Current Claremont Murders Discussion & Edwards trial updates pt2

How would you find Bradley Robert Edwards?

  • Not guilty on all

  • Guilty on all

  • Ciara Glennon - Guilty

  • Ciara Glennon & Jane Rimmer - Guilty

  • I need more information!

  • This is sooo sub-judice, I'm dobbing you in shellyg

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shellyg said:
Yovich might change his mind, he's done it once already claiming innocence on his clients earlier charges.

Not much point in bringing in a parade of DNA scientists to confuse not a jury but the judge unless he really has to. imo.
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Probably not. He stated in his opening that they agree its his DNA, just dont agree on how it got there...
 
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the dark knight said:
Definitely. We have the right judge. I've got all confidence in justice Hall.

Jezza will be in the box seat to give us the insights that the media don't.

Correct me if I'm wrong, But I can't see any juvenile records being surfaced in court. Unless it's a strong relation to the alleged crimes. As in he's done the exact same thing before. They're not aloud to bring those records in if they aren't classed as relevant are they? State by state may be different. I think over here in Vic there's something like that in place. As I said I could be wrong. Which if proven I'll happily cop on the chin.
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Juvenile records can be used at sentencing.

I've been told by a friend who worked with him (and on this case) that Hall is "one of the good ones".
 
sprockets said:
Juvenile records can be used at sentencing.

I've been told by a friend who worked with him (and on this case) that Hall is "one of the good ones".
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We got serial killer Peter Dupas's juvenile record at some point but I couldn't remember if it was directly after sentencing or it leaked out later.
 
Now that I'm thinking about Peter Dupas, there are some similarities with BRE. From the FBIs latest study on serial killers most of them which surprised me, didn't use a knife and Dupas did. Location for one of his attacks was a cemetery, active as a murderer between 1997 and 1999.
 
sprockets said:
Juvenile records can be used at sentencing.

I've been told by a friend who worked with him (and on this case) that Hall is "one of the good ones".
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clearing up of that. I wasn't sure if it could be used in trial and/or sentencing.

A fair, reasonable and intelligent judge won't give any fuel for appeal. Hall matches that. I've done some digging and honestly He is no stranger to the big league. So no queries about his abilities here.

On a side note, Dupas should've been hanged.
 
There's been a lot of talk about the DNA samples being contaminated. If you find female DNA that doesn't belong to CG in the Crime scene DNA it must be contaminated. The sample isn't pure. They were also errors in the Documentation. This trial is not cut and dry by any stretch. Claremont Case Cop admits Documentation errors. The evidence will be judged using 2020 standards. The Pathwest employee that discovered the link to BRE was retrenched for cutting corners over a period of time. Hardly a reliable witness. Yovich has a good hand to play with. By the recent delays is shows this trial may be too big for the prosecution. They may have required more time to take this to trial. BRE isn't going anywhere. His admission to the Huntingdale and KK attacks will keep him in Jail for at least 12 years or more.
 
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BonzaRam said:
These people will be talking about it also

"Mr Rankin is an engineer who is able to give evidence regarding the use of fabrics in certain models of car. This is relevant to the fibre evidence and the prosecution case that some of the fibres found are consistent with having come from a car of a make and model driven by the accused at the relevant time."

"Mr Smith works for Bruck Textiles and provides information regarding fabric styles and colours used between 1989 and 1997. This also relates to the fibre evidence."

"Mr Summerton worked for the Yakka company and provides information regarding Telecom/Telstra uniforms and logos, the process by which Telstra clothing was ordered and the extent of the use of a particular fabric colour. This also relates to the fibre evidence."

"Mr Fernandez worked for the Workwear Group and is able to give evidence regarding the production of the fabric used to produce Telstra uniforms. This also relates to the fibre evidence."

"Ms Wagner-Chavez works for Bruck Textiles and provides information which refers to and annexes a table of comparison of fabrics used to produce Telstra uniforms. "

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It's quite extraordinary that we have experts that can confirm the Telstra uniform fabric going back to the 90s. On the other hand Telsra before being re-branded from it's previous name of Telecom has no knowledge or file of BRE committing the assault at HH. One that was committed on a female Commonwealrh Government employee working for their client HH. The Ironic part is the KK victim ends up at HH looking for help. A Telecom vehicle is sited by Security driving along slowly like it's looking for something. Both HH and KK have fabric placed over their mouths. Security especially would have remembered the HH attack. And the method of attack. I wonder if they were interviewed after KK?
 
sprockets said:
Personally I don't want courts going to those lengths. It should be enough for labs to have a written process in place and then it's ticked off as they go, even if the labs have to employ someone as a witness, who signs off on the testing. Just have the labs supply their paperwork for each sample. Defence can pick out the faults in the process from looking at the paperwork if they have to.

