Chuckling in the long room

[Pessimistic]

You can here the chuckling in the long room at the MCG (and at optus oval for that matter) as the news finally breaks that you need 30,000 punters at the footy at colonic stadium before the home team makes a profit.
Given that the figure is some 22 thousand for the MCG, 15 thousand at Optus (and 15,000 at waverley without the ridiculous 'reserved seat' crap at optus) It seems that this town couldn't afford a (dare I say) white elephant such as colonial.

Why didn't they build a cheapo 20,000 capacity Rugby/Soccer stadium at olympic park and be done with it. The money left over from the $460M would have gone very nicely towards improvements at the 'G'

And can I say that Ian Dicker was right again.

 

[Please explain....]

I haven't been reading messages on this board for long, so this may have been covered before. If so, please ignore.

What is wrong with you guys in Vic???? We have a stadium that has had a reserved seat policy for 10 years (Footy Park). About 3,000 seats are available for "dailies" which are available to general public 10 days before the match (again these are reserved seats). As far as I know this policy has worked well and is accepted by the people in S.A. Are you guys so precious you can't accept that you need to reserve a seat for the footy? Even so, as far as I understand, general admission seats are available at Col. Stadium. SO WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM??? I have travelled over to Col Stadium to watch a match, and thought it was great - had no problems getting in, and even though we had seats on the 4th level we could see everything very well. Not only are the players "precious" but I reckon you whinging supporters are "precious" as well.

 

[Pessimistic]

You'd be the same if they shut footy park and built another stadium which was smaller and twice the price and cost the crows money to play there.

As I see it footy park aint that much different to waverley

But what I am really saying is that Colonic stadium is not what was presented to the public. That the $460m might have been better spent elsewhere.

Funny how the people who 'persuaded ' us that we needed it are the same people who charged us $460m to build it

 

[Tracker]

Please explain, you seem to be going off on a tangent.

The situation that Pess is describing means that the smaller stadium costs more to run then the larger mcg.

So if you schedule lower drawing games to colonial the home club is getting a raw deal as even though a higher % of seats will be used the cost of putting on the game there is more.

Take the rich vs freo game. I believe they got about 23 K. rich makes a loss at the game whereas if it had have been held at the mcg they would have made a profit (even though it would only have filled a quarter of the g but fills about half of the c).

This is without going into the carlton compo debacle which is a whole other issue.

In vic we have the G so why souldn't we be pissed if they play one game there as opposed to 3 at colonial on a given weekend?

SA may be doing whats best with what they've got but why should that restrict what we should expect in vic?

 

[Bernie]

We knew it would happen but we let it happen anyway. We believed Graeme Samuel. We believed the top end of town when they said that privately funded infrastructure was the way to go. We naively assume the private sector is best at organising this stuff - market forces and all that. Patrick Smith has it right - footy is the ONLY product that can regularly generate revenue for this venue. Hence more games at CS and less at the 'G.
Face it - the project got it wrong, it's not a $$ bonanza. This is not the first time. Who've thought that you could actually lose money running a casino.
So the die is cast - what are we/they going to do now ?
All I can say is - thank god we have the MCG. What a wonderful piece of work this is - and correctly motivated. We can wonder in when the spirit moves, sit or stand with our friends and family and CONTINUE THE VIC SPORTING TRADITION.
Lucky supporters of clubs who are based there - I wonder how many more Bombers' fans would come to see them in their stellar year if they were still at the MCG. What was their average crowd last year compared to this year ? It MUST be less.
All this just proves - what goes around comes around, and then you wake up next morning with a hangover and a nasty rash.

 

[Pessimistic]

YES ! Colonic would workk quite well if it were the only game in town (eg Footy park/subiaco/gabba/SCG/Manchester united/Newcastleetc) all they would do then is raise the prices - it doas work -32,000 bomber fans bought memberships/reserved seats through fear of being locked out.

As you say thank god for the MCG keeping the competitive forces there. Now if only the AFL7 could manufacure a reason not to play there....

 

[elglen]

Here you go, a real life example. I'm an Essendon supporter living in the Western Suburbs who used to go to every game at the mcg, and any at Waverley or Optus Oval as well. This year with the move to Colonial Stadium I decided I'd better get myself a membership for the first time so that I would have more chance to get in. This year I have been to a total of 3 games, only one of them at Colonial stadium, because it's always announced that it is a ticket-only game, or that it has sold out- I can't afford to reserve seats. As a result I don't go to the footy anymore- not even at the mcg because I've fallen out of the habit of going to the football with the friends and family I used to go with.

