Society/Culture Christchurch Mosque mass shooting

[Cooldude]

I'm admonishing extremists.

Muslims and Conservatives/ Right wingers generally are OK.

The nutter that did this attack raved about the hospitality and generosity of Pakistani people while he was visiting them.

Then he murdered them while citing internet memes.

Religious extremists aren't outliers or anomalies though, they are essentials that come with the package. As long as there is religion, there will always be extremists. We can't pick out different religious fanatics and just pick/choose who we want, that never works.

There is no way to ever root out extremism from religion. In terms of the "far right", they will also keep existing as long as it's politically expedient for the politicians to exploit them

 

[Carringbush2010]

Patriotism is a form of cultism

Cultism?! Well that is what one would call a disturbing view.

You're conflating extremist dick heads who hijack patriotism to justify their radical views through violence as patriotism.

For one I'm not ashamed to barrack for Daniel Ricciardo in the F1's, not sure how you can correlate pride in my country as a cult form.

 

[Carringbush2010]

But that connection between Islam and extremism can exist with almost any ideology.

You'll have Christians murdering doctors at abortion clinics and advocating for the death penalty.

Last time I checked Jesus was pretty opposed to that kind of thing.

Islam has a propensity to draw extremism at its fringes, but so does Nationalism and Right wing and reactionary thought generally.

I'm down with banning Neo Nazis, but not with banning all right wingers generally.

I'm down with banning Salaffi Jihadism but not Muslims generally.

The enemy here is extremism. Not Muslims (or conservatives/ the political right).

Oh look I entirely agree, extremism is the problem not islam. However like your examples with other religions and nationalism is that extremism is used by a crazy few to push their agenda.

What I was trying to point out is that people who point out the dangers are immediately mistaken as labelling all muslim, catholics, catholics whatever in the same boat. Just like in that video Ben Affleck was not able to grasp the concept that Sam Harris was pointing out the dangers of a minority and not labelling all. Ben seems to think that Sam is labelling all of that religion in the bad basket.

That is just naive and frankly assuming something other than what he is being told.

 

[Cooldude]

Cultism?! Well that is what one would call a disturbing view.

You're conflating extremist dick heads who hijack patriotism to justify their radical views through violence as patriotism.

For one I'm not ashamed to barrack for Daniel Ricciardo in the F1's, not sure how you can correlate pride in my country as a cult form.

I think you are the one conflating nationalism with patriotism. Lemme spell out your version of what patriotism is for you

The characteristics of "patriotism" has many similarities with how a religion works, that's why both those things often result in the same dire outcomes

Patriotism in its extreme form is still patriotism, they still do those ****ed up things for the love of their country. We can't just selectively discard the extreme ends just because we aren't comfortable with it

Just like how some people call people who dare to have any word of criticism with how a country is being run as being "unpatriotic", "you hate your own country", patriotism has been used to prevent any rational criticism of governments. All that s**t with saluting the flag, stand up to sing the national anthem with pride and all the stuff, no different to an average church singing songs of worship to their god and bowing down to the cross. All just rituals

Hoping some sportsman from your country do well isn't "patriotic" in itself, it's just simply wishing someone from your circle does well (in this case from the same country).

 

[Carringbush2010]

I think you are the one conflating nationalism with patriotism. Lemme spell out your version of what patriotism is for you

The characteristics of "patriotism" has many similarities with how a religion works, that's why both those things often result in the same dire outcomes

Patriotism in its extreme form is still patriotism, they still do those ****** up things for the love of their country. We can't just selectively discard the extreme ends just because we aren't comfortable with it

Just like how some people call people who dare to have any word of criticism with how a country is being run as being "unpatriotic", "you hate your own country", patriotism has been used to prevent any rational criticism of governments. All that s**t with saluting the flag, stand up to sing the national anthem with pride and all the stuff, no different to an average church singing songs of worship to their god and bowing down to the cross. All just rituals

Hoping some sportsman from your country do well isn't "patriotic" in itself, it's just simply wishing someone from your circle does well (in this case from the same country).

Right I get it now, you're assuming what I'm thinking.

Babow!

I think barracking for someone from your country IS patriotic.

I think saluting the flag IS patriotic.

I think pride in your country IS patriotic. so you assumed wrong.

