Claremont Murders - Crime writers Warner Blackburn Marshall - The investigation - Former suspects & POI - The good, the bad & the ugly theories

petedavo

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Ciara was away for months. Any contact with clothing would have to be very recent if not that day of the incident.

Has anyone have any evidence that would exonerate him? Fibres and DNA not being a good combination.
In a criminal case, one doesn't need to be exonerated, one only needs a reasonable doubt.
An alternative suspect or story isn't even required, but if there is one and it's plausible ticking off motive, opportunity and means then it might itself raise a reasonable doubt.
But there's the forensic evidence, which would be pretty strong for negating any alternative suspect scenario.
Yovich says there's other innocent explanations.
And there's the sandwich bags, which might form part of that explanation or not.
This will probably be the crucial part of the trial that the DPP would have to win IMO, so I'm going to watch this with interest.
Judgments are not made upon weight of evidence, or even certain probability. They are supposed to be made when the prosecution case is beyond reasonable doubt.
The trial hasn't occurred yet, and the Judge will decide in the end.

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Melsy

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In a criminal case, one doesn't need to be exonerated, one only needs a reasonable doubt.
An alternative suspect or story isn't even required, but if there is one and it's plausible ticking off motive, opportunity and means then it might itself raise a reasonable doubt.
But there's the forensic evidence, which would be pretty strong for negating any alternative suspect scenario.
Yovich says there's other innocent explanations.
And there's the sandwich bags, which might form part of that explanation or not.
This will probably be the crucial part of the trial that the DPP would have to win IMO, so I'm going to watch this with interest.
Judgments are not made upon weight of evidence, or even certain probability. They are supposed to be made when the prosecution case is beyond reasonable doubt.
The trial hasn't occurred yet, and the Judge will decide in the end.
I'm only proposing people look for evidence that can exonerate him from charges.
 

Melsy

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There is a lot of commentary online that it be coincidence he be charged just before election.

Not my call on the whole election thing by the way.

Say he was set up by police. What motive to go him? Why setup Bradley Robert Edwards?
 

BlueE

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Already denied being anywhere near the girls? Doesn't know how DNA came to be present.

1. Innocent contact - Where would this happen on the day? Ciara had been on holidays for months.
2. Adventurous contact - I hope they have crossed check adventitious reference. There are multiple samples.
3. Contamination in the collection process - Given the number of samples and the different crime locations. Whats the chances?

“With count eight (Ms Glennon’s murder) are there other possibilities ... innocent contact, adventitious match or contamination in the collection or testing process?
https://thewest.com.au/news/claremo...aises-questions-about-evidence-ng-b881111820z
Maybe from careless chain of custody with the kimono brought near other samples when testing some years ago?

They didn't seem to worry about that too much back in the days.
 

Melsy

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The defence doesn't have to do anything of the sort. Suggest reading Justice Martin's judgement in R Vs Rayney
Nothing to do with the trial proceedings.

Im not implying that. Im implying that users find information that may exonerate him.

Prosecution has to prove beyond doubt. I dare say the judge will err largely ont he side of caution with bringing down a finding. After all he has to publish his findings and how he came to that finding for each charge.

I'm suggesting all those internet commentators that made claim he has been set up, framed, put forward facts that might exonerate him from charges.
 
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Maybe from careless chain of custody with the kimono brought near other samples when testing some years ago?

They didn't seem to worry about that too much back in the days.
Im not clued up on DNA evidence , I know how it works etc. , but the degrees of matching I do understand … does it have to 100% or is near enough good enough
If its not 100% does that leave the door open for it to be a close relative who had access to cars etc.

He knows what crimes he has committed , he figures they have him hands down for them and he is getting the maximum because of the publicity

But what if he is taking the rap for someone else on the murders .. he thinks im going to jail anyway .. and his best chance of walking away from all of it is to be cleared of the murder charges

Because if he was cleared of the murder charges , he would not get the max for the rest , im not saying this is the case , but his family saying he is innocent despite the Alleged Evidence maybe someone knows something
 

Melsy

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Im not clued up on DNA evidence , I know how it works etc. , but the degrees of matching I do understand … does it have to 100% or is near enough good enough
If its not 100% does that leave the door open for it to be a close relative who had access to cars etc.

He knows what crimes he has committed , he figures they have him hands down for them and he is getting the maximum because of the publicity

But what if he is taking the rap for someone else on the murders .. he thinks im going to jail anyway .. and his best chance of walking away from all of it is to be cleared of the murder charges

Because if he was cleared of the murder charges , he would not get the max for the rest , im not saying this is the case , but his family saying he is innocent despite the Alleged Evidence maybe someone knows something
The kimono has cross matching fingerprints.

