Chris Scott's legacy if he gags in another finals series?

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Wojcinski said:
Or maybe Geelong just played better than them? People have said the same thing all year about the Cats that whenever they win its because the other team 'rolled over'

Do you really think the Pies and Lions just rolled over in knockout finals? Give your own team some credit for winning the GF rather than trying to say whatever it is you're trying to say.
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I think the Pies have conceded that for whatever reason they just had no energy from the start.

I lined up loads of years of finals series right back to 2000 where Grand Finalists had played common opponents on the way to the GF, as happened with Cats and Tigers both playing Port and Lions at the same venues this year.

What I noticed is the form is normally very true from these matches, and they are normally a great indicator of the GF result.

This year prior to the GF we had the highly unusual situation of Tigers beating Port on their merits and Cats losing to Port and appearing after adjustments to be only around level with Port on form at best, maybe slightly ahead. This formline appeared to put the Tigers slightly ahead of the Cats if anything.

But v Lions both at the Gabba, the Tigers lost by 2.3 without Lynch with his position being obliterated by the Lions on the night. So you could maybe bring the Tigers that beat Port up to roughly level with the Lions, possibly even slightly ahead. But then Cats came out and beat the Lions by 5.10 at the same venue, and totally dominated them.

Given the normal pattern is for form to ring true from crossover matches like this, and now looking at it with the benefit of hindsight, it does appear the Brisbane v Geelong prelim was a big anomaly for whatever reason. I thought the Cats played really well in that, so maybe they just match up particularly well against that opponent, having beaten them well earlier in the season also. Or maybe the Lions were a bit off.

I racked my brain over this in the lead up to the GF trying to find a betting angle I could be confident with, but in the end I couldn’t be sure whether that Cats v Lions PF was true form or not. Now it looks obvious that the Lions that faced Richmond played at a much better level than the Lions who played the Cats. It did look a bit that way watching the respective matches as well, but at the time I was thinking two Cats opponents in succession not turning up at their best is looking too big a coincidence. I am now of the opinion this is true.

Cats and Tigers both played Port at near their(Port’s) best.

Tigers played Brisbane at near their best. Cats played Brisbane not near their best.

Tigers played Cats both near their best.
 
Their last 6 finals all get pass marks from me. Not perfect obviously but you can play well enough and still lose, s**t happens. People make out like it’s easy to throw a few magnets around and change the course of the game. It’s not. In Konrad Marshall’s book on Richmond’s 2017 season he is in the box for Anzac Day eve. From the first minute the coaches were aware we were in overusing it in wet conditions and were trying to get the message across to players. It took until the last quarter for the players to finally get it and we came from behind and won - but even then the demons were a couple down so we were pretty lucky. And that’s a fundamental of football - keep it simple in the wet.
 
harrythetiger said:
Their last 6 finals all get pass marks from me. Not perfect obviously but you can play well enough and still lose, sh*t happens. People make out like it’s easy to throw a few magnets around and change the course of the game. It’s not. In Konrad Marshall’s book on Richmond’s 2017 season he is in the box for Anzac Day eve. From the first minute the coaches were aware we were in overusing it in wet conditions and were trying to get the message across to players. It took until the last quarter for the players to finally get it and we came from behind and won - but even then the demons were a couple down so we were pretty lucky. And that’s a fundamental of football - keep it simple in the wet.
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This.

There isn't a magic rein that can be pulled that will just automatically win you the game. Like most people i wish Dangerfield went onto the ball in the third quarter when it got back to less than a kick. At the same time you've got a situation where he was forward of the ball for most of the last three weeks and Guthrie, Menegola, Selwood, Duncan, and Parfitt had got the job done and we'd been able to consistently make use of the fact that Danger was ahead of the ball. Scott comes out in his presser and says 'We had trust in the players there that they would be able to regain control and with Dangerfield forward we'd be able to create opportunities of our own.' There is nothing wrong with his logic. All but 5 of Richmond's points after the lead got to 22 in our favour were from turnovers. Who's to say if Danger is in the middle we aren't turning it over just as much.

People need to lose the expectation that you can ALWAYS win. Even our 07-11 team lost games, big games. It happens. In finals you are ALWAYS playing against good opposition so naturally it becomes harder. No one walks away from the Brisbane prelim loss or the Port prelim loss and says "well clearly the coach blew it." Why? Because both sides lost to a team who were too good on the night. Scott seems to be subject to different rules to the other coaches at times.
 

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PhatBoy said:
Scott seems to be subject to different rules to the other coaches at times.
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This is a good point, this thread got bumped 2 minutes after the final siren on Saturday night so unlike most other coaches according to the general public unless the Cats win the flag every year it's Scott's fault.
 
