Opinion Chris Scott's coaching - PART III

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00VicWard001

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I think Geel are like Nth Melb ( up to the end of 2016) stuck with an average list - who perform well - slightly above expectations during home and away- and then are exposed big time in the finals

If Petrie ( who has played very well for the Eagles ) and Harvey ( who was still playing really well ) Del Santo and Firrito hadnt all been sacked/finished up - plus give them the Simonds home ground advantage ( good for a couple of extra wins ) - they would have made the 8 ( like they had for the previous 3-4) years - and just like Geel they got exposed in the finals - a mile off a flag - so what do you - its a tough position to be in

Mackie and Lonegran finish up ( thats like Petrie and Harvey ) - so the Cats have to tumble down the ladder next year - which i dont think is such a bad thing - because the Geelong Brand is copping a hammering at the moment ( ie make the finals but dont fire a shot )
I feel like this might be Biggy_Boy's underlying point in his general counter-arguments (correct me if I'm wrong).

As a loyal geelong fan, he would rather us not make the finals than be hammered in them and recreate a potential 'handbag' legacy of underperforming when it counts. His thinking is that once Scott is gone, and the team goes down a bit, it can rebuild a culture with a clean slate. In fact, the anchor of underperforming in finals may completely disappear if we dip for 2 years, draft a couple of kids, and then we make the bottom of the 8 and climb up slowly. If we lose in the finals in these situations, the expectation is not so high, rather it is exactly where the team is at at this very moment.
 

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cynical

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I think Geel are like Nth Melb ( up to the end of 2016) stuck with an average list - who perform well - slightly above expectations during home and away- and then are exposed big time in the finals

If Petrie ( who has played very well for the Eagles ) and Harvey ( who was still playing really well ) Del Santo and Firrito hadnt all been sacked/finished up - plus give them the Simonds home ground advantage ( good for a couple of extra wins ) - they would have made the 8 ( like they had for the previous 3-4) years - and just like Geel they got exposed in the finals - a mile off a flag - so what do you - its a tough position to be in

Mackie and Lonegran finish up ( thats like Petrie and Harvey ) - so the Cats have to tumble down the ladder next year - which i dont think is such a bad thing - because the Geelong Brand is copping a hammering at the moment ( ie make the finals but dont fire a shot )
We are North 2.0, just not enough skilled players and a lot of B graders.

All our good players are old and we have too many of the same types.

We have a workman like team where everyone has to get a lot of possessions to contribute because they lack skills.

We need players who will only get 10-15 possessions but would still be considered playing well because what they do is elite.

Someone like a Varcoe (who although doesnt seem to do that much) when he does get the ball uses it well. We just dont have those kinds of players anymore.

The whole team is inside grunt but we dont have outside class. Mitch Duncan is it (Motlop and Guthrie have fallen away, Cowan is done, Lang cant get a game, neither can GHS, Mackie is retiring)

When our already average forwardline has the likes of Danger (9 clangers), the Selwoods, Menegola and Blicavs kicking to them they dont have much hope.
 
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Chris Scott is publicly let hung out to dry because he dumps Menzel and we kick 5 lousy goals in a final. Menzel and the team are the victims, and coach Scott is the bad guy.

Don't believe it. That is not how clubs operate. If they want it hidden, he isn't omitted, its an injury. Omission is different.

Oh, and how come we only hear about this AFTER we lose? Gossip does not work like that.

jmo, its a beat-up. A little smoke, no fire.

Here's a rumour: the forward coach said Menzel was ready to go, and Scott said "Nah", because relations between the two had broken down this season over the way Menzel was playing (lack of pressure efforts)
My initial thinking was similar. Why not just say 'soreness'?

On further thought there's two things in play. One, do we want the additional pressure of having to be caught up in the media hullabaloo that would arise from leaving out a percieved key player for disciplinary reasons before a huge finals game? Two, while we as a club may have cooled on Menz the player, another rest for soreness may affect his ability to get a better deal elsewhere. Just because we may no longer rate him as highly, and could just part ways at no cost to us, we aren't the sort of club to make things harder for him to find a more suitable home while we push him out the door.

We've tried to do quite a bit of hosing down with regards to a few matters during this season, so I don't see the scenario as terribly unrealistic.
 

cynical

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I feel like this might be Biggy_Boy's underlying point in his general counter-arguments (correct me if I'm wrong).