 

[kevin sooky]

I am sure this was all a plot to counter the success of the team I coach. If Eddie MCGuire had been Prex of the Pies at the time he has previously said he would have chosen Colostomy Park ahead of the MCG for the Pies home. Let's see what he says tonight.

Imagine how big our crowds would have been at the 'G. For e.g. Ess v Gee, I would think more than 47K. It means Gee (who I belive was the home team) only made profit on 17K with 30K being the breakeven point whereas at the 'G, with 65000 they would have made profit on 50,000 people paying to get in. The same would apply to Dons home games.

We my friends have been shafted. It all started that night at Moonee Valley........Bloody proxy votes.

 

[Bernie]

Elglen,

Your situation is EXACTLY where this whole crazed thing has got us. If ever there was a time for you and yours to get the life-enhancing spiritual nourishment that gained from watching your team achieve success, and all that goes with it ( it is SUCH a buzz - surely this is what has drawn Melb. people to sport ), IT IS NOW. To follow your team thru' a maybe UNBEATEN season, even FINALS SUCCESS - that is it !!
But there you are - even out of the habit of contemplating spontaneous attendance. The tradition ( I assume ) that was handed you has been spoilt, maybe even lost. In a perverse way, your problem IS your team's success - you are being penalised for supporting a popular team. Totally wierd !!
In UK, I know of a family that supports Newcastle and have been paying 400 pounds for a season ticket ( 17 home games ). They have been told to upgrade to the 'exclusive' Supporters' Club - members-only bar etc - for next season at a cost of well over 1000 pounds for the same no. of home games !!
In the last 10 years, we have lost grounds, clubs and support opportunities whilst being told to 'get with the program' and 'change is inevitable', like there's some sort of Darwinian Law involved. This is not a good thing.

 

[Dan26]

Elglin,

I cannot believe what I am reading.

You sound like one of those talkback callers who call in on the radio after a game. You get all sorts of people, most of whom get the facts wrong.

You would have noticed that the top deck of Colonial is general admission. You can just go and sit wherever you want.

BUT, you did note that most Essendon games, due to the demand, have become all-ticket affairs. That's correct.

The St,Kilda game was an example.

Now I am an AFL member. I don't have a reserved seat. I went with two friends to the Dons-Saints game last Friday.

We walked up, I got given a "free" ticket (because I am an AFL member.) My two friends both payed 14 dollars, and we all got given a seat in the top deck. We went and sat down.


WHY DIDN'T YOU DO THAT ??????????

There was nothing stopping you just going to the game like normal, with your friends. You could have got a "free" ticket ON THE DAY (because you are a member) and then taken your seat on level 4

WHY DIDN'T YOU ???

It was no different to the MCG.

Same with our home match against Adelaide. It was announced it was an all-ticket match. So what ? You could have still just turned up ON THE DAY and got given a ticket and taken your seat. If you were going with friends, they would pay the 14 dollars (normal general admission) and you can all sit together.

As for the Geelong-Essendon game, it was a sell-out. BUT, it was a Geelong home game. Therefore, even if Essendon hadn't moved their home games to Colonial, that match still would have been at Colonial.

Every other Essendon match at Colonial, including the Dons-Bulldogs match in Round 6, you could have turned up with your friends and payed NO EXTRA to what you would pay at the MCG. I went with a friend who just turned up and payed his 14 dollars for that Round 6 match.

And if you DID decide to pre-reserve a seat you would pay the earth-shattering fee of $3.25. Since you are already a member, you would ONLY pay that $3.25 bookijng fee. The same as what you would pay at the MCG if you elected to reserve a seat there.

But you don't need to do this. Anyway, if you did, it's probably worth the $3.25, so you can turn up as late as you want, with no worries. You are paying the $3.25 for convenience.

Do me a favour. Go to our Round 15 Essendon-West Coast game. Just turn up with your friends and get a seat the same way you would normaly. The only difference is you will be given a specific seat (if the match demands it). None of your friends will pay any extra.

It just satggers me, the ignornace (with all due respect), that people have. The stadium is fantastic, and over the next 10 years, when these teethingproblems getout of the way, it will no doubt be the showcase, it is no starting to become.

 

[elglen]

Dan24,

I agree with you, I am ignorant when it comes to Colonial Stadium. That's part of the problem. The information on how to go about getting into the stadium isn't all that clear- if you're going to Essendon games that is.

Turning up on a "ticket only" game was what we did for the game against Adelaide. We had a great day, getting seats which were cushioned, on the second level. The problem with this is the uncertainty of whether we're going to get into the game or not. Nobody wants to travel to Colonial Stadium to be told there are no seats left.