Having to explain the testing procedure in a trial for every individual sample is tedious, although the lawyers love it because it makes them dollars. When you consider most of the witnesses won't remember performing each test they did 20+ years ago it gets a bit ridiculous. 'Did you wear gloves? Of course I did.' Yada yada.
Click to expand...
If the Documentation has errors it can be challenged and excluded. Yovich is pushing for incompetence. He's challenging the Documentation and the numerous crime scene errors. He's doing a good job of it. It's a pity he wasn't part of the Prosecution team. It might be tedious. The Devil is in the detail.
 
JWS2019 said:
Looking forward to his cross this week! With hope it fails ! But will still be interesting to see.
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Finding female DNA in a crime scene sample that doesn't belong to the victims is a pretty large screw-up. The sample is contaminated. This will be question when Justice Hall brings down his verdict in the future. The Chain of evidence would be compromised. Yovich doesn't need DNA experts to defend BRE. With good Cross examination from the Prosecution they could be more of a problem for BRE. The Defense is having a field day with all the errors. I have no idea why they haven't tried to link BRE with the MM at the Conti. There are many people out there myself included that are convinced it's BRE. Height, Shoulder line. look at the side of the hair. That person has never been identified. He really got the attention of JR. I feel for the Prosecution. Trying to convict BRE 20 years later is hard. The Forensic technology today is so far ahead of of 90s. Lets hope BRE's second wife has the smoking gun. What did the Lodger see in his room?
 

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Sepai said:
If the Documentation has errors it can be challenged and excluded. Yovich is pushing for incompetence. He's challenging the Documentation and the numerous crime scene errors. He's doing a good job of it. It's a pity he wasn't part of the Prosecution team. It might be tedious. The Devil is in the detail.
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Yes the documentation is what I'm talking about. Look at the accredited process and make sure it's been followed and if not challenge it. Relying on memories of events that happened 20+ years ago in a lab has issues - not only are you asking for that hazy memory detail you're also expecting people not to cover for mistakes they may have made.

What are the "numerous crime scene errors"?
 
Sepai said:
Finding female DNA in a crime scene sample that doesn't belong to the victims is a pretty large screw-up. The sample is contaminated. This will be question when Justice Hall brings down his verdict in the future. The Chain of evidence would be compromised. Yovich doesn't need DNA experts to defend BRE. With good Cross examination from the Prosecution they could be more of a problem for BRE. The Defense is having a field day with all the errors. I have no idea why they haven't tried to link BRE with the MM at the Conti. There are many people out there myself included that are convinced it's BRE. Height, Shoulder line. look at the side of the hair. That person has never been identified. He really got the attention of JR. I feel for the Prosecution. Trying to convict BRE 20 years later is hard. The Forensic technology today is so far ahead of of 90s. Lets hope BRE's second wife has the smoking gun. What did the Lodger see in his room?
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The 41 sample showed the possibility of contamination in that it had an extra allele at the D21 locus. Jezza explained earlier (he was there that day) that the allele peak was much smaller than the other two CG peaks. This could well be an artifact such as a forward stutter peak. We also know that 41 had the most CG DNA than any of the other nails tested, so this actually gives weight to thinking that the extra allele may just have been an artifact. CG's alleles were 28 and 29. The extra allele was one bp longer.
Yovich's questioning that day was odd: "All we can tell ... is that there is a suggestion of a second contributor, there's no suggestion that contributor was male because no male DNA was detected, and your testing is sensitive for male DNA," he said.
He has now asked what the minimum threshold amount of DNA was to return a profile using its SGM+ testing and Y chromosome testing.
Dr Harbison said for SGM+, a full DNA profile could be obtained by samples with 0.1 nanograms of DNA, and a partial profile could be obtained from even less. For the Y chromosome testing she said a full profile could typically be obtained from 0.1 nanograms, and sometimes less than that" (0.1ng is 100 picograms so DNA from 15 diploid cells or 30 haploid cells).

He has unwittingly helped the prosecution as 42 didnt show any sign of contamination. On one hand is saying that one extra allele on 41 shows "no suggestion of male DNA because the testing was sensitive for male DNA"....on the other hand the implication from that, is that 42 wasnt contaminated then as the Y-STR testing was "sensitive for male DNA". He cant have it both ways....if he trusts the Y-STR test enough to think it excludes his clients DNA on 41, then he has to trust the test enough to know that 42 didnt show any male DNA either, therefore wasnt contaminated in 2004.
I bet Hall noted this too.
 