As a loyal geelong fan, he would rather us not make the finals than be hammered in them and recreate a potential 'handbag' legacy of underperforming when it counts. His thinking is that once Scott is gone, and the team goes down a bit, it can rebuild a culture with a clean slate. In fact, the anchor of underperforming in finals may completely disappear if we dip for 2 years, draft a couple of kids, and then we make the bottom of the 8 and climb up slowly. If we lose in the finals in these situations, the expectation is not so high, rather it is exactly where the team is at at this very moment.
I think a lot of us anti Scott posters think that way, if we make finals we want to be a genuine chance not just make up the numbers.

The optimists want us to make finals each year so they can carry on with their false hope of a flag.

Then they can talk about "if only" or how unlucky we are, AFL conspiracies etc.

As the rubbish team we are i want us to rebuild and find players who can stand up in finals even if it means losing most weeks and finishing 14th. Then at least supporters can be optimistic about future players, cant be optimistic at the moment most of our kids are pick 60+ and the good ones are always injured.
 

00VicWard001

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I think a lot of us anti Scott posters think that way, if we make finals we want to be a genuine chance not just make up the numbers.

The optimists want us to make finals each year so they can carry on with their false hope of a flag.

Then they can talk about "if only" or how unlucky we are, AFL conspiracies etc.

As the rubbish team we are i want us to rebuild and find players who can stand up in finals even if it means losing most weeks and finishing 14th. Then at least supporters can be optimistic about future players, cant be optimistic at the moment most of our kids are pick 60+ and the good ones are always injured.
It's an interesting, brutal and valid opinion all in one.

I guess as one of the optimistic supporters, I'm just hoping that by being in this position, we can jag one like the Dogs, or even the Hawks during their three peat where there were some lucky moments, or even that kick forward along the ground by Scarlett in 2009 (notice the three missed kicks along the ground West Coast had the other night right in front of goal??? That's generally what happens when players try and kick it off the ground).

I'm very much a realist and know where our list lies compared to other teams, we're simply not in the running if we put teams side by side on paper. Essentially we are exactly what the start of year experts identified us at. Average to Good.

However, the game is a strange one where some teams underperform at crucial stages, injuries happen, the energy is all wrong and the ball bounces the wrong way. Last year, the Swans were planning to stomp the Bulldogs. They had the same list as this year, exceptional players on every line, but it just didn't go that way.
 

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I think a lot of us anti Scott posters think that way, if we make finals we want to be a genuine chance not just make up the numbers.

The optimists want us to make finals each year so they can carry on with their false hope of a flag.

Then they can talk about "if only" or how unlucky we are, AFL conspiracies etc.

As the rubbish team we are i want us to rebuild and find players who can stand up in finals even if it means losing most weeks and finishing 14th. Then at least supporters can be optimistic about future players, cant be optimistic at the moment most of our kids are pick 60+ and the good ones are always injured.
I like your post but am not anti CS. Not sure where that places me.
Anyway, things happen for a reason, and we are never in the wilderness forever.
I can understand their initial assessment that maybe we had a few class players left, and that if we replenished with mature proven players, we could contend, but I also see the opposing view that we are never going to win a flag this way, and we are deferring the inevitable slide and rebuild.
My main argument has been, and still is, that there are no guarantees winning a flag with a traditional rebuild, they are that hard to get even when a team is totally dominant and loses 1 game all season (08), so why not optimise a list that looked too good to let go to the bottom.
 
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I think a lot of us anti Scott posters think that way, if we make finals we want to be a genuine chance not just make up the numbers.

The optimists want us to make finals each year so they can carry on with their false hope of a flag.

Then they can talk about "if only" or how unlucky we are, AFL conspiracies etc.

As the rubbish team we are i want us to rebuild and find players who can stand up in finals even if it means losing most weeks and finishing 14th. Then at least supporters can be optimistic about future players, cant be optimistic at the moment most of our kids are pick 60+ and the good ones are always injured.
Ah, yes. How wonderful it is to be optimistic! Just ask St Kilda supporters. How long have they been optimistic? Forty-one years. And Melbourne? Forty-four. Richmond? Thirty-seven. Maybe, just maybe, they're on the right track to a premiership, but we will see.

If it were as easy as just dropping down for a couple of years and then inexorably making your way into the bottom of the eight and from there to the premiership, why isn't everyone doing it?

It's not a matter of optimists and pessimists. Some of us know that there are no guarantees about this fantasy 'rebuild'. Some teams choose the wrong coach once, twice or more before they reach the holy grail, if ever. They choose the wrong players or have bad luck with injuries or both.

