first started coaching with the same side Scott inherited i'd say they would have had a better record. On the other hand present Scott with what Matthews or Clarkson inherited and i'd doubt he would have been capable of winning any flags at all.
Nothing superficial about reality.
Even take away the 2011 season if you like -(why not, plenty of others do in these discussions trying to make "stats" fit their arguments) -and see how he stacks up- still ahead?
 
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