Opinion Chris Scott's coaching - PART III

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Landgraft

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Dangerfield yes, those deals don't come along often. I look at the Ottens trade as being very similar. Henderson yes, but not for a first round pick. Smith I'm not sure and Tuohy no.

You have to include others too. Since the last flag it also includes Rivers, McIntosh, Clark, Stanley, and Scott Selwood.
I didn't pick you for a zealot, yet here you are - a blind adherent to draft dogma.

For me the Tuohy trade is a litmus test, it checks whether someone can evaluate picks as currency to identify value or if they just think of R1 picks as an ironclad currency. The Tuohy trade is going to functionally be a 6 (or less) place slide in the order as well as shedding some flotsam. In exchange for a guy with probably 4 years of A grade footy in him that solved a pressing need.

If you think that keeping a R1 pick is so valuable you wouldn't do that then I'm afraid for the price you would place on them - and consequently what a disaster it is when they turn out to just be decent like Lang or Thurlow, never mind Smedts.
 

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Partridge

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I didn't pick you for a zealot, yet here you are - a blind adherent to draft dogma.

For me the Tuohy trade is a litmus test, it checks whether someone can evaluate picks as currency to identify value or if they just think of R1 picks as an ironclad currency. The Tuohy trade is going to functionally be a 6 (or less) place slide in the order as well as shedding some flotsam. In exchange for a guy with probably 4 years of A grade footy in him that solved a pressing need.

If you think that keeping a R1 pick is so valuable you wouldn't do that then I'm afraid for the price you would place on them - and consequently what a disaster it is when they turn out to just be decent like Lang or Thurlow, never mind Smedts.
It would seem we disagree on the value of draft picks. No big deal.

And I'm far from a zealot, but I'd like to see evidence of a method succeeding first. If we win the premiership this year you watch how fast I'll be drinking the free agency kool aid. Until then I'm going with the only method I've seen work.
 

Landgraft

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It would seem we disagree on the value of draft picks. No big deal.

And I'm far from a zealot, but I'd like to see evidence of a method succeeding first. If we win the premiership this year you watch how fast I'll be drinking the free agency kool aid. Until then I'm going with the only method I've seen work.
But its a 6 place slide in the order, not a shedding of picks unless you wanted another hail mary last year? I think if you look at our draft history we'd probably take someone at 13 who'll be there at 19 anyway, on the off chance we don't just trade it for D. Smith/Stringer/whoever.
 

cynical

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I didn't pick you for a zealot, yet here you are - a blind adherent to draft dogma.

For me the Tuohy trade is a litmus test, it checks whether someone can evaluate picks as currency to identify value or if they just think of R1 picks as an ironclad currency. The Tuohy trade is going to functionally be a 6 (or less) place slide in the order as well as shedding some flotsam. In exchange for a guy with probably 4 years of A grade footy in him that solved a pressing need.

If you think that keeping a R1 pick is so valuable you wouldn't do that then I'm afraid for the price you would place on them - and consequently what a disaster it is when they turn out to just be decent like Lang or Thurlow, never mind Smedts.
The Tuohy trade was poor, it's not just the 6 pick difference (it could have been a lot more).

Tuohy isnt an A grader he is a good B grader but he isnt elite.

At 27 he doesnt have 4 years of A grade footy. Most players go downhill at 28 so we probably get 3 years of solid B+ footy and then he'll just be an average player.

During the time he plays for us we lose a position for a kid to play and we get a worse draft pick for finishing higher on the ladder.

If we had a team good enough for a flag then yes its a good pickup but we dont, we are topping up to finish top 4 and not contend.

A team that got smashed in a prelim last year doesnt get better by replacing Enright with Tuohy, it just treads water.
 

dazbroncos

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The Tuohy trade was poor, it's not just the 6 pick difference (it could have been a lot more).

Tuohy isnt an A grader he is a good B grader but he isnt elite.

At 27 he doesnt have 4 years of A grade footy. Most players go downhill at 28 so we probably get 3 years of solid B+ footy and then he'll just be an average player.

During the time he plays for us we lose a position for a kid to play and we get a worse draft pick for finishing higher on the ladder.

If we had a team good enough for a flag then yes its a good pickup but we dont, we are topping up to finish top 4 and not contend.

