Chris Scotts coaching

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May 5, 2006
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Selectively the last 7 seasons, yes.

My own team doesn't have a particularly outstanding recent finals record.

2012 - home EF vs North won, away SF vs Collingwood lost
2013 - no finals
2014 - no finals
2015 - home QF vs Hawthorn won, home PF vs North won, GF vs Hawthorn lost
2016 - home EF vs WB lost
2017 - away EF vs Port won, away SF vs GWS lost
2018 - home QF vs Collingwood win, home PF vs Melbourne win, GF vs Collingwood win

Switching the 2016 loss to the Bulldogs and 2017 win over Port that's about what you'd expect given the H&A performances per season.

The whole point is that Geelong haven't turned strong H&A performances into finals success. 2nd, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd in a 5 year stretch for 0 prelim wins is a big reason people criticise Chris Scott. I'm not saying the criticism is fair or unfair, just pointing out why it exists. You can spin it that given the players at his disposal Chris Scott has overachieved in recent years if you like.
 
Selectively the last 7 seasons, yes.

My own team doesn't have a particularly outstanding recent finals record.

2012 - home EF vs North won, away SF vs Collingwood lost
2013 - no finals
2014 - no finals
2015 - home QF vs Hawthorn won, home PF vs North won, GF vs Hawthorn lost
2016 - home EF vs WB lost
2017 - away EF vs Port won, away SF vs GWS lost
2018 - home QF vs Collingwood win, home PF vs Melbourne win, GF vs Collingwood win

Switching the 2016 loss to the Bulldogs and 2017 win over Port that's about what you'd expect given the H&A performances per season.

The whole point is that Geelong haven't turned strong H&A performances into finals success. 2nd, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd in a 5 year stretch for 0 prelim wins is a big reason people criticise Chris Scott. I'm not saying the criticism is fair or unfair, just pointing out why it exists. You can spin it that given the players at his disposal Chris Scott has overachieved in recent years if you like.
5-1 at home

2-3 away

Imagine if Scott was given the same entitlements ... and I mean home finals at our home venue every single time we earnt the right. His record would be exceptional.
 

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This thread could have been written about
Dimma in 2016, then look what happened
Bucks in 2017, then look what happened

Geelong fans should be happy they've got the decent Scott in the box, never finished in the bottom 8.
2015 finished 10th which was his worst result.
 

Ricketz

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Selectively the last 7 seasons, yes.

My own team doesn't have a particularly outstanding recent finals record.

2012 - home EF vs North won, away SF vs Collingwood lost
2013 - no finals
2014 - no finals
2015 - home QF vs Hawthorn won, home PF vs North won, GF vs Hawthorn lost
2016 - home EF vs WB lost
2017 - away EF vs Port won, away SF vs GWS lost
2018 - home QF vs Collingwood win, home PF vs Melbourne win, GF vs Collingwood win

Switching the 2016 loss to the Bulldogs and 2017 win over Port that's about what you'd expect given the H&A performances per season.

The whole point is that Geelong haven't turned strong H&A performances into finals success. 2nd, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd in a 5 year stretch for 0 prelim wins is a big reason people criticise Chris Scott. I'm not saying the criticism is fair or unfair, just pointing out why it exists. You can spin it that given the players at his disposal Chris Scott has overachieved in recent years if you like.
The question is, should not making finals be the same as losing two straight? Any reasonable person would agree, and if you factor in all those years one shot wonders like the Dogs and Tigers spent on the outer in September, his finals record isn't that bad really.
 

BF Tiger

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5-1 at home

2-3 away

Imagine if Scott was given the same entitlements ... and I mean home finals at our home venue every single time we earnt the right. His record would be exceptional.
He does get home finals at your home venue every single time it’s been earnt. Even Geelong’s website lists the MCG as a home ground.

https://m.geelongcats.com.au/ticketing/grounds
 
May 5, 2006
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The question is, should not making finals be the same as losing two straight? Any reasonable person would agree, and if you factor in all those years one shot wonders like the Dogs and Tigers spent on the outer in September, his finals record isn't that bad really.

Bit of a different argument. Would you rather be Geelong or Richmond over the last decade? Geelong easily. The Western Bulldogs were a better team 2008-2010 than they were 2015-2017 but you'd take 4/4 one year for a flag over 3 prelim losses in a row every day of the week.

The big 3 since 2012 in H&A results have been Hawthorn (4 GFs, 3 flags), Sydney (3 GFs, 1 flag) and Geelong (0, 0). Teams that don't win flags are judged harshly in the AFL. Doesn't make it right but that's how it is. Look at last year, Collingwood make Richmond look silly and a week later Richmond fans are gloating because the Pies lose the flag by a kick.
 