Painting patriotism with a bad brush and likening it to a cult shows you don't care much for identity or your country.

 

[sonicthelaconic]

The shooting prompted me to post about free speech and the rise of white supremacy and Islamic extremism on my debut blog post. Upon reflection, my request was provocative much in the same way media headlines are intentionally attention-grabbing. Realistically, the aim should be for consumers to engage less and choose better options responsibly. However, this is as unrealistic as expecting people to stop listening to the news is. Upon reflection, I'm not comfortable with blaming the increased violence on vitriolic, sensationalistic political commentary. Nevertheless, we have 24 million people in Australia. Why in the * have Pauline Hanson on national television week in, week out, if an intelligent discussion is the goal?

https://www.sonicthelaconic.com/media-muslims-white-supremacy/

 

[Cooldude]

Right I get it now, you're assuming what I'm thinking.

Babow!

I think barracking for someone from your country IS patriotic.

I think saluting the flag IS patriotic.

I think pride in your country IS patriotic. so you assumed wrong.

Painting patriotism with a bad brush and likening it to a cult shows you don't care much for identity or your country.

No, I know exactly what you're talking about

That last line of yours is exactly why I call it akin to cultism, thanks for proving my point. "If you don't fall in line and act a certain way, then you don't care about this country", classic nationalism rationale right there. Many dictators have used the same reasoning to guilt trip many people to do ****ed up s**t

I care about this country, thank you very much, that is why I call out bullshit borderline fanaticism thinking like yours. Many "patriotis" are just selfish assholes who conflate their own interest with the country's interest

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Islam has or nearly has taken over Catholicism as the biggest religion in the world. It’s getting bigger all of the time. While other religions are in decline, Islam is growing at an unprecedented scale.

Converts or breeding?

 

[Carringbush2010]

No, I know exactly what you're talking about

That last line of yours is exactly why I call it akin to cultism, thanks for proving my point. "If you don't fall in line and act a certain way, then you don't care about this country", classic nationalism rationale right there. Many dictators have used the same reasoning to guilt trip many people to do ****** up s**t

I care about this country, thank you very much, that is why I call out bullshit borderline fanaticism thinking like yours. Many "patriotis" are just selfish assholes who conflate their own interest with the country's interest

Proving your point? More like your opinion, I have no time for those who view patriotism as a bad thing and akin to a cult.

A cult it is not, you're painting anyone as patriotic as a bad person who is selfish and do f***** up s**t - yes they exist like this w***er who mowed down innocent people because of his own f***** up beliefs but they're very much a minuscule minority . If you conflate such acts with patriotism then you are sorely mistaken and that is very offensive.

If you liken patriotism as a cult then sorry you're not patriotic.

There is nothing wrong with patriotism mate and you're not a mind reader.

 

[Lebbo73]

Converts or breeding?

Don’t know. I saw it somewhere several years ago.

 

[Cooldude]

Proving your point? More like your opinion, I have no time for those who view patriotism as a bad thing and akin to a cult.

A cult it is not, you're painting anyone as patriotic as a bad person who is selfish and do f***** up s**t - yes they exist like this w***er who mowed down innocent people because of his own f***** up beliefs but they're very much a minuscule minority . If you conflate such acts with patriotism then you are sorely mistaken and that is very offensive.

If you liken patriotism as a cult then sorry you're not patriotic.

There is nothing wrong with patriotism mate and you're not a mind reader.

What an intellectual you are

China is currently using patriotism as a means to get people to fall in line with communism ideals, to be a patriot is to fall in line with the party. To be a patriot is to never forget what the Japanese did to them in WWII, or what the British did to them in the opium war. Look at all kinds of ****ed up s**t that happens in China

Look at America, all that patriotism. Be a patriotic murican so if you dare criticise a sitting president who is at war then it's akin to treason (Iraq War and Bush), seeing them bomb Iran recently and everyone just goes "Murica * yeah". Paddling racist s**t because their image of America is one of a specific race and color, because that's what it means to be a "patriotic hot blooded murcian".

