Current Claremont Murders Discussion & Edwards trial updates pt3 - The Verdict

[Kurve]

Here is
- Claremont Murders - Part One and Part Two
- Media
- The Bunker
- Hey Bret? Stalking Claremont the book.
- Justice Hall's Decision 619 pgs

 

[javaguice]

When watching the Sky News documentary last night - Catching the Claremont Killer, the footage of Jane on the CCTV with MM was shown, that was the first time I personally have seen that footage on a TV as such ie: your pretty standard type of lounge room flat screen, previously ive only watched it on my laptop/phone, I don't know if it was just due to the fact that I saw it in a much larger scale for the first time or whether it might have been a much better/clearer version of it (as in one of the versions that they had edited and cleaned up as best as possible when they were going to great lengths over the years) and it was one of those that was used last night or if it was just something else, and the last thing that any of us who have spent many hours researching this case over the years want to do or make a thought process/decision by is with a kind of "placebo effect" type mindset i guess you could say, but honestly after seeing that footage last night and just a couple of little quirks about him/his actions combined with having the benefit of a fair bit more insight to BRE from the trial that we got along with as to what you would think/picture him to be like/perhaps act like/have some characteristics of, from back in that era and at that age I seriously don't think I could be anymore certain than ever now that this was him in that CCTV footage hey! Just IMHO of course.

Gosh... that took a while to get there.

I (think) i fully agree with you.

The mannerisms are so similar. The identikit, so to speak is spot on.

Anyone there on the night would have followed the case. (Apparently) the cops identified everyone in the CCTV except mystery man.

Someone would have come forward if it wasn't BRE.... surely!!

 

[zedx]

Also previous posters have alluded to this? I am also interested to hear why.

I just don't recall any deviant behavior ever mentioned. Maybe a little odd, but nothing else.

 

[javaguice]

Deviant probably means cruising round claremont offering girls lifts. Living with his parents at his age. Probably had a stash of porn and a tub of Vaseline.

Caporn would have been more Deviant in his sex life.

Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where they walk in on George all oiled up.

 

[zedx]

Deviant probably means cruising round claremont offering girls lifts. Living with his parents at his age. Probably had a stash of porn and a tub of Vaseline.

Caporn would have been more Deviant in his sex life.

Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where they walk in on George all oiled up.

And apparently visiting prostitutes.

 

[Girlnextdoor]

Maybe a typo in the trial transcript
"he liked to stalk" ?

Lots of form 'walking' around Huntingdale (with frillies on his dikhead and in snow-dropped ladies bedtime attire).

Change one consonant in "walk" and I think it explains it best - he liked to wa-k" (hint: rhymes with tank)!

 

[Wombot]

There being one then two DNA profiles on Ciara's underwear as in Bret's book and it not being clearly explained was a bit disappointing, agree.

I also think even with Bret's book, we've still only got half the story.

I think that if BRE was to leave the underwear there, he would have washed it first and then handled it with surgical gloves into a sterile bag and then emptied it there. If BRE left it there, and it’s probable that he did, he would try to be sure that his DNA was not there. If there is male DNA on it could be a red herring, like rubbing the underwear on a discarded drink container he found or something like that.

I doubt that he’d be dumb enough to leave his own DNA there.

 

[Willow weeps]

They needed someone to blame & "odd", "weird" people are easy targets. I've seen men in cars late at night/early hours of the morning cursing the streets & no, not uber drivers. This was happening well before Sarah went missing & still happens now. They no doubt kept records of returning cars during the investigation & LW's came up more than a few time so they targeted him. Autism, being on the spectrum, OCD was not really talked about in the 90s now before when the old school cops were joining the force. They would have scoffed at those medical conditions & blame the parents for not smacking their kids. I think LW had a few conditions but he was crucified for them & he stuck out from so called "normal" people. Only today with new generations, are people beginning to understand autism, anxiety, depression, OCD, PTD, ADHD, many others & talking openly about it. Nobody likes to be labelled "weird". LW didn't stand a chance back then. I'd say the Boomers & silent generations were the worst regarding mental health. "They're faking it, "they're spoiled", "you need to give your kid a good belting to pull them into line", "my kids NEVER acted like that when they were that age". I still hear these lines every day & inwardly groan. You can't judge someone without knowing all the facts. Yeah we were belted good & hard as kids & nobody batted an eye when witnessing it. All it did was create fear. Granted, a hard smack for running onto a busy road would get you belted because your parents were scared you could have been killed & wanted to try & scare you enough to not do it again but there were extremes that some parents went to that weren't justified & would see an uproar from today's parents (rightly so) but these illnesses are real & it's hard enough to function on a daily basis & get through it when you have medical conditions, nobody wants their kids ostracised & left out. LW family obviously knew he had some conditions & being from the silent generation, they would have kept his illnesses to themselves & no doubt ever dared to name his conditions to their extended family or even admit it to themselves for fear of feeling shame but at least, they did the best thing that they could have, they stuck by him & supported him all the way. He deserved better.

