Society/Culture Christchurch Mosque mass shooting

LeverPuller

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One of the biggest things I think needs to be looked at is how we deal with the internet.

These nutbags are literally posting obvious shit for all to see and it’s either being ignored or is in a corner of the internet that people simply don’t know about.
It’s really not that hard to find.

Take this Facebook page with 500,000 followers named ‘Australia’s Page’.


Now theoretically that page is just cracking gags and asking political questions. Jump in the comments section of a post like that and, well...you find them. And you find their pages.

We’ve got a problem where “information” has never been more available and people have never been more connected. And it’s starting to warp the collective world view as manipulators work on it.

I compare it to the fear of rats during the Black Death. One person told another and suddenly everyone is scared, when it was really the fleas.

We get one person telling another something and the fear spreads. Whether it’s Islam, antivaxxers, flat earthers or Illuminati types, we have never seen more of it.

But unless we fundamentally change the purpose and function of the internet we can’t fix it.
 

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It’s really not that hard to find.

Take this Facebook page with 500,000 followers named ‘Australia’s Page’.


Now theoretically that page is just cracking gags and asking political questions. Jump in the comments section of a post like that and, well...you find them. And you find their pages.

We’ve got a problem where “information” has never been more available and people have never been more connected. And it’s starting to warp the collective world view as manipulators work on it.

I compare it to the fear of rats during the Black Death. One person told another and suddenly everyone is scared, when it was really the fleas.

We get one person telling another something and the fear spreads. Whether it’s Islam, antivaxxers, flat earthers or Illuminati types, we have never seen more of it.

But unless we fundamentally change the purpose and function of the internet we can’t fix it.
I’m talking more about nutbags like this who talk about white supremacy and show all the signs on sites like 4Chan that they are a dangerous deluded individual who needs to be monitored.

I’m not saying the Facebook comments from anti-vaxxers etc aren’t dangerous. But they’re just a different kettle of fish altogether.

This Aussie bloke today and numerous others have been posting lonely hate filled shit for ages leading up to their attacks and it either blends in fine on cesspool websites or their social media accounts simply don’t garner enough attention for a family member or friend to raise an alarm.
 
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Is it just me or is this shooting the nail in the coffin to the whole hide our hateful bullshit behind "free speech" thing? Look at what happens when you let people get away with this garbage. There's a big difference between a Sam Harris and a Donald Trump or Pauline Hanson or nutter like this shooter.
 

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Makes you wonder if he had planned this for yesterday, but Facebook being down caused him to delay it a day

Either way it's f'ed up
No it doesn't look like it. This seems very calculated because just after noon on Friday is the time that Mosques are filled with Muslims for the Friday prayer. From what I heard, this attack was done when they gathered for the Friday prayer so I don't think he delayed it from his calculated date and time.

Either way, he is an idiot.
 
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Maybe I got confused. What 'highly selective immigration program based on maximizing social cohesion' were you referring to here:

The country in which you live has run a highly selective immigration program based on maximising social cohesion.
You were obviously talking about our Humanitarian program.

Where [did I advocate in support of Ethnic nationalism]?
Here:

A home state of your own, where you get to make laws according to your culture and have defined borders that other powers will (mostly) respect. Sounds pretty sweet!
And here:

Are you genuinely arguing for the creation of ethnically nationalist nation States as a mechanism for peace?
Yes, because that is what happened as the result of both world wars and why there has been subsequent peace. Europe in 1900 was primarily comprised of multi ethnic empires. By 2000 almost every single ethnicity of Europe had their own nation state.

Peoples who had never before had a nation, like Estonians, suddenly had their very own country.
You're directly and expressly arguing for the creation of ethnically nationalist nation States. It's unambiguous!

When I place that in context for your beliefs that human races are 'biologically discrete' from each other, that they share traits that are better (or worse) that each other, that culture (at least in part) directly stems from biological race, and that 'selective migration from compatible cultures' is desirable, and your weird obsession with WW2 Germany, it literally tells me all I need to know.

Well, that and the fact your avatar is a meme frequently used on boards frequented by alt right trolls as well. Thats also a bit of a give-away.

Maybe your next incarnation will be a bit more discreet.
 

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Maybe I got confused. What 'highly selective immigration program based on maximizing social cohesion' were you referring to here:



You were obviously talking about our Humanitarian program.



Here:



And here:



You're directly and expressly arguing for the creation of ethnically nationalist nation States.

