Current Claremont Murders Discussion & Edwards trial updates pt3 - The Verdict

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Gpop

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When the MM walked up to JR, it wasn't the first time they'd spoken. Judging by the smile, the MM had said something which JR liked, or she was being polite.
If they'd met earlier that evening, he should have been spotted on CCTV at some stage.
To me it looked like she had been waiting for him and was happy to see him. Something could have been arranged the week before, hence Kimdelia's bogsy comments!
 

Krusty Crab

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Doesn't necessarily have to be "Bogsy", just the idea she was possibly meeting "someone" that night. Its not withholding anything not introducing it as no one saw her leave & they have no proof she left with anyone she knew.
For me, it explains the lies about MM vid & the stupid explanation that she "just wanted to meet someone".
I can accept she returned to the pub and stood outside at closing time because she was waiting for someone.
if JR returned to the pub and decided to wait around for someone, then you would have to think that meeting would of been organised previous. either during her time while partying that night, or sometime previous. she didn't have a mobile phone, so how would she be able to communicate to someone to meet her at that location if it was a spur of the moment idea? if she knew the person she was waiting for was inside the bar, then why not enter and strike up a conversation?

no one has come forward though to say they had an arranged meeting with JR at that location, and none of the other people that were known to be partying that night have said they organized to catch up later. if she was hoping to find a random bloke from previous nights out at the bar, then surely being inside would offer a better chance of finding the guy? it looks to me like she was either waiting for MM, who was legit (could of been a married man so hesitant to come forward), or waiting for MM who was the CSK, or waiting for someone else who turned out to be the CSK, or (in my opinion a very low probability seeing as no one has come forward in this extent after all these years) she was waiting for someone else unknown that has never come forward. i cant see any other reasons why JR would turn down going home with her friends in favour of standing around in front of a bar.
 

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one eyed spy

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I think the ''meeting Bogsy' evidence would have outweighed most of the other evidence, including him attacking people unknown or barely known to him. It doesn't really make that much difference whether he attacked people he knew or not, especially when he'd forever silence them afterwards. Compare that with people knowing who was with her when she died.
I really cant see anyway it may have benefited either side to introduce. Yovich said all along the case would go to a question of identity.

What it may have potentially done to the prosecutions case was weakened it considerably if anything, by introducing a legitimate reason for the fibres to be found on JR which wasnt consistent with their theory that they could only have been deposited in the course of her murder. It may have been the reasonable doubt Hall needed to deliver a not guilty on JR and wipe out any slim chance for SS.

For Yovich to have used it to his advantage he'd need to have convinced them that BRE knew JR & she was in his car, but she was very much alive when they parted company. Which blows his defence sky high.

Better that neither touched it IMO.
 

sprockets

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I really cant see anyway it may have benefited either side to introduce. Yovich said all along the case would go to a question of identity.

What it may have potentially done to the prosecutions case was weakened it considerably if anything, by introducing a legitimate reason for the fibres to be found on JR which wasnt consistent with their theory that they could only have been deposited in the course of her murder. It may have been the reasonable doubt Hall needed to deliver a not guilty on JR and wipe out any slim chance for SS.

For Yovich to have used it to his advantage he'd need to have convinced them that BRE knew JR & she was in his car, but she was very much alive when they parted company. Which blows his defence sky high.

Better that neither touched it IMO.
It might be a legitimate reason for the fibres but he was also the last person to see her alive. Last person to see someone alive is always at the top of the list of suspects. If they knew for a fact she was meeting a Bogsy they'd have honed in on him years (maybe even two decades) earlier, depending on when it was reported to them, hence why I don't believe it happened.
 

BFew

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What it may have potentially done to the prosecutions case was weakened it considerably if anything, by introducing a legitimate reason for the fibres to be found on JR which wasnt consistent with their theory that they could only have been deposited in the course of her murder.
As per the Justice Hall Final Verdict 619 page document section which refers to fibres and date rape v stranger rape (see below), that I quoted in a lengthy WASC 339 series of quotes post earlier tonight.
THE STATE OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA -v- EDWARDS [No 7] [2020] WASC 339

Interpretation of the results
Ray Palmer – evidence summary

...
2171 In evaluating the significance of fibre evidence Dr Palmer said that there were a number of resources a person conducting a forensic examination could call upon. The first of these is peer‑reviewed research as to the frequency of certain fibre colour combinations. Second, the examiners own experience. Third, the known circumstances of the case, because fibre evidence, like all forensic evidence, is context sensitive. The circumstances of the case will often condition what it is expected. He gave the example of a date rape as opposed to a stranger rape; in the former case fibres might not be particularly probative because the parties are likely to have been in legitimate contact whereas in the latter case they may be more probative because there is no suggestion of legitimate contact.
[1979]
 