It is sperm. I guess evidence would be how the sperm is impregnated in the garment. Worse, if there is other different types of family DNA on the garment?

Unless Captain Underpants was wearing his usual balaclava, there might be a few witnesses on the Kimono caped commander?
 
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The kimono has cross matching fingerprints.

It is sperm. I guess evidence would be how the sperm is impregnated in the garment. Worse, if there is other different types of family DNA on the garment?

Unless Captain Underpants was wearing his usual balaclava, there might be a few witnesses on the Kimono caped commander?

Thank you , I was leaning more towards the DNA evidence for the murders , ive taken it as a given he is guilty of the earlier crimes , but is the DNA match for the murders 100% ... or doesn't it have to be 100%
 

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sprockets

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There's no such thing as 'family DNA'. Each person has their own DNA and it's exactly the same DNA no matter where it's found on the body. You get your DNA from your parents. Each parent passes one of each pair of 23 pairs of chromosomes to give you a total of 46 (and you'll pass 23 of those to your offspring). It's why a sibling is often a close match to you - they get their DNA from your parents as well.

As for 100% match or whatever, they'll always give a likelihood of it being someone else, depending on the testing procedure, because they aren't testing the whole of your DNA, they're only testing it at certain points (markers). There'd be a lot of people even outside your direct family with one of your markers, there'll be less with two of them and by the time they test 23 or whatever they test to these days the chance of someone else having all of those same markers will be, say, 1 in 100 billion or whatever, again depending on how many markers they test for.
 
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There's no such thing as 'family DNA'. Each person has their own DNA and it's exactly the same DNA no matter where it's found on the body. You get your DNA from your parents. Each parent passes one of each pair of 23 pairs of chromosomes to give you a total of 46 (and you'll pass 23 of those to your offspring). It's why someone else in your family is often a close match to you - they get their DNA from your parents as well.

As for 100% match or whatever, they'll always give a likelihood of it being someone else, depending on the testing procedure, because they aren't testing the whole of your DNA, they're only testing it at certain points (markers). There's be a lot of people even outside your direct family with one of your markers, there'll be less with two of them and by the time they test 23 or whatever they test to these days the chance of someone else having all of those same markers will be, say, 1 in 100 billion or whatever, again depending on how many markers they test for.

Ok , thank you
 

one eyed spy

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This will be an 'and and and' case, and guilt is decided beyond reasonable doubt. Sure she might have accidentally scratched him reaching for a napkin and sure someone from Telecom may have stolen some things from him and then killed the girls and sure he has a porn addiction and sure he's written and downloaded some disturbing stories with similarities to what actually happened, blah blah blah... all of those things in isolation could happen, but if there's this and this and this and this, etc, the case eventually gets to beyond reasonable doubt. It's why prosecutors and police gather as much evidence as they can, no matter how insignificant it might seem in isolation.
Thats the idea, but it doesnt invalidate my point that you can be stacked "and & and" to the ceiling & still be totally wrong regardless how convinced you are & thus there are innocent people sitting in jail.

My comments were in response to a discussion that I perceived as essentially saying 'his DNA is on her body, how can he deny it when hes already said he cant explain it' & I suggested that sometimes its not always as it seems.

Not one piece of evidence has been tested yet. We dont know if the judge will accept it all and the decision will be an easy one or if all of it will be deemed so unreliable it could never pass for reasonable doubt. To base opinions on untested evidence can be just as unreliable as not testing it at all.

I very much doubt he was anywhere else but Rowe Park in Feb 1995 but he wouldnt be the first person to look guilty as all hell on the surface & not be & for that reason alone, I'll reserve judgement till trial.
 
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one eyed spy

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Ciara was away for months. Any contact with clothing would have to be very recent if not that day of the incident.

Has anyone have any evidence that would exonerate him? Fibres and DNA not being a good combination.
For sure, if there were a legitimate innocent reason his DNA was on her I'd imagine it would have to be very recent contact.
I was just pissing in the wind really but all I'm essentially saying is that we can't draw too many conclusions because a one sided story isnt a determination of the facts.
 

Beatnicked

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They both reached for a napkin at the same time in a cafe in the city at lunch time & she scratched him accidently. He didnt know it was her & doesnt recall the incident.

They were in the same deli early that morning and she was given the note he bought an ice coffee with as change. He had it scrunched up in the pocket his hand was in. She ran it under her thumb nail while she waited for the bus.

She used a phone box he had just repaired and broke her nail dialing the number or she ran her thumb along an edge he'd touched just prior & picked up his DNA.

He stopped to offer her a lift on the highway because he recognised her from prior legal functions with his wife. She declined but she picked up traces of his DNA on her hands from leaning into his car.

Highly unlikely, maybe.
Impossible, probably not.