Yes, I know that there have been seats left to all of the games besides for Geelong's home game, however not until AFTER the match have I known this- When Eddie McGuire announces on the footy show that if you don't have a ticket to the game, you can't get in, he doesn't mention that you can buy a ticket at the gate.

$3.25 plus booking fee isn't too bad for me alone to pay, but on top of the entry fee that some of my non-member friends have to pay, it's starting to get a bit deterring.

I'm just trying to illustrate how people like me are getting driven away from the footy, that's all. Personally, I'll be back, just as soon as I have this whole Colonial Stadium thing worked out. I don't know that others will.

 

[servo]

Just hope Colonial doesn't start to sell out regularly. In Adelaide where the stadium sells out at east every 2nd game we pay twice what you do to get in.

I don't know the single price but when I tried to get tickets a few weeks ago for two adults & two chidren I was quoted $94-. This was for uncovered seats behind the goals. Needless to say we didn't go.

As a result I will probably not be at another AFL game in Adelaide. It is almost cheaper to get a few mates in a mini bus and head to Colonial.

 

[hawkforce]

Dan, what right do you have to attack your own club's supporters? Especially when they have gone out and bought their club membership.

Whopping $3.25 booking fee? Not everyone has the money to consistently do this. Nor do they have the inclination when they already have to travel long distances (especially if coming from the East!).

Essendon's membership got a huge boost from the "fears of lockouts", and yet some of them are going less than they did in previous seasons.

That is a tragedy in my book.

 

[Dan26]

What a load of crap.

Here are some facts

Last year Essendon members SOLD OUT their annual reserved seats. Even though we were at the MCG, there wasn't enough annual reserved seats to fit the demand.

At Colonial, there are many thousands more annual reserved seats, to fit the demand.

Yet, there are still only a limited number. Once that limited number sells out, any membership sold, is a normal membership which gets you general entry into any game - for free.

Now, the annual reserved seats sold out VERY early. Like in January, or something.

So, the 15,000 members we have signed since January have signed despite not having an annual reserved seat.

YOU DON'T NEED ONE anyway.

These members can, and have been attending on the day, or either booking in advance. They don't NEED to book, but many are choosing to.

So get your facts right. They are NOT buying memberships for fear of being locked out. Why isn't Geelong or Carltons membership higher ? Optus and Kardinia are harder to get into than Colonial. so by your logic, Cats and Blues fans would be buying memberships for fear of being locked out.

Like at any stadium in the country entry is subject to capacity. Even as an AFL member, entry for me is subject to capacity. Even at the MCG, it is subject to capacity.

Colonial is no different. Yet despite this, it has been no problem for our members to attend on the day and get a good seat. No booking fee required. Just read my above post

Typical small minded Hawk fans who can;t see the logic, because their judgement is clouded by "over-emotional" Waverley attachment.

 

[hawkforce]

Over emotional Waverley attachment?

Small minded?

And you reckon you are not arrogant!

Am I right in assuming that the extent of your passion for your club is crowing that you have posted 300 bloody messages. You know nothing about what it is like to have your club targetted in an overcrowded market place.

Waverley, and its population base, represented Hawthorn's hope for a stable, viable future in the competition. Having survived the merger. Having got the club back on its feet, we needed to set foundations for the club to grow to match the four big clubs. Just as the fruit (membership; attendances etc) was beginning to ripen, our bloody stadium, around which our future was built, was ripped away in favour of a fully ticketed, middle class elite ground.

But oh, were being small minded. We are being over emotional.

Pull your head in Dan. It was an Essendon member who started this gripe. You answer that, fine. But don't you dare question Hawthorn members reasons for being bitter about the loss of Waverley. You will never know what it is like to truly "support" your club. Fight to stop it sinking into oblivion while pampered armchairists like yourself whine "I don't know what they are complaining about!"

Life is easier when the only financial problem your club has is how much they are going to cheat the salary cap this year!

 

[Dan26]

Ah, pull your head in.

Now look, I don't want to rattle of stat after stat after stat, but do you realise the crowds that Hawthorn drew to the MCG over the last, say 7 or 8 years are bigger than the crowds you drew to Waverley ? Did you know ?

I went over this in another post. Waverley might be convenient for some, but it is hell to get to for others. It's a stadium out in the suburbs for christs sake.

The MCG is central. No matter where you live, all supporters centrally converge to the city to go the footy. Instead of thinking of the supporters you've LOST, have you stopped to think of the supporters you've GAINED.