May 5, 2006
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5-1 at home

2-3 away

Imagine if Scott was given the same entitlements ... and I mean home finals at our home venue every single time we earnt the right. His record would be exceptional.

Your finals record at home is 0% wins 100% losses.

If you can't capitalise on home state advantage vs Freo and Sydney it's not really anyone else's problem. The same MCG finals rules were in place when you won 3 flags in 5 years and there was no crying then.
 

Ricketz

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Bit of a different argument. Would you rather be Geelong or Richmond over the last decade? Geelong easily. The Western Bulldogs were a better team 2008-2010 than they were 2015-2017 but you'd take 4/4 one year for a flag over 3 prelim losses in a row every day of the week.

The big 3 since 2012 in H&A results have been Hawthorn (4 GFs, 3 flags), Sydney (3 GFs, 1 flag) and Geelong (0, 0). Teams that don't win flags are judged harshly in the AFL. Doesn't make it right but that's how it is. Look at last year, Collingwood make Richmond look silly and a week later Richmond fans are gloating because the Pies lose the flag by a kick.
Well, it's not really is it? Surely any coach who makes a finals series, even if they don't win a finals game, is better than a coach who doesn't make finals at all.

In fact, I am being lenient. It is probably fairer to add two final losses to the record for every four rungs down the ladder out of the finals you play. So finish 16th, it counts as four finals losses.

I mean, no one here is seriously claiming that a coach who doesn't make the finals is on the same par as a coach who does, are they?
 
Your finals record at home is 0% wins 100% losses.

If you can't capitalise on home state advantage vs Freo and Sydney it's not really anyone else's problem. The same MCG finals rules were in place when you won 3 flags in 5 years and there was no crying then.
Except their really isn't a home state advantage when you're playing your home final at your opponents home ground.

West Coast didn't have that problem. They get all their finals at their home ground ... massive, massive advantage which has been proven over the period you showed. Give Scott the same luxury to play with and he'd have an outstanding record too. The 3 premierships are irrelevant to the argument.
 
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Well, it's not really is it? Surely any coach who makes a finals series, even if they don't win a finals game, is better than a coach who doesn't make finals at all.

In fact, I am being lenient. It is probably fairer to add two final losses to the record for every four rungs down the ladder out of the finals you play. So finish 16th, it counts as four finals losses.

I mean, no one here is seriously claiming that a coach who doesn't make the finals is on the same par as a coach who does, are they?

It depends on the quality of the players at your disposal. Is Stuart Dew who currently has 3 wins a lesser coach than John Worsfold and Ross Lyon who have 4?

We were supposed to finish 9th in 2017. Melbourne slipped up, we won, good on us. Even pinched a final too. Go team. Is finishing 8th every year better than finishing 9th? Sure but you're still mid table. If we finished 8th each year and traveled interstate for finals I would expect that we'd probably win 1 in 3 or 4.

But we're not really talking about that with Geelong, we're talking about a team that has been regularly in the top 4 and hasn't converted that to finals wins. When you finish 6th, 2nd, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd in a 6 year span you would hope that translates to a better than 25% win rate.

Like I said above the whole knock has been 'great H&A side, not great finals side'. Either that changes in September or it doesn't, not much is going to change in Rd 10.
 

Ricketz

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It depends on the quality of the players at your disposal. Is Stuart Dew who currently has 3 wins a lesser coach than John Worsfold and Ross Lyon who have 4?

We were supposed to finish 9th in 2017. Melbourne slipped up, we won, good on us. Even pinched a final too. Go team. Is finishing 8th every year better than finishing 9th? Sure but you're still mid table. If we finished 8th each year and traveled interstate for finals I would expect that we'd probably win 1 in 3 or 4.

But we're not really talking about that with Geelong, we're talking about a team that has been regularly in the top 4 and hasn't converted that to finals wins. When you finish 6th, 2nd, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd in a 6 year span you would hope that translates to a better than 25% win rate.

Like I said above the whole knock has been 'great H&A side, not great finals side'. Either that changes in September or it doesn't, not much is going to change in Rd 10.
So the quality of players at your disposal is irrelevant if you make finals?

Really, you are just making my argument for me. Such a small subset of data over Scott's coaching career is inadequate for judging his capabilities in finals. If you are willing to ignore every coach who never made finals at all, and pretend that their record is somehow better because they snake a couple out of the blue, then your argument is walking around on crutches.
 

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So the quality of players at your disposal is irrelevant if you make finals?