A team that got smashed in a prelim last year doesnt get better by replacing Enright with Tuohy, it just treads water.
Given the resources available, please enlighten us with what we would gotten better than Boris for the price we paid that was available at the time.

And it was Smedts and a Rd1 pick in the mid teens.

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The Tuohy trade was poor, it's not just the 6 pick difference (it could have been a lot more).

Tuohy isnt an A grader he is a good B grader but he isnt elite.

At 27 he doesnt have 4 years of A grade footy. Most players go downhill at 28 so we probably get 3 years of solid B+ footy and then he'll just be an average player.

During the time he plays for us we lose a position for a kid to play and we get a worse draft pick for finishing higher on the ladder.

If we had a team good enough for a flag then yes its a good pickup but we dont, we are topping up to finish top 4 and not contend.

A team that got smashed in a prelim last year doesnt get better by replacing Enright with Tuohy, it just treads water.
Terrible take.

The Tuohy trade was a steal on any measure.
 

Whit3y

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If you think that keeping a R1 pick is so valuable you wouldn't do that then I'm afraid for the price you would place on them - and consequently what a disaster it is when they turn out to just be decent like Lang or Thurlow, never mind Smedts.
in wells we trust?
 

barmy44

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in wells we trust?
ive thought for a while that wells believes his own hype too much, whether consciously or sub-consciously...

perhaps sees himself as the 'out of the box' picker, and passes safe players - even ones that fill a need - in favour of 'wells picks'.

not a great success rate at it recently... also i worry that he picks players with our rd 1 picks that would likely be there in the 2nd, sometimes 3rd, anyway.

of course, thats just my own assumption from a long way away.

and as i always say, its his job and his career - and while he has it, he has every right to do it as he sees fit.

just my thoughts.
 

Landgraft

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The Tuohy trade was poor, it's not just the 6 pick difference (it could have been a lot more).
So you really value Smedts and a late pick, huh?

I don't think there's any credence in arguing that our list would be better off if you took a good player off it for fear that said player will fall off a cliff at 28 - you shouldn't really expect that to happen until they cross 30, and even then elite kicking HBF are a type that go really well as veterans.
 

cynical

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So you really value Smedts and a late pick, huh?

I don't think there's any credence in arguing that our list would be better off if you took a good player off it for fear that said player will fall off a cliff at 28 - you shouldn't really expect that to happen until they cross 30, and even then elite kicking HBF are a type that go really well as veterans.
I would rather finish lower on the ladder and have a kid play the spot instead of a B grade topup who is cooked in 3-5years.

By having Tuohy in the side we finish higher on the ladder with still no chance of a flag. That means we gain less in draft picks, we also lose 80 games or so of developing another player.

Tuohy makes us better for 3 years but has no impact on us winning a flag. By not getting him we'd be stronger after 4 years and onwards.

Too much shortsightedness on this board.
 

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Vdubs

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The Tuohy trade was poor, it's not just the 6 pick difference (it could have been a lot more).

Tuohy isnt an A grader he is a good B grader but he isnt elite.

At 27 he doesnt have 4 years of A grade footy. Most players go downhill at 28 so we probably get 3 years of solid B+ footy and then he'll just be an average player.

During the time he plays for us we lose a position for a kid to play and we get a worse draft pick for finishing higher on the ladder.

If we had a team good enough for a flag then yes its a good pickup but we dont, we are topping up to finish top 4 and not contend.

A team that got smashed in a prelim last year doesnt get better by replacing Enright with Tuohy, it just treads water.
Disagree re Tuohy. One poor game. He has been a revelation. Some say the recruit of 17.
As far as having a team worthy of a flag, players like Tuohy, Danger, SS, Hendo and Smith enable that to be a possibility.
It's the underwhelming nature of our young draftees that has not kept up with our lofty standards of drafts from 2000 . Our bottom tier is substantial.
 