Im sure I could come up with plenty more reasons where neither person would have been aware of the others presence & one walked away with the other persons DNA on them.

The majority of the alleged incidents we learnt about recently wouldnt have been known to them prior to arrest. They've spent over 2 years scraping around trying to find anything they can to convict this guy. Im sure they could've found just as many people & probably more claiming they were picked up by LW if he was ever actually arrested & charged too.

The witnesses that got into a car with him previosly obviously got out again so who knows if the girls that were killed did actually encounter him or not. It was said that a man "broadly" matching Edwards description wa offering girls lifts either claiming he worked for Telstra or in a Telstra vehicle. They already investigated a telstra worker and found nothing to link him. Doesnt mean that wasnt him though. Hypothetically, what if BREs a rapist only, nothing else & the murderer is another Telstra worker who happened to purposely take the rope & anything else he used in the murders from BREs car knowing his DNA would be all over it. Drove the same model car as BRE so thats proves nothing either.

Or what if he wasnt a telstra worker at all but had fake decals like the cabbys without the meters had, they even had roof top signs. Or maybe he had access to Telstra cars.

Id be interested to know if the stories hes apparently edited had any elements of murder in them as well, that may be telling.

Im not attempting to jump to his defense or claim his innocence, I'm just pointing out that sometimes no matter how bad a picture you can paint of someone when your desperately attempting to and with a truck load of resources and manpower to do it, you can come up with something that looks solidly convincing, but is also very wrong.
The 'other' Telstra worker, from memory he too was from Madora Bay? Was he a housemate of the accused and 1st wife?

When was the 'other' Telstra worker investigated and cleared?
 

one eyed spy

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The 'other' Telstra worker, from memory he too was from Madora Bay? Was he a housemate of the accused and 1st wife?

When was the 'other' Telstra worker investigated and cleared?
Besides what Ive heard along the way, I havent a clue what the go was.
The most recent comments were 2 weeks ago in the trial thread 20-22Feb19 (links below). Thought not to have been cleared but no evidence found ro link?

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...n-edwards-trial-updates.1194825/post-59612037
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...n-edwards-trial-updates.1194825/post-59622366
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...n-edwards-trial-updates.1194825/post-59623357
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...n-edwards-trial-updates.1194825/post-59623442
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...dwards-trial-updates.1194825/post-59637043the
 

Beatnicked

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Be interesting to know if the Croc footy team copper photographed with bre in 2007/2008 is still with wapol or left and worked for Telstra.
 

Melsy

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Be interesting to know if the Croc footy team copper photographed with bre in 2007/2008 is still with wapol or left and worked for Telstra.
I wouldn't be surprised that's why it was published in the paper. Also however, I think it might have been concerns that someone inadvertently, might have been tipped on some of the goings on.
 

Beatnicked

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The thing is Shelly, I had a mate ask me if I wanted to go to the Claremont hotel. We had hardly been there ever but we had friends from the neighbourhood going so it was a chance to catch up.

I remember thinking walking in, CSK could be watching outside or be inside for that matter. There was a level of suspicion.

Two bourbons later I was feeling drowsy with an abnormal feeling. At the time I didn't know about these things. I didn't go out much. I was thinking I shouldnt feel like this after two bourbons and it didnt feel like being drunk, especially after two bourbons. My eyes were a little jittery.

Cant remember how I got home, but I dare say it was with the person I went with. That was at the Conti, at the time of the incidents.
Your imagination is in top flight today.
 

Melsy

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Your imagination is in top flight today.
I can't help it if you don't want to accept fact. I have one witness. Still waiting for your imaginary court appeal.

At the time, chemicals were readily available in industrial form and cheap as chips. Not yet controlled substances, about 20 cents to wipe someone out.

Other forms of drugs around that time, such as ecstasy, became more mainstream in the pub and club scene.
 
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I've still not read or heard anything on it except for last night, WTF is with that? Does nobody want to report on it because it is the same venue the girls went missing from? not like it'll effect the upcoming case seeing it is a Judge only. I don't care yoursexual orientation as long as you & your partner are consenting adults. These guys, some are only 18-19. They have a right to know & to be protected
 

Beatnicked

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I can't help it if you don't want to accept fact. I have one witness. Still waiting for your imaginary court appeal.

At the time, chemicals were readily available in industrial form and cheap as chips. Not yet controlled substances, about 20 cents to wipe someone out.

Other forms of drugs around that time, such as ecstasy, became more mainstream in the pub and club scene.
I am getting damned tired of trying to make out what you are referring to. your comment about your suspicion you had been subjected to a drink spiking event such as what is alleged to have occured this year according to media reports yesterday, reads that your event occured this year.

BTW its not my court appeal. That comment was unnecessary and shows your insincerity.
 
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