Wojcinski said:
This is a good point, this thread got bumped 2 minutes after the final siren on Saturday night so unlike most other coaches according to the general public unless the Cats win the flag every year it's Scott's fault.
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Exactly. And it seems that anyone who is pro-Scott and defends him, is referred to as being oblivious to any potential mistakes or errors he makes.

Scott makes mistakes as a coach. Players do - believe it or not, Dustin Martin does. Gary Ablett did. Lance Franklin did. Wayne Carey did. Why are coaches not given the same leeway? Not every decision they make or string they pull, will work as it is intended. It isn't a computer game. The players they are instructing are human and make mistakes themselves. Coaches are there to assess scenarios, work out the percentages and the chances of avoiding those mistakes and of capitalising on your own team's strengths and the weaknesses of the opposition. There are so many factors that effect whether that gets achieved or not, including a pretty major one - the opposition and how they execute their own attempts to do the same things.

I saw people slamming him for picking Gary Rohan on the weekend. Rohan was fantastic against Brisbane in a preliminary final, kicking 3 goals and playing a really strong game. Now what coach is going to say "well going back 5 and 6 seasons Rohan was poor in grand finals so despite his match-winning hand on Saturday we are going to sit him out of this one"?

Was he good on Saturday? Hell no. He stunk. But in the same way you wouldn't rag on a cricket coach for picking a guy who got 80 in a world cup semi-final to play in the final, where he gets a duck, why would you do it for Scott?
 
Hard to blame the GF on him. He had his team in a dominant position against a team that's now won 3 from 4 and perhaps should've been more than 22 points up. How many teams when they're getting dominated like that and not playing well on the big stage have the belief to turn the game around like that and then have a player like Martin to make the absolute most of every opportunity? If that's 2017 before Richmond have won a flag or 2019 after they messed up in 2018 I doubt Richmond can play with as much belief (2019 prelim we were nothing like as good a side and made more obvious mistakes). He's put together a really good team and got them playing excellent footy but in the key moments Richmond were just a bit better.
 
PhatBoy said:
Exactly. And it seems that anyone who is pro-Scott and defends him, is referred to as being oblivious to any potential mistakes or errors he makes.

Scott makes mistakes as a coach. Players do - believe it or not, Dustin Martin does. Gary Ablett did. Lance Franklin did. Wayne Carey did. Why are coaches not given the same leeway? Not every decision they make or string they pull, will work as it is intended. It isn't a computer game. The players they are instructing are human and make mistakes themselves. Coaches are there to assess scenarios, work out the percentages and the chances of avoiding those mistakes and of capitalising on your own team's strengths and the weaknesses of the opposition. There are so many factors that effect whether that gets achieved or not, including a pretty major one - the opposition and how they execute their own attempts to do the same things.

I saw people slamming him for picking Gary Rohan on the weekend. Rohan was fantastic against Brisbane in a preliminary final, kicking 3 goals and playing a really strong game. Now what coach is going to say "well going back 5 and 6 seasons Rohan was poor in grand finals so despite his match-winning hand on Saturday we are going to sit him out of this one"?

Was he good on Saturday? Hell no. He stunk. But in the same way you wouldn't rag on a cricket coach for picking a guy who got 80 in a world cup semi-final to play in the final, where he gets a duck, why would you do it for Scott?
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People also may forget that he worked this year for free to allow GFC to retain some other staff members who may otherwise have lost their jobs due to covid. His post game presser was quite good, no whinging, excuses just praise for the club for they way they dealt with this season, the AFL and for Richmond. I'm not a Scott fan to be honest but I can't help but respect the way he has gone about it this year. People will s**t on me for saying this but even though we lost, I think this year was still a success for GFC.
 
PhatBoy said:
I saw people slamming him for picking Gary Rohan on the weekend. Rohan was fantastic against Brisbane in a preliminary final, kicking 3 goals and playing a really strong game.
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I must have watched a different game- Rohan was trash in that prelim. Kicked 2 of his 3 goals with less than 2 minutes to go and until then was soundly beaten by a rookie. On balance you'd still pick him for the GF but don't rewrite history and tell us he had a really strong game the week before
 
Wojcinski said:
People also may forget that he worked this year for free to allow GFC to retain some other staff members who may otherwise have lost their jobs due to covid. His post game presser was quite good, no whinging, excuses just praise for the club for they way they dealt with this season, the AFL and for Richmond. I'm not a Scott fan to be honest but I can't help but respect the way he has gone about it this year. People will sh*t on me for saying this but even though we lost, I think this year was still a success for GFC.
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I could not see a single measure under which it wouldn't be considered a success. We proved a lot of things wrong. The notion that we can't win away from KP. The notion that we don't have the list or coach to get to a grand final. The idea that we rely on Dangerfield and Selwood for success. I think we had a great year and I'm really proud of it.
 