Hawthorn have quite a lot of support all around Melbourne. Not just in the Eastern suburbs. Yet, being at the MCG doesn't stop the "Eastern suburbs" followere from going at all, and it encourages the other supporters.

I understand what you are saying and I sympathise with you a bit. I'd hate to have my club piut in that situation.

But instead of looking at Colonial as a "replacement" for Waverley, look at it as a stadium in it's own right.

The problems with Colonail are associated with costs and the efficient running of it. These are problems that can (and will) be fixed. The stadium istelf is so incredibly much better for watching football, compared to Waverley, that the difference in incomparable.

Colonial is more convenient for nearly all football fans (you cant please everyone, or we'd have a stadium in every suburb)and it is better for viewing. This, primarily is why it was built. Waveley, despite what everyone is now saying, had an awful image.

Still, I don't see why we can't keep Waverley, and if the Hawks want it so bad, let them play there. We should STOP playing at Optus. That place serves no purpose except fulfilling a meaningless and un-workable AFL contract.

I still believe most Hawthorn supporters are clouded by biased view in regards to Colonial. Why can't they see the stadium for what it is, rather than a replacement for an embattled ground ?

 

[hawkforce]

Why can't the Kosovars see that Serbs only want what is best for Yugoslavia?

Why can't law-abiding homeowners see that the burglars have a family to feed?

Why can't indian Fijians see that the indigenous Figians want to rule themselves?

Why can't Dan24 understand that he comes across as patronising twat?

Argh! Statistics!!! Did you ever think that the reason we get bigger crowds at the MCG was because we were playing Essendon/Richmond/Collingwood there?? THINK!!! PLEASE THINK BEFORE YOU RATTLE OFF MORE USELESS SUBJECTIVE STATS.

The litmus test for knowing your supporter base is playing interstate sides. 1997- we were getting around 28 000 against the Lions. This year we got 20000. Where? MCG!

Whatever the case, Colonic is not our problem (unless we have to pay Carlton compensation). But asking Hawthorn fans to be objective about it is ridiculous.

If you want to hear views on Colonic I suggest you ring St Kilda or the Bullies.

They are the ones going broke.

 

[sainter]

Going broke may be a little exaggerated but someone has to be held responsible for the gate receipts.

I am not sure about the legal ramifications of this but surely if the saints and bulldogs moved the stadium on the premise that it would be a much more profitable venue, someone needs to be held accountable. If 30,000 is to be the break-even point, the saints and bulldogs will not be the only team struggling to make a profit (although obviously we are playing 11 games there)

As for the staffing levels, they could start by not having around 10 or 12 turnstile attendants at each gate.

Of course, I wouldn't have a grudge against the staff, I am well and truly over being overlooked for a job there.

But what would make my day is if what Brian Taylor said on MMM last week becones true. He believed that if Collo went ahead and sacked Nationwide Venue Management, all of the casual staff would be shown the door too leaving us MCG workers to replace them.

 

[Pessimistic]

It seems to me, reading betwen the lines, that colonic was never going to work financially unless the majority of the seats could demand a premium.

The AFL and associates openly said this. I remember collo in january saying 'They'll soon get used to pre-booking. A few times having to queue for tickets then queueing to get in will make them used to it.

After supporters went on 'strike' early this year collo (and others) backpedalled a million miles an hour and collo was the 'hero' who said members and walk-up could get seats on level 4. There has been a loss of revenue but the stadium owners etc don't seem to be suffering. Its the tenant clubs (especially bulldogs and Saints) who seem to be losing out

I did wonder if the model they used on saturday for the Hawks-Freo game where you could sit (almost)anywhere but level four was closed (hence saving on staffing costs) would be used more widely but it seems they don't want other clubs to know about it.

Another side effect of the unviability of colonic is that it seems to need 40 games per year whereas initially 22 were proposed.
They proudly said that there would be a limit on the number of games to keep the surface in near pristine condition (Hah !)

Extra games have had to be moved here to help finance the whole thing. This is one of the reasons waverley has been hung out to dry as the games were needed at colonic. Yet waverley is much more viable than colonial (admittedly much more utilitarian but perhaps that suits the market it was serving very well)

We do resent the term 'emotional' being used in relation to waverley. I believe the MCG (and occasionally colonial) are much better stadiums but Hawthorn was growing a nice little market out there which now is being ignored by the AFL) Incidentally Hawthorn did have a binding contract to play there and had found parties willing to pay the AFL the capital costs, yet still play football there, a win-win situation for all.