The one and only Clarkson took four years to rebuild and take them to a premiership. Bomber Thompson took eight years.
 

cynical

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Ah, yes. How wonderful it is to be optimistic! Just ask St Kilda supporters. How long have they been optimistic? Forty-one years. And Melbourne? Forty-four. Richmond? Thirty-seven. Maybe, just maybe, they're on the right track to a premiership, but we will see.

If it were as easy as just dropping down for a couple of years and then inexorably making your way into the bottom of the eight and from there to the premiership, why isn't everyone doing it?

It's not a matter of optimists and pessimists. Some of us know that there are no guarantees about this fantasy 'rebuild'. Some teams choose the wrong coach once, twice or more before they reach the holy grail, if ever. They choose the wrong players or have bad luck with injuries or both.

The one and only Clarkson took four years to rebuild and take them to a premiership. Bomber Thompson took eight years.
Of course there are guarantees, i can guarantee you we wont win a flag with this current list.

so we can A) keep topping up and going nowhere or B) Build a team capable of winning a premiership and hope all goes well
 

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Of course there are guarantees, i can guarantee you we wont win a flag with this current list.

so we can A) keep topping up and going nowhere or B) Build a team capable of winning a premiership and hope all goes well
And every time you trade away a pick for an established player, that's another player you won't have coming through in 3-5 years. Look at our drafting since the last premiership. Hope no one is expecting the class of 2011-2016 to deliver success anytime soon.
 
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Of course there are guarantees, i can guarantee you we wont win a flag with this current list.

so we can A) keep topping up and going nowhere or B) Build a team capable of winning a premiership and hope all goes well
After this year, I'm happy to agree.

But how many coaches that have been at a club for several years have voluntarily undertaken a rebuild? I can't think of any. They generally slide down the ladder, then rebuild because they have no choice. Or a new coach comes in and decides to rebuild.

As others have said, the coming of free agency has given us the opportunity to top up. Before that, we would have had no choice. For better or worse, that's what we decided to do. Should we have said to Dangerfield, 'OK, you want to come back to Moggs Creek but we don't want you because we're rebuilding. You can play for a Melbourne team'.

I think some people on here have a fantasy that we would have been back up contending in a few years. Wouldn't have happened, because we had no decent picks. That's what equalisation is supposed to be about.
 

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Partridge

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Perhaps you should email Clarkson and tell him this. They're trying the exact same tactics.
Not my club. Not my problem.

But when you are trading away picks for players - a strategy fully endorsed by some on here (because developing your own players is just so last year) - don't then defend them after a finals belting with a flimsy excuse that the list suddenly isn't good enough. The club have followed this policy deliberately. It's no one else's fault but theirs.
 

Partridge

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I think some people on here have a fantasy that we would have been back up contending in a few years. Wouldn't have happened, because we had no decent picks. That's what equalisation is supposed to be about.
We've hardly ever had decent picks. Why does that stop us now?

Chapman, Ling, Enright, Milburn, Johnson. None taken in the first twenty. How is that possible?
 

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Not my club. Not my problem.

But when you are trading away picks for players - a strategy fully endorsed by some on here (because developing your own players is just so last year) - don't then defend them after a finals belting with a flimsy excuse that the list suddenly isn't good enough. The club have followed this policy deliberately. It's no one else's fault but theirs.
Yep. They would of been called geniuses and got the deserved praise if it paid off.
Nothing wrong with taking the blame if it's a failure. Just delaying the inevitable for more years and the new kids won't have a Selwood, Hawkins, Taylor Lonegan etc in their prime to learn from.
 
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Not my club. Not my problem.

But when you are trading away picks for players - a strategy fully endorsed by some on here (because developing your own players is just so last year) - don't then defend them after a finals belting with a flimsy excuse that the list suddenly isn't good enough. The club have followed this policy deliberately. It's no one else's fault but theirs.
Others on here, including Biggy, seem to think that Clarkson is a genius and can do no wrong.

The club took a calculated risk. If they'd gone the other way it would have been a risk also.

I don't recall many supporters asking for a rebuild five years ago. It's easy to be wise in retrospect.
 

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We've hardly ever had decent picks. Why does that stop us now?

Chapman, Ling, Enright, Milburn, Johnson. None taken in the first twenty. How is that possible?
Cause we did it the right way. In no way was it a Melbourne/ Carlton style rebuild.
We didn't throw a bunch of kids in the deep end from the start.
Good players played plenty of VFL. Some far more VFL time than fans thoughts necessary.
 