Likeamystery

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if JR returned to the pub and decided to wait around for someone, then you would have to think that meeting would of been organised previous. either during her time while partying that night, or sometime previous. she didn't have a mobile phone, so how would she be able to communicate to someone to meet her at that location if it was a spur of the moment idea? if she knew the person she was waiting for was inside the bar, then why not enter and strike up a conversation?

no one has come forward though to say they had an arranged meeting with JR at that location, and none of the other people that were known to be partying that night have said they organized to catch up later. if she was hoping to find a random bloke from previous nights out at the bar, then surely being inside would offer a better chance of finding the guy? it looks to me like she was either waiting for MM, who was legit (could of been a married man so hesitant to come forward), or waiting for MM who was the CSK, or waiting for someone else who turned out to be the CSK, or (in my opinion a very low probability seeing as no one has come forward in this extent after all these years) she was waiting for someone else unknown that has never come forward. i cant see any other reasons why JR would turn down going home with her friends in favour of standing around in front of a bar.
It might be that the MM had mentioned in the days beforehand he'd be in Claremont, on that night, but not until late.
That was a good point, about the MM may have been married so reluctant to come forward.
What's interesting is JR didn't mentioned anything to her friends. BRE was separated then, but still married.
 

Kurve

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It might be that the MM had mentioned in the days beforehand he'd be in Claremont, on that night, but not until late.
That was a good point, about the MM may have been married so reluctant to come forward.
What's interesting is JR didn't mentioned anything to her friends. BRE was separated then, but still married.
JR was looking down at his hands and I THINK it was more the left one, so she could have been checking to see if he was wearing his wedding ring. I could be way off too but that's how I read it if I assume it was BRE and they'd met before even briefly or casually and there was some interest.
 

one eyed spy

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It might be a legitimate reason for the fibres but he was also the last person to see her alive. Last person to see someone alive is always at the top of the list of suspects. If they knew for a fact she was meeting a Bogsy they'd have honed in on him years (maybe even two decades) earlier, depending on when it was reported to them, hence why I don't believe it happened.
I'm definitely leaning the opposite way to you on the help-v-hinderance factor so the fact it wasn't introduced is neither here nor there for me, but I'm really not sold either way as to it being true.

I think it's a really random thing to suggest if it wasnt said & cant imagine why anyone would make it up, but I dont know her & haven't the slightest idea what her (or anyone else's) motive might be or what they may be hoping to achieve if they did.

Perhaps an orchestrated & strategic plan to get the nickname out publically in case it brought forward more women who had interacted with someone they knew as Bogsy too? I really dont know & we could speculate till the cows come home & never know for sure so I'll stop.

My preference is still to assume Jane was probably expecting to meet up with someone that night though, whoever he was, because it adds perspective for me that was lacking elsewhere in her story as it was told.
If he does exist but had nothing to do with her murder, I don't blame him at all for never coming forward either. You'd be silly not to think long & hard before needlessly implicating yourself in a missing person enquiry, especially if they never specifically appealed for you to come forward & you didn't have anything valueable to add.
 

kingswood71

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"7NEWS has known about this claim for many years but only now can it be legally reported."
How long is "many years" I wonder??
If it was prior to BRE's arrest, there should not have been anything to stop them from announcing this in say 2014: "CSK may have been named Bogsy". And given news agencies propensity to report almost everything, if they had known about it, they would have!
I also think that if it was mentioned well prior to BRE arrest, then how the heck was it not leaked, ever?
 
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Krusty Crab

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It might be a legitimate reason for the fibres but he was also the last person to see her alive. Last person to see someone alive is always at the top of the list of suspects. If they knew for a fact she was meeting a Bogsy they'd have honed in on him years (maybe even two decades) earlier, depending on when it was reported to them, hence why I don't believe it happened.
or they would of hounded weygers/williams to admit their nickname was boggsy
 

Kurve

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page 203 - underpants at the cemetery. the underpants start out as being left by an unknown, and have 1 x male and 1 x female DNA on them. later in the book they have 2 x male DNA on them, then later again they were now left by the murderer. (page 261) so who's DNA was on the underpants, and was the DNA ever compared to BRE? if it matched BRE why was this not allowed at the trail as circumstantial evidence? if it didn't match BRE then how can Bret claim it was left by the murderer when anyone could of put them there?
[/QUOTE]

I noticed there was mention of two male profiles on Ciara's underwear, my understanding was that there wasn't enough of it there to get a full profile. That aside and apart from it serving no real purpose, we can see what a dogs dinner it would have been for Carmel to try and use the underwear in the prosecution.

There's no doubt in my mind that it was BRE who left them there though.
 

Kurve

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Just finished Bret Christians book. Few points of interest I noted below - (if your still reading here's the warning to skip this post). some are simple errors, however errors like the below in my opinion make the book feel rushed, and makes me feel that if small details aren't correct, then can we fully trust the big details?
There being one then two DNA profiles on Ciara's underwear as in Bret's book and it not being clearly explained was a bit disappointing, agree.

I also think even with Bret's book, we've still only got half the story.
 

