Opinion Chris Scott's coaching - PART III

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Armo7

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i don:rolleyes:t mean this in a snarky 'challenging' way, but how do you arrive at that? genuine question - i personally have no idea who are good or bad assistants, and wouldnt know where to start judging them... i doubt i could even begin to explain how responsibility is divided up amongst coaches during the week or on match day. is it based on the output / style of the forward line? or have you had some insight at training, VFL matches etc?
I admire you mate. Rather than spout with an unsupported opinion masquerading as unadulterated fact, you show due deference for investigating some supporting information upon which to say something with credibility.
 

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Armo7

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Well you have to include everything as far as I'm concerned. The good, the moderate, and the bad.

Fact - He's a premiership coach. Deservedly so.
Fact - His home and away record is outstanding.
Fact - His finals record is 6-8.
Fact - His recent finals record is not good - 3-8 in the last 6 years (before arteries are burst the full finals record is immediately above it).

Can't wait to be told how they are opinions.
You do realise that overall finals record of 6-8, would be 7-7 if just one loss was converted to a win? Hardly a damning statistic.

And with regard to the most recent record of 3-8, you have to appreciate that the list has been almost completely rebuilt (28 new players added to the list as stated above). Scott and Cook's stated objective was always to regenerate the list and at the same time remain competitive. The results have been a resounding success for that stated strategy. Nothing short of amazing really in a competition which self-equalising mechanisms. I think you got used to winning premierships between 2007 and 2011, and you are not coping with the fact that the rest of the very best teams have caught up and have our measure when it really counts of late. There have been numerous teams that endured a poor finals record before eventually busting through to the grand final. Like just about everyone here, I'm not an expert - but I certainly haven't heard any compelling commentary that identifies much less proves Scott has some glaring deficiencies.
 

Cronin

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I admire you mate. Rather than spout with an unsupported opinion masquerading as unadulterated fact, you show due deference for investigating some supporting information upon which to say something with credibility.
What is your opinion on James Rahilly as our forward's coach?
 

Armo7

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FACT: In the past 3 finals series we have been comprehensively SMASHED in finals in the same manner. Coaching staff hasn't learned from those mistakes. Home and away victories mean literally nothing when you have back to back smackings in Preliminary Finals that is embarrassing for anyone associated with the club.
Bullshit. Nothing embarrassing about reaching a preliminary final and losing to a side that was clearly the leading team all year. Not to mention we played them on their home ground. And as stated above, Geelong is essentially a whole new list with 28 new players since 2011. You are naive to think you have some insight exceeding Scott's regarding performing better in preliminary finals. Richmond did the job comprehensively on GWS in the other preliminary final. And the repeat result of a sound beating in a preliminary final says nothing about what Scott and his coaching staff have or have not learned from past encounters. Living in your world must be so simple. Just because you know how you got beat last time, doesn't translate into winning the next encounter. A whole range of factors go into the result. I agree with the original poster - some posters don't know how hard it is to win and are simply ungrateful for the amazing results continually handed up to us as Geelong supporters.
 

Armo7

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No that isn't true, with such a small dataset, you can't say there is a trend. To try to claim there is one shows a profound misunderstanding of statistics. When you base your argument on weak data, only weak data is needed to refute it.
This deserves more than a thumbs up. This is the crux of the matter.
 

Armo7

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You are saying our credentials aren't as good so our points are invalid? This is ju st embarrassing, you dont need to have played the sport at a high level to be able to analyse it. Just because someone has played 200 games of AFL doesnt make them expert strategists.

I have talked before about game theory but those kinds of posts get ignored because people like yourself cant understand it so you just complain about the constant negativity.

Here is another fact for you, when people post analysis that gets ignored they end up just posting their opinions without the analysis.
I'll say it again - you are completely naive to think you have anywhere near a level of insight to correct Chris Scott of supposed flaws in strategy. These are experts that live and breathe the game over a 20 year period. But you with your weekend analysis of course know better than Scott, his assistants, his director of coaching and Brian Cook. Please… just for a moment take a step back… and realise how stupid that sounds.
 

The rabbi

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Dunno about scuttlebutt. I recently read an interview with Gillies where that was the case. So can take that as fact.
Fact.
Just because a disgruntled ex player said something that does not make it a fact.
He was delusional. He also said something along the lines that he was denied a chance at a premiership with the Hawks because the Cats refused to release him to the Hawks. I used to watch him regularly in the VFL and the bloke could not even take a contested mark.
It should not be too hard to find my criticisms of his inability to take a contested mark or hold his position in a contest. He was also delisted from the worst team in the competition in Melbourne at the time.
I take what players with a bruised ego say with a reasonable amount of scepticism.
 
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Spazz Cat

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The rabbi

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Spazz Cat

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I suppose that you also believe that Tom Gillies was robbed of a threepeat chance too.
Ok mate he is completely lying. Chris Scott talked to him all the time.
Makes me really wonder why CS hasn't come out and said something or even more amazingly it can still be found on the official AFL website.
Guess that whole article is a total fabrication then.
 

