Society/Culture Christchurch Mosque mass shooting

[Balls In]

Rate YES, composition NO on a particular race or religion unless backed by factual and relevant evidence on why it is not acceptable.

I agree wholeheartedly. Was responding to an absurdity that centre right politicians have blood on their hands.

 

[ShanDog]

If someone else is responsible then that absolves me.
Point scoring, mischaracterising political opposition, assigning blame is the thin edge of the wedge.
We are being conditioned to solve our problems in ways that don't solve our problems.

I'm glad you think big because sometimes it's the big thinkers who can achieve big things. But I wouldn't call that a necessary individual virtue. In this instance, you might want to take the weight of the world on your shoulders and that's great, but expecting everyone else to have that same principle isn't a virtue at all - it's a vice. You can contribute or maybe even control your sphere of influence. You might be able to reach out beyond that. But you can't control everything, so nor should you bear the responsibility for it either.

 

[Maggie5]

The shooter in his manifesto: "I bet I can cause mass division and finger pointing".

Bigfooty and social media more broadly have ensured that he has won. It's one sad point scoring exercise.

Time to think about which side you're on. Not left or right, but are you on the side of this human cess pit of a shooter and wish to cast generalising blame... or are you on the side who reject his message and want to unite people, saving your condemnation for violent extremists only.

Bit hard to stay silent when you read some of the comments in this thread. e.g.

I find it very odd that attacks against Muslims get this much attention where church attacks happen and are glossed over.

Because for me, can't recall any instance where senseless mass killings haven't been acknowledged by the majority of posters on BF. Words matter whether it is by an anonymous poster on a forum, people in one's social circle and more importantly by leaders/politicians.

I would be very surprised if you didn't acknowledge that there have been are some over the top posters from both our 'sides' of politics that we haven't spoken up about.

Sadly my way of dealing with it occasionally is to not venture into some threads and thus avoid confrontation or personal attacks.

 

[A Cut Above]

Conservative parties had made racism a key part of the getting elected strategy. The it's not safe to go out in Melbourne to restaurant was an example of this,.

Conservative parties, ;leaders and supporters, have worked past this and accepted it.

Political parties, and before them monarchs, warlords and other would-be leaders have deliberately exploited the insecurities of their populations since the dawn of time, often adding a racial component for extra punch. If it hadn't proven so effective they'd stop using it.

Let's not pretend this only happens on one side of politics either. Lefties exploit other fears just as effectively.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Equally the left has been extremely soft on radical islam for 20 years

How so?

 

[chelseacarlton]

Wait a second, “we’re all to blame” now are we?
If you wanted to know what the bottom of the barrel ever looked like, there it is!!

 

[Catters 070911]

Wait, you actually think the left supports theocratic ideologies. Hahahahaha oh man, you reactionaries are a trip.

Yeah, I forgot that many Lefties are athiests, who consider themselves their own god, obvious by the complete and utter faith that you are never wrong.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Yeah, I forgot that many Lefties are athiests, who consider themselves their own god, obvious by the complete and utter faith that you are never wrong.

This is seriously beyond drivel

 

[madmug]

Political parties, and before them monarchs, warlords and other would-be leaders have deliberately exploited the insecurities of their populations since the dawn of time, often adding a racial component for extra punch. If it hadn't proven so effective they'd stop using it.

Let's not pretend this only happens on one side of politics either. Lefties exploit other fears just as effectively.

Creating a fear that Medicare may be cut by the Libs, is hardly in the ball park of using latent racist attitudes that have been groomed in the insecure, vulnerable & exploited to that end.

The thing is the LNP has continued with the current Immigration levels as it gives an economic boost to our 'falling per head' GDP. ie keeping us out of a potential negative economy until the election. Talk about cynical.

Hence the real reason the economy is 'growing' at its current rate is the opposite to what the HRW want to hear. The stress on our fragile environment is enough to at least query immigration numbers. But they don't.

 

[Jibroni]

The only positive to come out of this tragedy is that NZ have a truly humanitarian and class act of a Prime Minister. Would love to have her run this Country.

 

[Catters 070911]

No-one is saying that you do speak for him.

What people are saying is the spreading of a 'West vs Islam' clash of the cultures narrative, and constant parroting of 'Muslims are incomparable with our way of life' bullshit that you hear all the time (from blokes like Fraser Anning, Hanson, Gert Wilders and so forth), paints Muslims as being an existential threat.

A threat to our very existence.

You've heard it yourself hundreds of times. They're not compatible with the West, they're barbaric, they're raping and plundering their way through Europe, they're a fifth column seeking to create an European caliphate, they're all on welfare, they're all terrorists, or terrorism supporters, and so on and so on.