StillAtLarge said:
I must have watched a different game- Rohan was trash in that prelim. Kicked 2 of his 3 goals with less than 2 minutes to go and until then was soundly beaten by a rookie. On balance you'd still pick him for the GF but don't rewrite history and tell us he had a really strong game the week before
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Admittedly I was 12 beers deep by full time but I thought he was pretty good. His bomb from 50 on the run was pretty important from memory. At any rate, he was never going to be dropped.
 
Wojcinski said:
Or maybe Geelong just played better than them? People have said the same thing all year about the Cats that whenever they win its because the other team 'rolled over'

Do you really think the Pies and Lions just rolled over in knockout finals? Give your own team some credit for winning the GF rather than trying to say whatever it is you're trying to say.
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I'm not trying to be disparaging. It was evident that Collingwood was cooked. They didn't show up. The Cats obviously still had to win and they did easily. The Lions simply did not play to the level they did against the Tiges. They were ferocious against us. I didn't see that intensity against you guys. Again though, you played so well that you won that game comfortably.

All I'm saying is that Geelong's form may not have been as good as what it was portrayed in the media. Again, having said that, the Cats came out and put us to the sword.
 
PhatBoy said:
I could not see a single measure under which it wouldn't be considered a success. We proved a lot of things wrong. The notion that we can't win away from KP. The notion that we don't have the list or coach to get to a grand final. The idea that we rely on Dangerfield and Selwood for success. I think we had a great year and I'm really proud of it.
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A lot of people in those 'which 2 teams will drop out of the 8 this year' threads were tipping Geelong to drop out of the 8. Too old, no chance without Kelly, etc etc, and then no home games. Outstanding year, and now picking up Cameron, Higgins, and 3 first round draft picks! Pretty good tip for the flag next year tbh.
 

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nineteen eighty said:
I'm not trying to be disparaging. It was evident that Collingwood was cooked. They didn't show up. The Cats obviously still had to win and they did easily. The Lions simply did not play to the level they did against the Tiges. They were ferocious against us. I didn't see that intensity against you guys. Again though, you played so well that you won that game comfortably.

All I'm saying is that Geelong's form may not have been as good as what it was portrayed in the media. Again, having said that, the Cats came out and put us to the sword.
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Your last sentence is the key one. Yes we didn't play out the full four quarters at the level we wanted to. But the first half - and lets be honest, we were 'better' by enough to be more than 22 points in front, probably showed that our form was well and truly up to it. We just didn't know how to handle what Richmond was doing in the second half.

The other thing that was noticeable - and PLEASE don't take this as a way of saying 'Richmond just got lucky' because I absolutely don't intend it to be that way - was that in the second half every loose ball seemed to find a Richmond player. Ruck contests where there was no definitive winner, ball on the deck situations etc, the ball was continually spilling straight to a Richmond player. To me that says firstly that Richmond got their positioning spot on and their players' ability to read the ball was first class. But I think we were setting up for those situations as though the scoreboard was 0-0 and there was no momentum in the game. Sometimes when an opponent starts to get on top you need a safety first mentality so that you can say "ok they're winning everything at the moment so we need to be more vigilant about where the opposition players are, rather than focusing on the ball itself."
 
RichLeMonde said:
A lot of people in those 'which 2 teams will drop out of the 8 this year' threads were tipping Geelong to drop out of the 8. Too old, no chance without Kelly, etc etc, and then no home games. Outstanding year, and now picking up Cameron, Higgins, and 3 first round draft picks! Pretty good tip for the flag next year tbh.
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Absolutely. I really want another crack at you guys and I don't see a circumstance in which next year's premiers wouldn't have to get past the Tigers to achieve it to be honest. Don't see you disappearing any time soon.

I think the one thing that will change - and I'm not saying that opposition coaches don't already put time into stopping him - is that Martin is going to be treated like a prime Ablett. You have to accept that he's not going to 'play himself out of the game' as it were. He is not going to go missing or have a bad game in the same way that normal players will. You have to accept that you can't hope your own gun player matches him up the other end and neutralises his influence. It won't happen. So finding a player to go with him and just sacrifice his own game to try and at least curb SOME of his impact is the only way to try and shut down his power over big, close games. At the first bounce the other night I saw Selwood standing next to him and actually thought 'fantastic, Joel is going to run with him and try to shut him down.' I thought Joel tried his arse off the other night but he would still have been better served being at Martin's side the whole night.
 