The rabbi

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That's just scuttlebutt. If that is real and you are hearing it, then Brian Cook is definitely aware of it. And as we know with the Thomson review, Cook knows how to identify and solve problems.
Here is interview.
http://m.afl.com.au/news/2017-10-12/flagging-fortunes-how-tom-missed-threepeat-chance
You're saying he's lying about his ex coach on the AFL website.
F**k me dead. People will make up anything if it doesn't show the club to be perfect in every way.
Ok mate he is completely lying. Chris Scott talked to him all the time.
Makes me really wonder why CS hasn't come out and said something or even more amazingly it can still be found on the official AFL website.
Guess that whole article is a total fabrication then.
Mate, you are basing your argument on an article that only has this one negative statement in it.

"Clarkson was willing to give him an extended run down back in his preferred role. That was enough to prompt Gillies to invite Geelong coach Chris Scott for a coffee, after the Cats won the 2011 premiership, to reveal he wanted to join the Hawks.

They had never spoken at length, other than in exit interviews, before that day".
 

The rabbi

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FACT: In the past 3 finals series we have been comprehensively SMASHED in finals in the same manner. Coaching staff hasn't learned from those mistakes. Home and away victories mean literally nothing when you have back to back smackings in Preliminary Finals that is embarrassing for anyone associated with the club.
You don't think that it has anything to do with the team just not being good enough.
I think that our forward line is really quite ordinary and relies far too much on 1 or 2 players.
The smaller players add little to no forward pressure and there has been no smalls who can crumb a ball since Chapman wore the hoops.
 

Spazz Cat

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Mate, you are basing your argument on an article that only has this one negative statement in it.

"Clarkson was willing to give him an extended run down back in his preferred role. That was enough to prompt Gillies to invite Geelong coach Chris Scott for a coffee, after the Cats won the 2011 premiership, to reveal he wanted to join the Hawks.

They had never spoken at length, other than in exit interviews, before that day".
Hey I wasn't the one calling something scuttlebutt without a shred of evidence to back it up.
Rather have some evidence than none at all
 

Spazz Cat

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It just reeks of desperation when your evidence is that thin.
Not really. He didn't turn up to exit interviews too that is a fact.
At least I'm not using the rumours and comments from ex players (who didn't even play under CS) and claiming them as facts.
I'd rather say actual things that happened even if it's not much.
Is also better than trying to completely dismiss views and call them scuttlebutt when I've got absolutely nothing to back it up.
 

And_ROOS

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Bullshit. Nothing embarrassing about reaching a preliminary final and losing to a side that was clearly the leading team all year. Not to mention we played them on their home ground. And as stated above, Geelong is essentially a whole new list with 28 new players since 2011. You are naive to think you have some insight exceeding Scott's regarding performing better in preliminary finals. Richmond did the job comprehensively on GWS in the other preliminary final. And the repeat result of a sound beating in a preliminary final says nothing about what Scott and his coaching staff have or have not learned from past encounters. Living in your world must be so simple. Just because you know how you got beat last time, doesn't translate into winning the next encounter. A whole range of factors go into the result. I agree with the original poster - some posters don't know how hard it is to win and are simply ungrateful for the amazing results continually handed up to us as Geelong supporters.
I call bullshit on your bullshit. These are PROFESSIONAL coaches, they spend all their time analyzing and coming up with game plans. Yet the LAST 3 FINALS we have lost have been IDENTICAL. Wrong personnel on the field (too tall in defence, and that was only rectified in the Swans final because Lonergan was sick). How come we keep getting beating the same way? I appreciate how hard it is to win finals I have played sports my whole life, and you can bring up the fact its a new list but as a person who follows Arsenal I am telling you IF YOU HAVE A COACH who DOES NOT HAVE the right PLAYING STYLE AND PHILOSOPHY then Geelong could get a time machine and bring the best players into their team and they would still get beaten. It is as simple as that. Something is wrong with Scotts game plan IN FINALS. He proved once he knew what he was doing, in 2011 leading into finals we handballed significantly more than we did in finals, meaning the ball movement was faster to our forwards. That proves that he can make changes when he sees fit.

How did we beat Richmond with a SIGNIFICANTLY weaker team at SS but then get absolutely hosed off the park by them in 2 quarters in the QF hmm? We had better players in the side. Their side didn't change that much at all. That would suggest 2 things. Game plan, of which on the MCG and during finals ours fails, and preparation, as their players looked on and we had a ton of passengers.

And theres nothing embarrassing about reaching a prelim final. What is embarrassing is that our last finals losses have seen our opposition, 3 different teams mind you, expose us in the exact same manner.
 

The Emu

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I call bullshit on your bullshit. These are PROFESSIONAL coaches, they spend all their time analyzing and coming up with game plans. Yet the LAST 3 FINALS we have lost have been IDENTICAL. Wrong personnel on the field (too tall in defence, and that was only rectified in the Swans final because Lonergan was sick). How come we keep getting beating the same way? I appreciate how hard it is to win finals I have played sports my whole life, and you can bring up the fact its a new list but as a person who follows Arsenal I am telling you IF YOU HAVE A COACH who DOES NOT HAVE the right PLAYING STYLE AND PHILOSOPHY then Geelong could get a time machine and bring the best players into their team and they would still get beaten. It is as simple as that. Something is wrong with Scotts game plan IN FINALS. He proved once he knew what he was doing, in 2011 leading into finals we handballed significantly more than we did in finals, meaning the ball movement was faster to our forwards. That proves that he can make changes when he sees fit.