If you're going to go around spreading that narrative, dont be shocked when some angry nutter decides those Muslims are just too dangerous to be left alone, and decides to kill a bunch of them.

Look at IS. They spread the exact same narrative (just in reverse).

Ask yourself why they spread that narrative?

The answer is obvious. Because when you paint some 'other' as this nebulous existential threat to your family, way of life and very existence, some people believe it, and then take up arms and decide to do something about the threat.



No-one is condemning ALL Right wingers for this event.

You keep saying this is happening, but its not. You're jumping at shadows.

What we're condemning is the anti-Islam narrative that many on the Right to Far Right pander that creates a fertile ground for this sort of s**t to happen.

I condemn the identical anti-West narrative pandered by ISIS that creates fertile ground for Islamist terror attacks to happen also, and on the same grounds.

First of all, I am not spreading any narrative. I vote Liberal most of the time (not all the time though), and I believe that a healthy economy is more important than most things, and I also believe that Australia has a right to decide who can and who can't enter our country, and that if someone enters by illegal means, then we have no obligation to keep them (as opposed to many Left wingers being happy to have completely open borders, and let anyone who rocks up to our shores have the red carpet rolled out for them without question. I have yet to hear one Leftie, ONE, who admits that there needs to be certain controls on our borders, and who we let in). But I don't think ALL Muslims are evil, or that all right-wingers are good (or that all Left wingers are bad). But the generalisations that go on here needs to stop.

I embrace many views of the right, but reject some others. If I was American, I would probably vote Democrat rather than Republican, because I thought Obamacare was a good idea, and I am anti-gun. I also applaud the ALP for bringing in Medicare and some of the other things they have done, but I mostly lean right.

Also, why is it that most Lefties don't seem to speak out when a Muslim commits a terrorist attack, but cry "racist" instead (when Islam is not a race)? Do you accept that some terrorists just happen to be Muslim as well? If so, then why is it wrong to question who comes into this country, and what they believe?

There are bad apples in every basket, and a majority of good ones too, and the bad ones spoil it for every else. We need to get rid of the brushes that paint everyone in a particular group for the actions of a few, and you, as a moderator, have a responsibility to police such things, no matter which side (even the one you lean on) does it.

 

[Malifice]

If you can pinpoint the “race” a person belongs to using their genes, then it isn’t a social construct is it?

You cant pinpoint it though can you? You can select an arbitrary number of genetic markers (as many or as few as you want) and you'll find those markers present in every 'race' to varying frequencies.

Obviously people who have lived in close proximity to each other for generations will share heritable traits. But not all 'white people' or 'African people' (or where ever you want to draw some arbitrary line between different 'races') share those traits, nor do they share them in the same combination, and those same combinations can also often be found outside those races.

And doesnt the fact that we would have to select different traits to measure for different races kid of scream 'confirmation bias' to you?

If you want to prove to me the existence of biological race, I would need to see clear lines of demarcation between these races (like what we find between two different species or even sub species). Such lines of demarcation do not exist in science, and all modern (and historical) lines of racial demarcation have been generally down to (inconsistently applied) physcial appearance such as skin color, geographical closeness with others who resemble each other (expressed in very broad and general terms), and shared culture.

 

[quotemokc]

The only positive to come out of this tragedy is that NZ have a truly humanitarian and class act of a Prime Minister. Would love to have her run this Country.

She is in the same category as Justin Trudeau.

And I mean that in a truly negative way.

 

[its free real estate]

You cant pinpoint it though can you? You can select an arbitrary number of genetic markers (as many or as few as you want) and you'll find those markers present in every 'race' to varying frequencies.

Obviously people who have lived in close proximity to each other for generations will share heritable traits. But not all 'white people' or 'African people' (or where ever you want to draw some arbitrary line between different 'races') share those traits, nor do they share them in the same combination, and those same combinations can also often be found outside those races.

And doesnt the fact that we would have to select different traits to measure for different races kid of scream 'confirmation bias' to you?

If you want to prove to me the existence of biological race, I would need to see clear lines of demarcation between these races (like what we find between two different species or even sub species). Such lines of demarcation do not exist in science, and all modern (and historical) lines of racial demarcation have been generally down to (inconsistently applied) physcial appearance such as skin color, geographical closeness with others who resemble each other (expressed in very broad and general terms), and shared culture.

It is possible to determine what percentage of Neanderthal DNA you have in you (which no population from sub Saharan Africa has), so the idea that there are no markers is a bit of a furphy.

As for clear lines of demarcation, have you ever heard of the paradox of the heap?

 

[Catters 070911]

Apparently he had a girlfriend, and quite an attractive one judging by the photo floating around.