When I place that in context for your beliefs that human races are 'biologically discrete' from each other, that they share traits that are better (or worse) that each other, that culture (at least in part) directly stems from biological race, and that 'selective migration from compatible cultures' is desirable, and your weird obsession with WW2 Germany, it literally tells me all I need to know.

Well, that and the fact your avatar is a meme frequently used on boards frequented by alt right trolls as well. Thats a bit of a give-away.
Yes, Armenians having their own state is a good thing - or do you think they were better off in the Ottoman Empire?
 

LeverPuller

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I’m talking more about nutbags like this who talk about white supremacy and show all the signs on sites like 4Chan that they are a dangerous deluded individual who needs to be monitored.

I’m not saying the Facebook comments from anti-vaxxers etc aren’t dangerous. But they’re just a different kettle of fish altogether.

This Aussie bloke today and numerous others have been posting lonely hate filled shit for ages leading up to their attacks and it either blends in fine on cesspool websites or their social media accounts simply don’t garner enough attention for a family member or friend to raise an alarm.
But that’s the thing. It isn’t hard to find, and it’s the little things in language like that.

There’s a great theory about terrorism known as the ‘Stairway to Terror’. It’s built around psychological theory. What it explains is the pathway from grievances to committing acts of terror.

But the point is it’s a process. It’s not flicking a light switch.

And the internet has made it far easier for people to find their way up the process, whether it’s this guy, Breivik or ISIS. The process is the same.
 
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You are literally posting "told you so's" as though no one else could see this is the obvious counter affect of islamic terrorism.
There you go again, going all Frasier Anning on us, and blaming Muslims for getting themselves shot.

Should a Muslim nutjob kill 50 people next week in 'revenge' does he get a free pass on account of it 'only being a counter effect to the actions and words of the political right wing'?

Seriously mate. This clown did this to inspire revenge attacks from Islamists. It says so in his manifesto.

Right wing terrorism isnt 'the Muslims' fault. RWNJ's were around long before the Muslims (just ask Blacks and Jews) and they'll be here long after.
 
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There you go again, going all Frasier Anning on us, and blaming Muslims for getting themselves shot.

Should a Muslim nutjob kill 50 people next week in 'revenge' does he get a free pass on account of it 'only being a counter effect to the actions and words of the political right wing'?

Seriously mate. This clown did this to inspire revenge attacks from Islamists. It says so in his manifesto.

Right wing terrorism isnt 'the Muslims' fault. RWNJ's were around long before the Muslims (just ask Blacks and Jews) and they'll be here long after.
Agreed. Bit rich of anyone to whitewash this as a revenge attack. They want to open up that can of worms? How about the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people killed in the Middle East by Western countries?
 

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Here's a question, Malifice. Should the people of Xinjiang have their own state, East Turkestan?
I support self determination of any group of people to choose their method of governance via the social contract, as long as such a method does not create a tyranny (including a tyranny of the majority over a minority).

The people of Japan and Korea practice a form of ethnic nationalism. For all the good its done them. Both nations largely kicked off two of the largest wars in the Asia-Pacific in the last century, including the only one that went nuclear (and the other it was considered pretty closely as well, and there is still time for it to go nuclear).

That doent mean I support ethnic nationalism of course. It just means I support self determination where such collective self determination does not lead to an oppressive anti liberal/ non egalitarian or totalitarian regime.
 

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I support self determination of any group of people to choose their method of governance via the social contract, as long as such a method does not create a tyranny (including a tyranny of the majority over a minority).

The people of Japan and Korea practice a form of ethnic nationalism. For all the good its done them. Both nations largely kicked off two of the largest wars in the Asia-Pacific in the last century, including the only one that went nuclear (and the other it was considered pretty closely as well, and there is still time for it to go nuclear).

That doent mean I support ethnic nationalism of course. It just means I support self determination where such collective self determination does not lead to an oppressive anti liberal/ non egalitarian or totalitarian regime.
So you agree with me, ethnic nationalism is fine in some instances where it leads to greater peace. Where a group of peoples can make laws according to their custom without fear of tyranny from a larger ethnic majority. Sound good?

Is ethnic nationalism the best mode for Australia? No. Colonised countries can never convincingly argue in favour of ethnic nationalism.

By the same token, should Australia be unselective / take an open borders approach in its immigration policy? No.

What is the balance?
 