How did we beat Richmond with a SIGNIFICANTLY weaker team at SS but then get absolutely hosed off the park by them in 2 quarters in the QF hmm? We had better players in the side. Their side didn't change that much at all. That would suggest 2 things. Game plan, of which on the MCG and during finals ours fails, and preparation, as their players looked on and we had a ton of passengers.

And theres nothing embarrassing about reaching a prelim final. What is embarrassing is that our last finals losses have seen our opposition, 3 different teams mind you, expose us in the exact same manner.
Shh dude stop using logic... No one can say anything negative about the messiah - he is the perfect coach. His H&A record matches his finals record. We got smashed on different dates so it doesn't count - there is no correlation even though the way we played and got blown off the park was close to identical.. Nothing wrong with our tactics - Scott is a legend. Peace out bye. He has managed to win a premiership 7 years ago and has proven it wasn't a fluke by making finals and getting blown to pieces time and time again. Teams we smashed in H&A we smash in finals... He has managed to turn the whole list over even though we constantly rely on just our superstars who carry the rest of the team. Our forward line has been functioning perfectly for so long and our recruiting of non-injury prone players is second to none.
 
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Shh dude stop using logic... No one can say anything negative about the messiah - he is the perfect coach. His H&A record matches his finals record. We got smashed on different dates so it doesn't count - there is no correlation even though the way we played and got blown off the park was close to identical.. Nothing wrong with our tactics - Scott is a legend. Peace out bye. He has managed to win a premiership 7 years ago and has proven it wasn't a fluke by making finals and getting blown to pieces time and time again. Teams we smashed in H&A we smash in finals... He has managed to turn the whole list over even though we constantly rely on just our superstars who carry the rest of the team. Our forward line has been functioning perfectly for so long and our recruiting of non-injury prone players is second to none.
Said no one ever.

Apart from you, of course, in your vainglorious attempts to construct the most epic straw man of all time.

And this particular post is truly some of your very best work in that regard. It really must be the depths of the off season to have you providing this 'quality' of posting simply to keep your favourite thread ticking over.
 

Partridge

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You do realise that overall finals record of 6-8, would be 7-7 if just one loss was converted to a win? Hardly a damning statistic.
I never said it was damning. I didn’t say anything about it. That’s entirely your interpretation. I just listed his full finals record.

And with regard to the most recent record of 3-8, you have to appreciate that the list has been almost completely rebuilt (28 new players added to the list as stated above). Scott and Cook's stated objective was always to regenerate the list and at the same time remain competitive. The results have been a resounding success for that stated strategy. Nothing short of amazing really in a competition which self-equalising mechanisms.
What’s really amazing is to read a 3–8 finals record described as a resounding success.

I think you got used to winning premierships between 2007 and 2011, and you are not coping with the fact that the rest of the very best teams have caught up and have our measure when it really counts of late. There have been numerous teams that endured a poor finals record before eventually busting through to the grand final. Like just about everyone here, I'm not an expert - but I certainly haven't heard any compelling commentary that identifies much less proves Scott has some glaring deficiencies.
That’s very nice. I think you’re making shit up to suit yourself. If you’d paid any attention you might have noticed I actually have coped quite nicely with the post-premiership years (and continue to do so). You’re more than welcome to look in the autopsy threads of both the Richmond and Adelaide finals and see how many times I called for Scott’s head (hint: it’s between -1 and 1). If you do I’d be happy to discuss it. If not, admit you were wrong.

So do you think Adelaide and Richmond have gone past us, and are the very best teams right now? Not a view that would be generally endorsed by quite a number on here.
 

barmy44

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to use an analogy - which will only ever stretch so far, so it wont be perfect - how i see 'keeping scott', and how i belive the club might see it is:

scott is $100,000. not an amazing amount of money, but you can do a lot with it. you cant retire on it (so it isnt perfect), but you have it. not a whole lot has to go right for it to be exactly what is needed though, if you find the perfect deal on a property say. a bit like finishing top 4 more often than not - a few things fall your way, you can win it all even if you arent the best in it - outside the 8, and theres no chance no matter what.

OR - you could trade it for the mystery box!

get lucky, and the box might have $10 million in it. never work again, buy anything youve ever wanted! that $100,000 you risked to get it would look awful - why did i ever consider not risking it for this!

or you could get a $15 spendless shoes voucher. boy, if the box contained that, the $100,000 would look so good in hindsight.

sure, scott isnt everything youve ever wanted as he stands, but a bird in the hand, the grass is always greener, and all that stuff.

give him up, and we could do a whole lot better. or we might no be a threat again for a long time.

easy to say what the 'right thing for the club to do' is when there is no possibility of your plan going wrong and being made to look a fool.
 
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