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Sepai said:
It's quite extraordinary that we have experts that can confirm the Telstra uniform fabric going back to the 90s. On the other hand Telsra before being re-branded from it's previous name of Telecom has no knowledge or file of BRE committing the assault at HH. One that was committed on a female Commonwealrh Government employee working for their client HH. The Ironic part is the KK victim ends up at HH looking for help. A Telecom vehicle is sited by Security driving along slowly like it's looking for something. Both HH and KK have fabric placed over their mouths. Security especially would have remembered the HH attack. And the method of attack. I wonder if they were interviewed after KK?
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I am failing to see how what Telecom/Telstra did or didn't know about the HH assault relates to the manufacturers of their uniforms.

HH Security (Mr Wookey) has testified:

"The next witness to be called is Wayne William Wookey, a retired security guard from Hollywood Hospital who was working on February 12, 1995 - the day Mr Edwards raped the 17-year-old girl at Karrakatta cemetery."

"He told the court he used to conduct security patrols around the perimeter of the hospital and on that particular night he carried out four.
A heavy smoker, he said he also went for numerous cigarette breaks recalled one cigarette break he had with the hospital cleaner.
He said it was still dark at when he noticed a car coming up with high beam headlights on.
"Blinding," he added.
He said it was coming up William Street towards the hospital.
"I turned my head away, the lights were too bright. I heard it slow down then turn left, then head up towards the cemetery."
Mr Wookey said once the lights were no longer in his field of vision he was able to see the car.
"It was a Telstra vehicle, it was a Telstra van," he said "It was white. It had the Telstra sticker on the door. I think it was the door.
"It had a new shaped window on the front. Back in those days it was pretty flash. It looked brand new."
 
zedx said:
Yoviche's statement "...just don't agree how it got there." Does any one think this is important? I wonder if he is just implying contamination? or something else??
Click to expand...

Most likely contamination but it could be something else. I am still trying to get my head around this. The fingernail dropped into the container and was sealed and labelled and we have been told many times it was never opened again until it reached the UK in 2008.

Morgue clipping 1997

"Then the end of the fingernail dropped directly into the container, and I screwed that yellow top back on," he told court.

"Sgt McCulloch then told the court after reviewing the footage of the post-mortem he said after the fingernail was collected he had a blue pen in his hand and wrote AJM 40 as soon as top goes on, and then secured it."

This is a crucial piece of evidence - the thumbnail, AJM 40, is one of two clippings that the prosecution says contains trace
DNA from Mr Edwards.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is when the samples were being prepared to be sent to NZ in 2003/04

Mr Bagdonavicius then read out the list to the court as well as the comments he made next to them. This document is what was sent to ESR.

The court heard that when Mr Bagdonavicius examined AJM 40 - Ciara's left thumbnail that is alleged to contain trace DNA belonging to Mr Edwards - he had written that it was "debris, not suitable for analysis".

When asked why he wrote that, he said: "The item was described as left thumbnail and on previous viewing there was no actual nail in the container." When asked how he made that assessment, he said it was made from a visual inspection.

When asked how he made that description he told the court he looked through the yellow top container and read the label explaining there were no swabs or large pieces of material, adding it was so small he couldn't really identify what it was.
 
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Interesting article in Post Newspapers dated 2009 headed Barnett cutbacks threaten forensic reforms.

"Back in 2005 forensic scientist Professor Barclay was brought to Perth to review the Claremont murder cases and later to report on forensic procedures in WA. He found much to criticise. In a 2006 interview, he likened problems with WA justice to problems in South Wales in the 1990s, when nine people were wrongfully imprisoned for crimes they did not commit.


 
Countessa said:
Interesting article in Post Newspapers dated 2009 headed Barnett cutbacks threaten forensic reforms.

"Back in 2005 forensic scientist Professor Barclay was brought to Perth to review the Claremont murder cases and later to report on forensic procedures in WA. He found much to criticise. In a 2006 interview, he likened problems with WA justice to problems in South Wales in the 1990s, when nine people were wrongfully imprisoned for crimes they did not commit.


Click to expand...

A bit of Deja Vu...... "could not get a fair trial", that would grounds for appeal would it not?