Farmer2Goggin

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I am sick of finishing "in a position to contend" and then not contending when its time. That is Scotts mantra. The buck stops with him. We need more talent. We are now in the spot where we have to trade for it. It won't last forever. In a few years we are going to crash down hard and I would rather not be looking for a new coaching staff at the same time.
Seems we have had two clear options since our "era" has come to a close :
> retire the champs progressively , probably slip down the ladder as we top the list up with the resultant lower draft picks - major rebuild strategy
> retire the champs progressively , fill the gaps by trading on a needs basis by using picks and making the most of resultant higher draft picks - major top up strategy
> ensure we are financially strong in order to facilitate the stadium rebuild and secure our future as having our own home ground

There is lots of available evidence so I'll choose a few examples :
> Hawks won their flags with the top up model and whilst they missed finals this year seem well placed to contend again in 2018 with further use of the top up model plus development of players most of whom were higher type picks
> Dees ,Saints and Blues have gone the rebuild and none are playing finals , long journey so far and no guarantees of this happening in 2018
> Giants are stack full of sub 10 picks but still have the job ahead of them
> Cats have grown Membership and are well placed financially

I think the Club has chosen the right strategy for both on and off field reasons :)
 

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Seems we have had two clear options since our "era" has come to a close :
> retire the champs progressively , probably slip down the ladder as we top the list up with the resultant lower draft picks - major rebuild strategy
> retire the champs progressively , fill the gaps by trading on a needs basis by using picks and making the most of resultant higher draft picks - major top up strategy
> ensure we are financially strong in order to facilitate the stadium rebuild and secure our future as having our own home ground

There is lots of available evidence so I'll choose a few examples :
> Hawks won their flags with the top up model and whilst they missed finals this year seem well placed to contend again in 2018 with further use of the top up model plus development of players most of whom were higher type picks
> Dees ,Saints and Blues have gone the rebuild and none are playing finals , long journey so far and no guarantees of this happening in 2018
> Giants are stack full of sub 10 picks but still have the job ahead of them
> Cats have grown Membership and are well placed financially

I think the Club has chosen the right strategy for both on and off field reasons :)
And the 3peat Lions , where are they?
They might have emerging talent, but they have been awol since 2004
 

Partridge

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Disagree re Tuohy. One poor game. He has been a revelation. Some say the recruit of 17.
As far as having a team worthy of a flag, players like Tuohy, Danger, SS, Hendo and Smith enable that to be a possibility.
It's the underwhelming nature of our young draftees that has not kept up with our lofty standards of drafts from 2000 . Our bottom tier is substantial.
That one poor game was the most important game of the year. And it's been more than one too.

Those players you listed, yep that's the theory, they make flag a possibility. None of them had good games on Friday night. Scott Selwood at least put in a committed four quarter effort. If they aren't able to perform September what exactly did we recruit them for?
 

Landgraft

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I would rather finish lower on the ladder and have a kid play the spot instead of a B grade topup who is cooked in 3-5years.

By having Tuohy in the side we finish higher on the ladder with still no chance of a flag. That means we gain less in draft picks, we also lose 80 games or so of developing another player.

Tuohy makes us better for 3 years but has no impact on us winning a flag. By not getting him we'd be stronger after 4 years and onwards.

Too much shortsightedness on this board.
You want to talk about shortsightedness, what about presuming that merely having the draft picks will mean anything? That's just step one in a laborious process that will definitely make the team worse with no guarantee of the team getting better.

The assumption that a critical mass of good kids will ensure success has failed repeatedly while you rail against the idea that a very slight draft slide in order to improve the team is short-sighted. Give me a ******* spell.

Here are some other things Tuohy can help bring

- A leadership/role model presence for kids like Mark O'Connor with the chance that having an established Irish presence will help attract Gaelic talent in the future
- Being acknowledged by Danger as the best kick in our team means he can probably help other players with their kicking, especially guys like Sav who aren't from an AFL background and might need help adjusting to the ball
- Helping to build fierce competition for spots in the team and thus try and reduce complacency amongst draftees who could otherwise end up coasting along.

You have a binary view of complex decisions with too many moving parts to count. And I feel sorry for you that you aren't able to fully appreciate the Tuohy trade because its the best I've seen us make in years from a value perspective.
 

cynical

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Disagree re Tuohy. One poor game. He has been a revelation. Some say the recruit of 17.
As far as having a team worthy of a flag, players like Tuohy, Danger, SS, Hendo and Smith enable that to be a possibility.
It's the underwhelming nature of our young draftees that has not kept up with our lofty standards of drafts from 2000 . Our bottom tier is substantial.
Tuohy is a B grader
Danger is an inside mid only, with limited disposal
SS is another inside mid who cant kick
Henderson is a good KB but we had 2 good ones already
Smith is an average ruck

these players dont turn us into a premiership side

maybe if we got a good CHF, a couple of good small forwards, an outside mid and a few more elite players who can hit targets and a good game plan we might be a flag chance
 

Landgraft

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That one poor game was the most important game of the year. And it's been more than one too.