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Kurve

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I wonder who the woman was at the cemetery. Thinking was it BRE and perhaps Wife2. Could it be likely the pair were having dinner somewhere local to Karrakatta, when the subject of CG came up, initiated by BRE of course. On the way home, he's popped into the cemetery, and perhaps advised, hope your mind is at ease now. Other than that, I can't think of any other explanation. If my husband suddenly wanted to go to the cemetery, alarm bells would be ringing. Visiting a cemetery at night, is so creepy!
Given a witness at trial stating that he 'liked to walk' it might not be seen as unusual if he suggested a walk through the cemetery. They're not off limits at night, anybody can go in as they please. I've been to my family's grave sites in the dark before and there were people going in as I was leaving.
 

Kurve

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Maybe a typo in the trial transcript
"he liked to stalk" ?

Lots of form 'walking' around Huntingdale with frillies on his dikhead and in snow-dropped ladies bedtime attire).
It came up at trial when one of the witnesses said she wasn't sure how BRE got to her place the morning after SS vanished iirc. It seemed to fit in with his prowler persona.
 

Likeamystery

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I can't recall and probably won't look back through it either, but when he supposedly left the underwear at CG grave are they suggesting that he was also with an unknown female during that particular visit or? TIA
The book mentioned a man visited CGs grave several times, and one was with a female. They couldn't see who they were.
 

imho

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snipped :
"with frillies on his dikhead and in snow-dropped ladies bedtime attire"
were they in fact "frilly"?
other than that, there is only one thing i feel a need to say about the intruder wearing knickers on his head, and with regard to the mental image i had always previously pictured, and that being more of the knickers being worn like a party hat atop of his head ... i was notably surprised during the reenactment of the intrusion/assault of "Liz", in her new home, to discover the knickers had been worn more over the face, with the gusset covering his nose, allowing the leg-holes to reveal only his eyes as would a balaklava.


imho
 

Likeamystery

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Has anyone heard of any other serial rapists/killers who have worn underwear on their head and face?
I've read where one serial killer would dress in the victim's underwear and took photos.

The underwear seems so completely desperate - like BRE was fulfilling a fantasy - one that he couldn't act out with a girlfriend.

Also, Liz mentioned he seemed to be stroking her like a cat. It's like BRE became disengaged from reality.
 

zedx

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Question - Stalking Claremont - page 348 - Caporn tells Brett '........there were good reasons for the focus on lance Williams. None of the public knew about his deviant behavior.....' could some one please refresh me re- Lances deviant behavior??
 

JWS2019

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Has anyone heard of any other serial rapists/killers who have worn underwear on their head and face?
I've read where one serial killer would dress in the victim's underwear and took photos.

The underwear seems so completely desperate - like BRE was fulfilling a fantasy - one that he couldn't act out with a girlfriend.

Also, Liz mentioned he seemed to be stroking her like a cat. It's like BRE became disengaged from reality.
Good point and not sure. But it does seem a common trait with disturbed serial killers. (Not to the T but acting out weird stuff)
 

JWS2019

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Question - Stalking Claremont - page 348 - Caporn tells Brett '........there were good reasons for the focus on lance Williams. None of the public knew about his deviant behavior.....' could some one please refresh me re- Lances deviant behavior??
Would be interesting to know. Prior discussions over many years discussed the fact that he must have been doing something. (Don’t want to put down a man that was absolutely crucified for something he did not do) of what we know his behaviour was odd (cruising and picking up gals, for someone that did not go out at night and was a homebody - why out at 1-3am?) and there was potentially things we don’t know.
 

javaguice

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When watching the Sky News documentary last night - Catching the Claremont Killer, the footage of Jane on the CCTV with MM was shown, that was the first time I personally have seen that footage on a TV as such ie: your pretty standard type of lounge room flat screen, previously ive only watched it on my laptop/phone, I don't know if it was just due to the fact that I saw it in a much larger scale for the first time or whether it might have been a much better/clearer version of it (as in one of the versions that they had edited and cleaned up as best as possible when they were going to great lengths over the years) and it was one of those that was used last night or if it was just something else, and the last thing that any of us who have spent many hours researching this case over the years want to do or make a thought process/decision by is with a kind of "placebo effect" type mindset i guess you could say, but honestly after seeing that footage last night and just a couple of little quirks about him/his actions combined with having the benefit of a fair bit more insight to BRE from the trial that we got along with as to what you would think/picture him to be like/perhaps act like/have some characteristics of, from back in that era and at that age I seriously don't think I could be anymore certain than ever now that this was him in that CCTV footage hey! Just IMHO of course.
Gosh... that took a while to get there. 😀

I (think) i fully agree with you.

The mannerisms are so similar. The identikit, so to speak is spot on.

Anyone there on the night would have followed the case. (Apparently) the cops identified everyone in the CCTV except mystery man.

Someone would have come forward if it wasn't BRE.... surely!!
 
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