Throughout history, many crazy things have happened precisely because of simple minded people like you who thump your chest talking about how much you love your country. People like you are easy to manipulate. Patriotism is the last refuge for scoundrels indeed, it is so easy to control an entire country's population using "patriotism", and it's dangerous as heck

 

[Carringbush2010]

What an intellectual you are

China is currently using patriotism as a means to get people to fall in line with communism ideals, to be a patriot is to fall in line with the party. To be a patriot is to never forget what the Japanese did to them in WWII, or what the British did to them in the opium war. Look at all kinds of ****** up s**t that happens in China

Look at America, all that patriotism. Be a patriotic murican so if you dare criticise a sitting president who is at war then it's akin to treason (Iraq War and Bush), seeing them bomb Iran recently and everyone just goes "Murica **** yeah". Paddling racist s**t because their image of America is one of a specific race and color, because that's what it means to be a "patriotic hot blooded murcian".

Throughout history, many crazy things have happened precisely because of simple minded people like you who thump your chest talking about how much you love your country. People like you are easy to manipulate. Patriotism is the last refuge for scoundrels indeed, it is so easy to control an entire country's population using "patriotism", and it's dangerous as heck

I think you're mistaking national pride with something completely radical and extreme. I'm patriotic but I don't find myself doing physical harm to others because they're not Australian or supporting w***ers shooting innocent people in a mosque.

I think you have a very skewed view on what patriotism means, it's pride in your nation and to correlate it with doing the wrong things "in the name of" is just false.

 

[Cooldude]

I think you're mistaking national pride with something completely radical and extreme. I'm patriotic but I don't find myself doing physical harm to others because they're not Australian or supporting w***ers shooting innocent people in a mosque.

I think you have a very skewed view on what patriotism means, it's pride in your nation and to correlate it with doing the wrong things "in the name of" is just false.

I think you have a very naive view of what patriotism is, the same line of thinking you have can easily lead to the extreme and the radical, it just takes a dickhead to get to the top of the political arena. You don't have an urge to do those things only because Australia is a peaceful moderate country, put your same line of thinking in a place like China or Turkey and we've got problems

 

[Carringbush2010]

I think you have a very naive view of what patriotism is, the same line of thinking you have can easily lead to the extreme and the radical, it just takes a dickhead to get to the top of the political arena. You don't have an urge to do those things only because Australia is a peaceful moderate country, put your same line of thinking in a place like China or Turkey and we've got problems

Again, you're confusing patriotism with bad will - not the truth. You're pooling everyone in China and Turkey with the same mindset.

Epiphany, we don't all think the same way there are different opinions and thoughts just like you and I are now.

Just digest that for a minute and epiphany will come to you.

 

[Cooldude]

Again, you're confusing patriotism with bad will - not the truth. You're pooling everyone in China and Turkey with the same mindset.

Epiphany, we don't all think the same way there are different opinions and thoughts just like you and I are now.

Just digest that for a minute and epiphany will come to you.

The very essence of patriotism is to pull everyone in with the same mindset based on "love and cause for country", I can't believe you don't realise that. The very nature of patriotism is to eliminate individualism for the country

Epiphany, time to go out and see the world a little bit more to find out how much patriotism has been used to manipulate a populace. Stop being a naive little boy who thinks everything is roses and flowers

 

[Carringbush2010]

The very essence of patriotism is to pull everyone in with the same mindset based on "love and cause for country", I can't believe you don't realise that. The very nature of patriotism is to eliminate individualism for the country

Epiphany, time to go out and see the world a little bit more to find out how much patriotism has been used to manipulate a populace. Stop being a naive little boy who thinks everything is roses and flowers

Well, I totally disagree. The essence of patriotism is pride in your nation and the very essence of individualism.

To paint patriotism as wrong is very very disturbing to the point of I'm actually concerned of your way of thinking.

Again, you're confusing patriotism with something wrong. I'll challenge you're thinking and know I won't be alone.

 

[skilts]

Murdoch the elder, in concert with the journalist/historian/odious pustule C.E.W. Bean, conducted an anti-Semitic campaign of vilification of General Monash during WWI. They were attempting to prevent Monash from being put in sole charge of Australia's troops, because he was of Prussian Jewish stock. P.M. Billy Hughes resisted their many overtures to him and their campaign conducted in newspapers and in letters to other politicians and appointed Monash.

 

[Cooldude]

Well, I totally disagree. The essence of patriotism is pride in your nation and the very essence of individualism.

To paint patriotism as wrong is very very disturbing to the point of I'm actually concerned of your way of thinking.