Really, you are just making my argument for me. Such a small subset of data over Scott's coaching career is inadequate for judging his capabilities in finals. If you are willing to ignore every coach who never made finals at all, and pretend that their record is somehow better because they snake a couple out of the blue, then your argument is walking around on crutches.

The *?

Quality of players is relevant to every team, hence Clarkson was lauded last year for getting Hawthorn into 4th and people are sick of Essendon underperforming each year when they are supposed to be good. If you want to compare Chris Scott to whoever else go for your life.

Small subset? I'm talking about the last 7 consecutive seasons, 150+ matches. If you don't think that a 25% finals record is a concern for a team that has won 70% of H&A matches in the same period then good-o.
 
Selectively the last 7 seasons, yes.

My own team doesn't have a particularly outstanding recent finals record.

2012 - home EF vs North won, away SF vs Collingwood lost
2013 - no finals
2014 - no finals
2015 - home QF vs Hawthorn won, home PF vs North won, GF vs Hawthorn lost
2016 - home EF vs WB lost
2017 - away EF vs Port won, away SF vs GWS lost
2018 - home QF vs Collingwood win, home PF vs Melbourne win, GF vs Collingwood win

Switching the 2016 loss to the Bulldogs and 2017 win over Port that's about what you'd expect given the H&A performances per season.

The whole point is that Geelong haven't turned strong H&A performances into finals success. 2nd, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd in a 5 year stretch for 0 prelim wins is a big reason people criticise Chris Scott. I'm not saying the criticism is fair or unfair, just pointing out why it exists. You can spin it that given the players at his disposal Chris Scott has overachieved in recent years if you like.

A great home and away team, but can't get the job done in finals. You'd expect someone that had such a solid w/l ratio to have won more than 1 premiership since 2011.
 

King Cold

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5-1 at home

2-3 away

Imagine if Scott was given the same entitlements ... and I mean home finals at our home venue every single time we earnt the right. His record would be exceptional.

Imagine what Scott's win percentage would be if we got to play all 11 of our home games at the Cattery every year as well.
 

Do the Dew

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Well, it's not really is it? Surely any coach who makes a finals series, even if they don't win a finals game, is better than a coach who doesn't make finals at all.

In fact, I am being lenient. It is probably fairer to add two final losses to the record for every four rungs down the ladder out of the finals you play. So finish 16th, it counts as four finals losses.

I mean, no one here is seriously claiming that a coach who doesn't make the finals is on the same par as a coach who does, are they?
To paraphrase the great Tommy Hafey: "I've seen some sides that Mickey Mouse could have coached, and others that Jesus Christ might have had some trouble with".

The quality of a coach is entirely about what they get out of their players. Nothing to do with overall record/win and losses/finals etc. This is a point that the media CONSTANTLY overlooks but is also why there has been some stick given to Chris Scott on this forum. He has had a seriously good amount of talent in his team yet they haven't produced when it matters. For me, the jury is still out on whether he is a good coach or not (or the right man to lead the Cats). I think by the end of this season we'll have more concrete answers.
 

Ricketz

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To paraphrase the great Tommy Hafey: "I've seen some sides that Mickey Mouse could have coached, and others that Jesus Christ might have had some trouble with".

The quality of a coach is entirely about what they get out of their players. Nothing to do with overall record/win and losses/finals etc. This is a point that the media CONSTANTLY overlooks but is also why there has been some stick given to Chris Scott on this forum. He has had a seriously good amount of talent in his team yet they haven't produced when it matters. For me, the jury is still out on whether he is a good coach or not (or the right man to lead the Cats). I think by the end of this season we'll have more concrete answers.
Well, you completely avoided the question to champion your feels. Surely a coach that doesn't make the finals isn't as as successful as one who does?
 

gavaniacono

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To paraphrase the great Tommy Hafey: "I've seen some sides that Mickey Mouse could have coached, and others that Jesus Christ might have had some trouble with".

The quality of a coach is entirely about what they get out of their players. Nothing to do with overall record/win and losses/finals etc. This is a point that the media CONSTANTLY overlooks but is also why there has been some stick given to Chris Scott on this forum. He has had a seriously good amount of talent in his team yet they haven't produced when it matters. For me, the jury is still out on whether he is a good coach or not (or the right man to lead the Cats). I think by the end of this season we'll have more concrete answers.
Lethal thought that Malthouse's reign at Dogs was extremely under-rated for this reason.
I thought Northey was an excellent coach too.
 

Do the Dew

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Well, you completely avoided the question to champion your feels. Surely a coach that doesn't make the finals isn't as as successful as one who does?

Not at all. You said 'better', not 'successful'. Very different things in this context. A coach that makes finals is more successful than one that doesn't, however it doesn't mean that they're a better coach - again read THs quote


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