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There you go again, going all Frasier Anning on us, and blaming Muslims for getting themselves shot.
You fool I said Islamic terrorists. Specifically didnt say ordinary muslims. I said mass murders by Islamic terrorists invites mass murder by its counterpoint crazies. You arent even trying.
 
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So you agree with me, ethnic nationalism is fine in some instances where it leads to greater peace.
No, I don't agree with you, and in fact I reject your premise that 'ethnic nationalism leads to greater peace.' It doesn't. It leads to persecution of ethnic minorities, xenophobia and war.

You dont remove ethnic conflicts by embracing ethnic nationalism.

It's as stupid as saying 'Sexism exists and it creates bad outcomes for women, so... we might as well just get rid of all the women'.

I say we should instead go after the sexists.

See how it works yet?
 

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Far from a Trump fan, but as a foreign head of state there's not a whole lot more he can realistically do.


One of these things is not like the other...

At the very least, you should be able to condemn the actions of terrorists. Its even more important that Trump vocalises this given his somewhat poor past efforts in this area ("good people on both sides").

He's already moved onto tweeting about Russian collusion and how great he is.
 
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I said mass murders by Islamic terrorists invites mass murder by its counterpoint crazies.
So you admit that RWNJ's are the counterpoint to Islamic fundamentalists? That both ideologies (Islam and the political Right) are dangerous and produce terrorists?

Doesn't that make your ideology (you're reasonably far right wing) kind of analogous to... and as dangerous as... fundamental Islam?

You know; both dogmas kind of embrace sexism, homophobia, the notions of 'a clash of the cultures', a perception the other side is barbaric, and a general dislike of Jews and so forth?

And maybe doesn't that explain (not justify mind you, but explain) why the Islamic fundies kill Westerners? You can understand why RWNJ's target Muslims, can you also see why the Islamic nutters target the West?
 

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No, I don't agree with you, and in fact I reject your premise that 'ethnic nationalism leads to greater peace.' It doesn't. It leads to persecution of ethnic minorities, xenophobia and war.

You dont remove ethnic conflicts by embracing ethnic nationalism.

It's as stupid as saying 'Sexism exists and it creates bad outcomes for women, so... we might as well just get rid of all the women'.

I say we should instead go after the sexists.

See how it works yet?
Sexism exists and creates bad outcomes for women, so we should give them women-only spaces where they can feel safe to express themselves without judgement, leering or harassment.

Yes, I see how it works.
 

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The entire go-pro footage that the killer posted on facebook can be found on youtube (still there right now).

It's horrific of course.

But, unlike many others who feel it should be censored from the internet, I actually think they should show it, because it rams home the horror of it, forcing people to truly hate violence.

Otherwise, people are sanitized. "gunman kills 40" no images/video, people don't realize and fob it off, just news of the day, aren't mentally scarred by the horror enough to spur on greater discussion of anti-violence and tolerance by all.
 

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Doesn't that make your ideology (you're reasonably far right wing) kind of analogous to... and as dangerous as... fundamental Islam?
Me "far right" and as dangerous as fundamental Islam? A cleanskin athiest family man with a job, a mortage and a polonesian wife. There you go again. But yes actual RWNJs (you clearly have no idea what they are) are just as whacked as the fundi's.
 
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Sexism exists and creates bad outcomes for women, so we should combat sexism so women can feel safe to express themselves without judgement, leering or harassment.
Fixed that for you. You dont identify something thats shit, and then embrace it. You work towards making it better.

Presume for a second we could actually form ethnically nationalist States without somehow resorting to genocide.

How does even that remove the problem? How long before 'they' become a threat to 'us' and the genocide happens anyway?
 
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Me "far right" and as dangerous as fundamental Islam?
I think the far right (Nazism, Fascism and similar) are far more dangerous than fundamental Islam. As bad as ISIS were (and are) the Nazis were worse.

I'm just saying they're both expressions of far right/ conservative views. With identical results when put into practice.

And It was more of a question about your political views. You've previously expressed support (fervent support even) for a number of right wing to far right wing political positions, and have repeatedly slagged off 'the left'.

I just presumed this meant you were [Right to far right]. Somewhere in the Pauline Hanson/ Fraser Anning spectrum.
 
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I thought men were the fault?
How about it’s not that.
I hate to break it to you, but the shooter was a bloke.

Just like they almost always are when this shit happens in like 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999 percent of cases.

If women were going postal and murdering people all the time in those sorts of numbers (and 99.9999999999999999999999999 percent of mass killers were women), you'd be the first to argue they should never have access to guns (at a minimum).
 
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