 

[one eyed spy]

Also, Liz mentioned he seemed to be stroking her like a cat. It's like BRE became disengaged from reality.

No, no, that was Liz's perception of the incident, shutting it out, not feeling it whilst fighting him back with all she had. He beat the crap out of her. Her face was so swollen it didn't look like her. 2 black eyes. She felt it later.
But yeh, stalking, stealing, wearing, breaking in, assaulting, raping & murdering, I'd suggest he'd lost touch with reality big time. I cant even think of a punishment that comes close to befitting his actions.

 

[one eyed spy]

I just don't recall any deviant behavior ever mentioned. Maybe a little odd, but nothing else.

If your equating the term deviant to sexual deviance, then no, he exhibited none publically. But he was absolutely exhibiting deviant behaviour in general. He came to their attention after circling the block watching one girl 30 times. Thats not usual behaviour. He was described as being on the autism spectrum too & that some police were alarmed by things they observed him doing, so I think being described as deviant is probably somewhat appropriate if compared to your everday Mr Average Random.

 

[Likeamystery]

I think that if BRE was to leave the underwear there, he would have washed it first and then handled it with surgical gloves into a sterile bag and then emptied it there. If BRE left it there, and it’s probable that he did, he would try to be sure that his DNA was not there. If there is male DNA on it could be a red herring, like rubbing the underwear on a discarded drink container he found or something like that.

I doubt that he’d be dumb enough to leave his own DNA there.

It would make sense that he possibly put someone else's DNA on the undies. Attempting to set someone else up.
At home, he probably made use of them, and washed them thoroughly, and as you say handled with surgical gloves and placed in a sterile bag.

Probably why they weren't mentioned as evidence.

If there were any other bits and pieces left at KK other people possibly found them and picked them up. Thinking a child may have picked something up.

 

[Kurve]

I think that if BRE was to leave the underwear there, he would have washed it first and then handled it with surgical gloves into a sterile bag and then emptied it there. If BRE left it there, and it’s probable that he did, he would try to be sure that his DNA was not there. If there is male DNA on it could be a red herring, like rubbing the underwear on a discarded drink container he found or something like that.

I doubt that he’d be dumb enough to leave his own DNA there.

Ciara's DNA was still on the underwear which is how they got confirmation of them being hers and that she'd handled them before she died three years earlier. It doesn't appear he washed them.

 

[zedx]

If your equating the term deviant to sexual deviance, then no, he exhibited none publically. But he was absolutely exhibiting deviant behaviour in general. He came to their attention after circling the block watching one girl 30 times. Thats not usual behaviour. He was described as being on the autism spectrum too & that some police were alarmed by things they observed him doing, so I think being described as deviant is probably somewhat appropriate if compared to your everday Mr Average Random.

I can understand why some ( at the time ) may have believed he was exhibiting 'deviant behaviour in general', but in hind sight and with the knowledge of his issues, we now can understand that his behaviour was due to his condition and not deviant. Just wish they had taken a little more time to understand. I feel it is really unkind of Capehorn to refer to LW's behaviour as 'deviant', after everything we know and to have those words published in a book for all to see very unfair.

 

[zedx]