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Others on here, including Biggy, seem to think that Clarkson is a genius and can do no wrong.

The club took a calculated risk. If they'd gone the other way it would have been a risk also.

I don't recall many supporters asking for a rebuild five years ago. It's easy to be wise in retrospect.
Not entirely sure what Biggy has to do with anything.

I didn't ask for a rebuild five years ago, nor one now. I'd prefer we kept our picks and developed our own players. Every year. It's continuous. There are never guarantees, but I've seen that method deliver three premierships. Which seems to be compelling evidence. Myself and others definitely questioned some of the trades that were done five years ago and since - no way is it just in retrospect.

Speaking of which, we're coming up on the five year anniversary of the McIntosh trade. Perhaps we can name a golden crutch in his honour.
 

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My initial thinking was similar. Why not just say 'soreness'?

On further thought there's two things in play. One, do we want the additional pressure of having to be caught up in the media hullabaloo that would arise from leaving out a percieved key player for disciplinary reasons before a huge finals game? Two, while we as a club may have cooled on Menz the player, another rest for soreness may affect his ability to get a better deal elsewhere. Just because we may no longer rate him as highly, and could just part ways at no cost to us, we aren't the sort of club to make things harder for him to find a more suitable home while we push him out the door.

We've tried to do quite a bit of hosing down with regards to a few matters during this season, so I don't see the scenario as terribly unrealistic.
None of it makes sense. I can't imagine Menzel Blowing a chance at a premiership by going out on the turps unless he knew that he wasn't going to be picked. Again 2013 play one player all year then drop them for some reason- in that case it was Hawkins to save him for the next big finals game. Problem is we didn't make the next big game. Same this year you have to play to win each game one at a time. Scott has no strategy or tactics to do that.
 

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Camporeale, Barker, Harvey, Burns, Sanderson, McKenna, Eade, McCartney, Voss, Caracella, Kingsley, Dew....

There is plenty of coaching talent available to be poached. I would like to see Caracella, McCartney and Adam Kingsley to replace Scott, Knights and Lloyd. Maybe Sanderson to come back into some role aswell. VFL coach?

Are they better? How can you ever know?
Can't be worse than where we are now.
 
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We've hardly ever had decent picks. Why does that stop us now?

Chapman, Ling, Enright, Milburn, Johnson. None taken in the first twenty. How is that possible?
All great players. An amazing team, the likes of which will probably never be assembled again. We can thank Stephen Wells for that. Not sure how much input Bomber had.

But Stephen Wells has gone off, as you're reminding us. We haven't done that well lately, have we? Perhaps we need another genius recruiter.

But let's name the others: Corey (8th pick), Selwood (7th pick), Ottens, (2nd pick, traded in), Ablett and Scarlett (freak father and son players who we got for third rounders - before they changed the rules).
 

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I feel like this might be Biggy_Boy's underlying point in his general counter-arguments (correct me if I'm wrong).

As a loyal geelong fan, he would rather us not make the finals than be hammered in them and recreate a potential 'handbag' legacy of underperforming when it counts. His thinking is that once Scott is gone, and the team goes down a bit, it can rebuild a culture with a clean slate. In fact, the anchor of underperforming in finals may completely disappear if we dip for 2 years, draft a couple of kids, and then we make the bottom of the 8 and climb up slowly. If we lose in the finals in these situations, the expectation is not so high, rather it is exactly where the team is at at this very moment.
no real problem with that personally - but im not a club decision maker, so i dont really stress myself with it. ive supported through worse, and will keep doing so. an ex-boss who im in regular contact with LOVES the cats, long time member, hates scott wants him gone. thats cool, we can discuss it and we dont get angry at each other over it.

the assumption on here that people who want scott gone must necessarilly be 'negatives' or 'trolls' does wear very thin.

as ive said a few times, i believe we were very possibly 4 very lucky wins from finishing 10th-12th (north, hawks, freo, power), and hawkins almost putting his drawing behind OOF against GWS.

instead we finished 2nd with a seemingly fair run to potentially another premiership. unfortunately we got hammered and likely wont be winning this years. there is 'blame' for where the club is right now that can be apportioned in many different areas.

its very easy (this goes to both 'sides' of the debate, and even the oft neglected middle...) to say what we 'should do' without any danger of this plan being tested.
 
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