Again, you're confusing patriotism with something wrong. I'll challenge you're thinking and know I won't be alone.

Your definition of patriotism is exactly like the definition of a brainwashed nationalist from a totalitarian country like China. Also, patriotism is the very definition of collectivism, to call it individualism is very funny

I am far more concerned about you actually, you don't seem to be well versed in your history. Go see find out some of the most horrid things committed by those who are considered "patriots" in their country, and also find out what happens to those individuals who don't fall in line and are considered "unpatriotic"

The one who is confused here is you, you really need to go out and see the world more and find out what some people do in the name of patriotism instead of shutting yourself off to your narrow fairy tale definition from the peaceful state of Australia

 

[fleabitten]

Remember, moderate Muslims are the main victims of Islamic terrorism.

I don't recall you being consistent with that logic when you talk about men. Regular men are the main victims of violent men.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Now Turkey is a dangerous place that I wouldn’t visit.

I’m more worried about Hungary and India with its vigilantism. Scary RWNJs right there

 

[Frank Bunn]

I don't recall you being consistent with that logic when you talk about men. Regular men are the main victims of violent men.

This thread is one of the finest collections of hypocrisy on SRP.

eg

When a Muslim terrorist murders dozens of people the reaction of the left is to say we should support moderate Muslims from the resulting backlash.

When a right wing extremist murders dozens of people the reaction of the left is to blame all right wingers.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Your definition of patriotism is exactly like the definition of a brainwashed nationalist from a totalitarian country like China. Also, patriotism is the very definition of collectivism, to call it individualism is very funny

I am far more concerned about you actually, you don't seem to be well versed in your history. Go see find out some of the most horrid things committed by those who are considered "patriots" in their country, and also find out what happens to those individuals who don't fall in line and are considered "unpatriotic"

The one who is confused here is you, you really need to go out and see the world more and find out what some people do in the name of patriotism instead of shutting yourself off to your narrow fairy tale definition from the peaceful state of Australia

Agree to disagree,

To regard patriotism with such disdain is very offensive.

I hope you'll have an epiphany and realize individuals having pride in their nation is not a bad thing.

We'll leave it there mate, don't bother replying as we won't come to an agreement.

 

[Malifice]

When a right wing extremist murders dozens of people the reaction of the left is to blame all right wingers.

No it hasn't been, and I've repeatedly and consistently said otherwise.

The argument has been that the narrative advanced by the Far Right (the 'West' is at war with Islam, they're foreign barbarians, raping and murdering, incompatible with 'our' culture, who should return to 'their' lands, it's a 'clash of the cultures' etc) contributes to extremism.

Its the identical narrative advanced by IS and the Salaffis.

It's painting a foreign group as an existential threat to our very way of life.

If you want to sell that total load of bullshit, dont act surprised when young, angry, socially isolated men buy into it and murder a lot of people.

 

[sonicthelaconic]

If my platform grows, I'm going to write about "The Pew Problem." That is to say, the Pew Research (solid data) used to justify anti-Muslim immigration. The two chief problems with this are that Sharia Law means different things to different Muslims (as per Biblical Law and American Christians). Also, millions of Muslims aren't out on the streets across the world protesting to turn their countries into Islamic theocracies. Most Muslim countries aren't like Saudi Arabia or Iran, but the claim is that the likes of Australia will become like the worst-case scenario culture if we're "overrun" with Muslims. Except, Western Muslims generally are far more moderate. Acculturation works. Few deny there are problems with immigration and refugees, but I believe they are exaggerated and he scaremongering leads to violence.

 

[Frank Bunn]

No it hasn't been, and I've repeatedly and consistently said otherwise.

The argument has been that the narrative advanced by the Far Right (the 'West' is at war with Islam, they're foreign barbarians, raping and murdering, incompatible with 'our' culture, who should return to 'their' lands, it's a 'clash of the cultures' etc) contributes to extremism.

Its the identical narrative advanced by IS and the Salaffis.

It's painting a foreign group as an existential threat to our very way of life.

If you want to sell that total load of bullshit, dont act surprised when young, angry, socially isolated men buy into it and murder a lot of people.

OK.

As advised previously I do not wish to engage with you while you have moderator powers. Apparently I can't put you on ignore.