"Justice McKechnie delayed a murder trial after a police bungle with getting clothing tested and late delivery
of prosecution documents to the defence meant that the defendants could not get a fair trial."
 
kingswood71 said:
The 41 sample showed the possibility of contamination in that it had an extra allele at the D21 locus. Jezza explained earlier (he was there that day) that the allele peak was much smaller than the other two CG peaks. This could well be an artifact such as a forward stutter peak. We also know that 41 had the most CG DNA than any of the other nails tested, so this actually gives weight to thinking that the extra allele may just have been an artifact. CG's alleles were 28 and 29. The extra allele was one bp longer.
Yovich's questioning that day was odd: "All we can tell ... is that there is a suggestion of a second contributor, there's no suggestion that contributor was male because no male DNA was detected, and your testing is sensitive for male DNA," he said.
He has now asked what the minimum threshold amount of DNA was to return a profile using its SGM+ testing and Y chromosome testing.
Dr Harbison said for SGM+, a full DNA profile could be obtained by samples with 0.1 nanograms of DNA, and a partial profile could be obtained from even less. For the Y chromosome testing she said a full profile could typically be obtained from 0.1 nanograms, and sometimes less than that" (0.1ng is 100 picograms so DNA from 15 diploid cells or 30 haploid cells).

He has unwittingly helped the prosecution as 42 didnt show any sign of contamination. On one hand is saying that one extra allele on 41 shows "no suggestion of male DNA because the testing was sensitive for male DNA"....on the other hand the implication from that, is that 42 wasnt contaminated then as the Y-STR testing was "sensitive for male DNA". He cant have it both ways....if he trusts the Y-STR test enough to think it excludes his clients DNA on 41, then he has to trust the test enough to know that 42 didnt show any male DNA either, therefore wasnt contaminated in 2004.
I bet Hall noted this too.
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When you say maybe? If it can't be properly explained and identified it's a contamination. We are judging mid 90s Forensic technology with 2020 Forensic practices. Can Justice Hall use it in his decision making? A jury would hang BRE anyway. The judge has to stick to the letter of the Law. If it's used it will open up an avenue for appeal. Maybe this is why Yovich hasn't asked for expert forensic help for the Defense at this time. BRE is going to be in Jail for years for the crimes he's pleaded guilty to. The Defense is under no pressure for a quick result. The Prosecution is, given the money that the trial will cost so far. That's on the back of a recent high profile trial that went nowhere. And has ended up in a Lawsuit.
 
Sepai said:
When you say maybe? If it can't be properly explained and identified it's a contamination. We are judging mid 90s Forensic technology with 2020 Forensic practices. Can Justice Hall use it in his decision making? A jury would hang BRE anyway. The judge has to stick to the letter of the Law. If it's used it will open up an avenue for appeal. Maybe this is why Yovich hasn't asked for expert forensic help for the Defense at this time. BRE is going to be in Jail for years for the crimes he's pleaded guilty to. The Defense is under no pressure for a quick result. The Prosecution is, given the money that the trial will cost so far. That's on the back of a recent high profile trial that went nowhere. And has ended up in a Lawsuit.
Click to expand...
Can hall use what in his decision making? The bit about no male DNA on 41 and no male DNA on 42 in 2004?
 
BonzaRam said:
I am failing to see how what Telecom/Telstra did or didn't know about the HH assault relates to the manufacturers of their uniforms.

HH Security (Mr Wookey) has testified:

"The next witness to be called is Wayne William Wookey, a retired security guard from Hollywood Hospital who was working on February 12, 1995 - the day Mr Edwards raped the 17-year-old girl at Karrakatta cemetery."

"He told the court he used to conduct security patrols around the perimeter of the hospital and on that particular night he carried out four.
A heavy smoker, he said he also went for numerous cigarette breaks recalled one cigarette break he had with the hospital cleaner.
He said it was still dark at when he noticed a car coming up with high beam headlights on.
"Blinding," he added.
He said it was coming up William Street towards the hospital.
"I turned my head away, the lights were too bright. I heard it slow down then turn left, then head up towards the cemetery."
Mr Wookey said once the lights were no longer in his field of vision he was able to see the car.
"It was a Telstra vehicle, it was a Telstra van," he said "It was white. It had the Telstra sticker on the door. I think it was the door.
"It had a new shaped window on the front. Back in those days it was pretty flash. It looked brand new."
Click to expand...
I was referring to Security being interviewed in 1995 when the victim showed up at HH. Does that make sense? Not 20 years later. The HH attack would have been common knowledge among Security at the time. The fabric is made by the thousands of metres. It's a batch fabric. Do the fibers found have BRE's DNA on them? If it did they would have said by now. It might tie in if they had more circumstantial evidence. Lets hope they have.
 
kingswood71 said:
Can hall use what in his decision making? The bit about no male DNA on 41 and no male DNA on 42 in 2004?
Click to expand...
Unfortunately there's that many errors can he use anything they have found. They were collecting samples for future technology to examine.. That was clever. The documentation and samples have a question mark against them. Yovich has done a good job of picking it apart. NZ found problems with some of the samples. Read their report. Doubt is a weapon for the defense. I believe BRE is guilty of the murders. And probably more crimes we don't know about. I would be more comfortable if it was a Jury trial.
 
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