Those players you listed, yep that's the theory, they make flag a possibility. None of them had good games on Friday night. Scott Selwood at least put in a committed four quarter effort. If they aren't able to perform September what exactly did we recruit them for?
As with all list management decisions you bring in players that for the price paid you think will be of net benefit to the club. Do you think, for example, that Smiths advantages over rolling out a ruck duo of Stanley/Blicz are worth two picks in the 50s? If so then you do it.

You always need to look at output over the years they'll have to run but also needs. I would always want my club to make a Tuohy trade, regardless of where it was in the premiership window because for a cheap price you improve the list for years to come. That's the fundamental principle of good list management - turning your available resources into acquisitions of a net benefit to the list. Do that 22 times and you've won the flag more often than not.
 

cynical

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You want to talk about shortsightedness, what about presuming that merely having the draft picks will mean anything? That's just step one in a laborious process that will definitely make the team worse with no guarantee of the team getting better.

The assumption that a critical mass of good kids will ensure success has failed repeatedly while you rail against the idea that a very slight draft slide in order to improve the team is short-sighted. Give me a ******* spell.

Here are some other things Tuohy can help bring

- A leadership/role model presence for kids like Mark O'Connor with the chance that having an established Irish presence will help attract Gaelic talent in the future
- Being acknowledged by Danger as the best kick in our team means he can probably help other players with their kicking, especially guys like Sav who aren't from an AFL background and might need help adjusting to the ball
- Helping to build fierce competition for spots in the team and thus try and reduce complacency amongst draftees who could otherwise end up coasting along.

You have a binary view of complex decisions with too many moving parts to count. And I feel sorry for you that you aren't able to fully appreciate the Tuohy trade because its the best I've seen us make in years from a value perspective.
If you dont already have the core talent then topping up doesnt work. We dont have a bunch of elite kids so we shouldnt be topping up.

So we are recruiting someone to help our Cat B rookie? O'Connor like other Cat B rookies and other players coming from other sports are long shots at making it.

Danger has been here a couple of years and cant kick so i wouldnt go on his opinion. Mackie and Duncan are better kicks. We have coaches for things like kicking.

There is no fierce competition for spots you are either already best 22 or you might get a run as a forward pocket.

If you go through our list we have no depth so anyone half good is getting a game regardless.

A critical mass of good kids is one component to having a successful team. Our 3 flags were built on it as were the Hawks and pretty much every successful team.
 

rocker_oz33

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The team been lacking up forward for a while now not enough spread of players that can kick goals hawkins,mez,danger major goal kickers.
Not enough guys that can tackle and put pressure on up front.
A good winger type would be noice too.
The team has done enough to make the finals but the team can't crank it up when needed.

I think CS is on huge cash and not enough left for good line coaches.
Ruck coach to help smith etc out is needed too.
 

Partridge

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Tuohy is a B grader
Danger is an inside mid only, with limited disposal
SS is another inside mid who cant kick
Henderson is a good KB but we had 2 good ones already
Smith is an average ruck

these players dont turn us into a premiership side

maybe if we got a good CHF, a couple of good small forwards, an outside mid and a few more elite players who can hit targets and a good game plan we might be a flag chance
Maybe if we could recruit players who could perform in September. That would be nice too.
 

Partridge

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If you dont already have the core talent then topping up doesnt work. We dont have a bunch of elite kids so we shouldnt be topping up.

So we are recruiting someone to help our Cat B rookie? O'Connor like other Cat B rookies and other players coming from other sports are long shots at making it.
Where you have been? That's not the important part, think of where he's come from. What a story!

At some bizarre point, the story - where a player comes from - has become far more important and more celebrated than substance and whether they can actually play the game. Then fans wonder why we get found out in finals.
 

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Tuohy is a B grader
Danger is an inside mid only, with limited disposal
SS is another inside mid who cant kick
Henderson is a good KB but we had 2 good ones already
Smith is an average ruck

these players dont turn us into a premiership side
This is probably the worst post I've ever seen
 
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