Wojcinski said:
This is a good point, this thread got bumped 2 minutes after the final siren on Saturday night so unlike most other coaches according to the general public unless the Cats win the flag every year it's Scott's fault.
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Isn't it because ppl are commenting on the almost decade long TREND rather than singular one off games. If lions keep losing prelims next two years, Fagan and Co will absolutely face the same scrutiny
 
VernonSpots said:
Isn't it because ppl are commenting on the almost decade long TREND rather than singular one off games. If lions keep losing prelims next two years, Fagan and Co will absolutely face the same scrutiny
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Yes he would face the same scrutiny but I doubt the blanket explanation would be something as silly as 'he doesn't know how to coach preliminary finals' or whatever.

Scott gets belted for some of the things he says in pressers but one thing he's said a few times that I believe is spot on is that you have to judge these things on a case by case basis. Brisbane this year got beaten up by a bigger, stronger, older team.

If next year they face a team that's 20-2 in a prelim and they lose by a couple of kicks, and the year after that they face, hypothetically, the Suns and Matt Rowell has 35 touches and 5 goals, it would be very very harsh on Fagan to say "the guy can't coach and they need to move on." If you isolated each game you could come up with a different reason for each loss.

The only pattern our prelims have followed at all was the two against Sydney and Adelaide where we got belted in the first quarter. Aside from that we got off to a flyer against Richmond last year but ran out of steam (and yes the pattern was repeated a bit in the GF), against Hawthorn in 2013 we were level at half time, pulled away in the third, got pulled back in the last.

In between times we've lost an eliminator to Melbourne and a final to Freo in 2012(?) where we got blown away early. So there's four examples of that - it's been the most common pattern and we seem to have remedied that. There was a final against North where they just sort of gradually crept away on us before we flew home to lose by a kick, two finals against the Pies and Richmond where it was just a scrap and eventually the opponent got on top.

So there are a whole bunch of different ways in which we have let ourselves down in finals. It's too lazy to merely say "we always do this and this and that's why we lose." I would imagine an opposition side suffering the same continual results would be subject to an even-handed assessment on a case by case basis as well.
 
scotty in a nutshell.. rambling rose.. smells as sweet as the day began... not very manly but highly impressive to the various persona
who like to play hard.. working on it because knowing scotty he won[t like a flower as a mentor...
 
VernonSpots said:
Isn't it because ppl are commenting on the almost decade long TREND rather than singular one off games. If lions keep losing prelims next two years, Fagan and Co will absolutely face the same scrutiny
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Yes but you also have to recognise the job he and the list managers have done to keep Geelong at the level that they're competing for the flag most years. Just look at how they got each player;

Previous flag winners:
Ablett
Selwood
Taylor
Duncan
Hawkins

Trades:
Danger (1st and 2nd round pick)
Rohan (pick 60 odd)
Stanley (2nd round pick)
Tuohy (pick downgrade 17 to 21)
Henderson (1st round pick)

FA:
Dahlhaus

Draft:
Bews (#86)
Stewart (#40)
Guthrie (#23)
Kolodjashnij (#41)
Menegola (#66)
Miers (#57)
Parfitt (#26)
Simpson (rookie)
Blicavs (rookie)
O'Connor (rookie)
Henry (rookie)

I think it's a pretty good effort to stay as competative as we have without bottoming out.
 
PhatBoy said:
Perhaps but you are not going to leave out a player who was very good in a prelim
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I reckon my granddad could have jagged a couple against that Collingwood side. They were ******* cooked.

Stop defending Rohan. His record speaks for itself.
Didn't even deserve free gatorade for that.
 
Wojcinski said:
This is a good point, this thread got bumped 2 minutes after the final siren on Saturday night so unlike most other coaches according to the general public unless the Cats win the flag every year it's Scott's fault.
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He gets hailed as a genius endlessly for his home and away record. If he's responsible for those he is equally responsible for finals results.
 
Wojcinski said:
People also may forget that he worked this year for free to allow GFC to retain some other staff members who may otherwise have lost their jobs due to covid. His post game presser was quite good, no whinging, excuses just praise for the club for they way they dealt with this season, the AFL and for Richmond. I'm not a Scott fan to be honest but I can't help but respect the way he has gone about it this year. People will sh*t on me for saying this but even though we lost, I think this year was still a success for GFC.
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I'm a way bigger critic of Scott, and their recruiting philosophy, but I agree. Making the Grand final isn't a failed year. After being dismantled by Richmond in Round 17, and then losing to Port, we looked no hope at all to get to the Grand final.

What next year has in store is a different story, but it has to be a pass mark.
 
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