I don't blame essendon fans for being happy with colonial. They pretty much control it for very little capital investment. Very similar to the situation we wanted at Waverley

 

[Bernie]

The bottom line is - if Bombers fans wished to see their club in action, more could attend at the MCG than at Docklands.
The dream of Docklands, as with all bespoke reduced capacity grounds, is that the season is sold out BEFORE it starts. Therefore is 4 clubs share it , it can be sold out 4 times. Therefore you MUST create a situation where fans feel that HAVE to become members to get a look in. It's like a concert . I can fully understand the economics and logic of this.
However, there is the unique Victorian sporting experience that's been built on large stadiums - 'build it and they will come' - in that if you FEEL like attending you can. Maybe this is the OLD WAY that is no longer viable etc etc, but we as a community will lose.
An example, the International Game at the MCG after the finals last year. My family had no real intention of going , as did our neighbours. However, the kids got some free tickets thru' Auskick. We were all still not footyied out and the weather looked good so at about 5.00pm we decided to go. We ( 8 of us ) got on the train and started to realise that LOTS of people had similar feelings. Getting off at Jolimont, you could sense something special as 60,000+ just walked in and got on with an amazing night. The kids still talk about it. Imagine if, on getting to the ground, we could not get in due to capacity, membership , whatever.
That's the unique experience - it's OK if you're in the members/club/exclusive etc - but we all can't afford that and maybe we can't all fit anyway.
That's why I love the MCG and I reckon the Hawks are on a winner there.

 

[Drakey]

Nice dummy spit hawkforce. That was a beauty.

I'm interested in the tradition of "just turning up on the day". Sure it was easy enough at the MCG or Waverley, but what about the old days when each club had their own metro home ground. Did you "just turn up" to see Carlton v Collingwood at Vic Park or Collingwood v Essendon at Windy Hill.

Maybe you didn't reserve a ticket but there must of been a bit of planning involved. Surely these games were lock outs.

 

[Bernie]

The old days - I can only talk from my experience but the footy was more local. I started going to games with my family in 1962 and to go to an away ground - like Vic. Park or Windy Hill - was like going to a different planet. The family would gird their collective loins and the children were warned about the ways of the other tribes with anecdotes from uncles about games long ago. And we always went by train. We'd get to the game at about 1/2 time in the reserves ( there was ALWAYS a game on ), and live in hope. An away win was always the best 'cause you could tell everyone about it next week at home - the stories growing with the passage of time. Home games were like parties, 'cause normally staid adults would go off and food denied you at home was freely available ( donuts, chips ), AND you got to see the HEROES in the flesh, in black shorts creaming the visitors.

It was ALWAYS the big buzz to go to the MCG during the season, 'cause you hoped you'd be back for the finals ( and it was in the city ! ).

In all that time , I can't remember a lockout where I was turned away - I attended Carlton V Essendon at PP alot, Carlton V Collingwood at VP, many Geelong games at home, North at Arden St. in the 70's. We mostly stood, but I guess just a small amount of planning ( get there 3/4 hour before ) seemed adequate.
Of course the finals were different and you expected to queue - it added to the buildup.
Naturally it's all changed and mainly for the better - there were a lot of VERY drunk blokes and a toilet trip was a disturbing experience for an impressionable lad - but I guess it all seemed equal. You could all watch if you wanted to.
We used to pride ourselves that Melbourne was the sporting capital of the world and I feel that was based on the confidence of being able to experience a satisfying spontaneous collective sporting moment, that will sustain you until the next time. It seemed fair, not exclusive, very warm and you got to meet some people who you would not normally have met. Sounds like overseas travel , and all in you back yard !

I'll shut up now.

 

[Dan26]

Hawkforce,

You're wrong again.

Yes, at the MCG, you played Essendon, Richmond, and Collingwood.

You also played North Melbourne and Melbourne. Two clubs with little support.

Yes, you only got 20,000 against the Lions in Round 3. It was also after you had suffered two 10 goal thumpings in Rounds 1 and 2. You would have got over 30,000 if you had won your first two matches.

The crowds you got at the MCG, were bigger than what you got against those same opposition at Waverley. it's true. it's true.

Yes, there is a nice market out there near Waverley. A market which CAN STILL GO TO THE MCG. And the MCG als encourages Hawk fans from all over Melbourne. And it also encourages more neutral supporters at your games.

Don't compare me to a burgular. Or to the Serb/Kosovo crisis. Incomparable.

Hey, I didn't mind Waverley, anyway. I just like Colonial better.

Pessimstic, which stadium do you like beter, honestly ?