One question, BiggyBoy, who do you hate more- the gunman who committed this massacre, or Geelong coach, Chris Scott?

 

[Malifice]

I have yet to hear one Leftie, ONE, who admits that there needs to be certain controls on our borders, and who we let in

Labor, and even the Greens don't support open borders.

They are generally more pro immigration of course (especially the Greens; the ALPs current immigration policy largely mirrors the Coalitions). But you're trying to argue that 'the left' universal support zero border controls, and totally open borders, and an immigration free for all.

Here is the Greens immigration policy. Is it arguing that there shouldnt be any controls on immigation and borders?

At best that would be a fringe view. It's a fallacy to suggest that progressives think borders should a free for all.

 

[its free real estate]

For those who say it is white nationalism, look at this



You have no idea how deep antipathy is towards Islam in places like China and India.

 

[Malifice]

It is possible to determine what percentage of Neanderthal DNA you have in you (which no population from sub Saharan Africa has), so the idea that there are no markers is a bit of a furphy.

That's because Neanderthals were a different species, not a different race.

There are clear biological markers that separate them from Homo Sapiens. It can be measured by individual, and it features in varying percentages among some population groups and is absent in others.

It doesn't prove 'race'. It just proves some population groups of Homo Sapiens interbred with Neanderthals.

 

[pugsville]

Political parties, and before them monarchs, warlords and other would-be leaders have deliberately exploited the insecurities of their populations since the dawn of time, often adding a racial component for extra punch. If it hadn't proven so effective they'd stop using it.

Let's not pretend this only happens on one side of politics either. Lefties exploit other fears just as effectively.

Ahh delflection, everybody does some stuff, what about some oft other stuff.

But lets not pretend that parties of the right exploit this one much more often than parties of the left.

In Austrlia it's been critical part of liberal party election scince John Howard decided to blow up the bipartizanship on immigration for party political interests.

 

[its free real estate]

That's because Neanderthals were a different species, not a different race.

There are clear biological markers that separate them from Homo Sapiens. It can be measured by individual, and it features in varying percentages among some population groups and is absent in others.

It doesn't prove 'race'. It just proves some population groups of Homo Sapiens interbred with Neanderthals.

It proves race in the fact if someone has zero percent Neanderthal DNA, they are a black African. If it didn’t there would be no signal, only noise.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

For those who say it is white nationalism, look at this



You have no idea how deep antipathy is towards Islam in places like China and India.

He pushed explicitly white nationalist themes.

 

[Catters 070911]

Labor, and even the Greens don't support open borders.

They are generally more pro immigration of course (especially the Greens; the ALPs current immigration policy largely mirrors the Coalitions). But you're trying to argue that 'the left' universal support zero border controls, and totally open borders, and an immigration free for all.

Here is the Greens immigration policy. Is it arguing that there shouldnt be any controls on immigation and borders?

At best that would be a fringe view. It's a fallacy to suggest that progressives think borders should a free for all.

Then how come the mention of sending boats back, or getting immigrants processed brings calls of "racism" and how hard hearted right-wingers are?

The Greens have pushed completely open borders many times, and call anyone who tries to stop anyone who wants to come into this country a "racist".

I have an idea. How about we do a swap? We accept a boat of people, and the Greens can be sent back to the country that the boat came from, and hopefully it sinks on the way.

 

[its free real estate]

He pushed explicitly white nationalist themes.

Doesn’t matter, the idea is that this manifests out of the current culture, as opposed to being a reaction to Islam which is common across the globe.

 

[Jibroni]

She is in the same category as Justin Trudeau.

And I mean that in a truly negative way.

Bit harsh, at least she is not destroying her countries social fabric.

 

[Malifice]

It proves race in the fact if someone has zero percent Neanderthal DNA, they are a black African. If it didn’t there would be no signal, only noise.

Logic fail.

Having (or not having) Neanderthal DNA doesn't prove 'Biological Race' exists. It just proves whether or not you're descended from someone who banged a Neanderthal around 60,000 years ago, during the movement of Homo-sapiens from Africa.

Unless your argument is 'the biological line of demarcation for Homo Sapiens into different races should be % of Neanderthal DNA present in the individual'.

And if that's the case, why are we using Neanderthals only and not also Denosvians and other Homonids that different population groups also interbred with and admixed with?

Anyway, you and anyone else who is interested can go away and read this:

Racialism was first developed in the 1700s. It remained virtually unchallenged until the 1930s-1960s, when genetics showed it to be erroneous. Simply put, modern racialism is pseudoscientific bullshit.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Racialism

Lets otherwise agree for you to stop stinking up this thread with claims your scientific racism bullshit is accepted science. It isnt. You and I both know it.