They needed someone to blame & "odd", "weird" people are easy targets. I've seen men in cars late at night/early hours of the morning cursing the streets & no, not uber drivers. This was happening well before Sarah went missing & still happens now. They no doubt kept records of returning cars during the investigation & LW's came up more than a few time so they targeted him. Autism, being on the spectrum, OCD was not really talked about in the 90s now before when the old school cops were joining the force. They would have scoffed at those medical conditions & blame the parents for not smacking their kids. I think LW had a few conditions but he was crucified for them & he stuck out from so called "normal" people. Only today with new generations, are people beginning to understand autism, anxiety, depression, OCD, PTD, ADHD, many others & talking openly about it. Nobody likes to be labelled "weird". LW didn't stand a chance back then. I'd say the Boomers & silent generations were the worst regarding mental health. "They're faking it, "they're spoiled", "you need to give your kid a good belting to pull them into line", "my kids NEVER acted like that when they were that age". I still hear these lines every day & inwardly groan. You can't judge someone without knowing all the facts. Yeah we were belted good & hard as kids & nobody batted an eye when witnessing it. All it did was create fear. Granted, a hard smack for running onto a busy road would get you belted because your parents were scared you could have been killed & wanted to try & scare you enough to not do it again but there were extremes that some parents went to that weren't justified & would see an uproar from today's parents (rightly so) but these illnesses are real & it's hard enough to function on a daily basis & get through it when you have medical conditions, nobody wants their kids ostracised & left out. LW family obviously knew he had some conditions & being from the silent generation, they would have kept his illnesses to themselves & no doubt ever dared to name his conditions to their extended family or even admit it to themselves for fear of feeling shame but at least, they did the best thing that they could have, they stuck by him & supported him all the way. He deserved better.

Good observation !! You are so right, it has taken years for the powers 'that be' to recognise these conditions, but sadly they are still, at times, misunderstood today. Back in the 70's my brother was diagnosed with ADHD and Dyslexia, he went through hell, as immediately after the diagnosis the school sent him off to the local disabled school !! My Mother fought tooth and nail with the education department to get him out of there and have him returned to his original school. The education department, at the time did not recognise Dyslexia. Luckily it did reach the ears of some who did understand all he needed was some extra help. He can now read and write, but texting him can be troublesome as he doesn't always understand exactly what you are trying to say and often I have had to ring him and explain !!
I also have an adult friend who used to help out at a community kids sports group his son attended ( his wife also coached there ). He was accused of sexual harassment by one adult and it then snow balled into a witch hunt !! He has ADHD and is on the Autism spectrum, as is his son. As president of the club, i witnessed all the 'situations' and at no time could they be considered 'sexual'. I fought to have this shut down, which I did , but suggested it best he leave as his behavior was over the top ie; always 'jesting' with the kids, unexpectantly poking them in the back to make them 'jump' ( he was accused of poking a girl on her bralette ), throwing things at the kids (the ball hit the girl in the head and then bounced down her shirt thus coming in contact with her breasts) and similar silly accusations. He was hyper all the time like an every-ready battery, he is now on medication. It was really sad for his family and the kids at the center as they could not understand the parents carry on.

 

[Wombot]

Ciara's DNA was still on the underwear which is how they got confirmation of them being hers and that she'd handled them before she died three years earlier. It doesn't appear he washed them.

Oh, you’re right. Well that is curious.

The only thing I can think of then is that when he took Ciara’s bag, he didn’t pay attention to the underwear. That does seem strange for him though. Maybe he only had interest in underwear that he could wear and the size was too small for him.

 

[javaguice]

Yeah it'd be nice to know who else's DNA was on it.

I still struggle to see how bres DNA wasn't on it if ciaras still was. Gloves when leaving them at cemetery? Probably left it there at night

Wouldn't surprise me if he did it to fu** with the cops and or family. We all know from the clown videos that he likes that he has a pretty warped sense of humour

 

[zedx]

Yeah it'd be nice to know who else's DNA was on it.

I still struggle to see how bres DNA wasn't on it if ciaras still was. Gloves when leaving them at cemetery? Probably left it there at night

Wouldn't surprise me if he did it to fu** with the cops and or family. We all know from the clown videos that he likes that he has a pretty warped sense of humour

It would be interesting to know if he left the underwear there (if it was him) when he was sighted with the female, as that would then implicate the female.

 

[Willow weeps]

Good observation !! You are so right, it has taken years for the powers 'that be' to recognise these conditions, but sadly they are still, at times, misunderstood today. Back in the 70's my brother was diagnosed with ADHD and Dyslexia, he went through hell, as immediately after the diagnosis the school sent him off to the local disabled school !! My Mother fought tooth and nail with the education department to get him out of there and have him returned to his original school. The education department, at the time did not recognise Dyslexia. Luckily it did reach the ears of some who did understand all he needed was some extra help. He can now read and write, but texting him can be troublesome as he doesn't always understand exactly what you are trying to say and often I have had to ring him and explain !!
I also have an adult friend who used to help out at a community kids sports group his son attended ( his wife also coached there ). He was accused of sexual harassment by one adult and it then snow balled into a witch hunt !! He has ADHD and is on the Autism spectrum, as is his son. As president of the club, i witnessed all the 'situations' and at no time could they be considered 'sexual'. I fought to have this shut down, which I did , but suggested it best he leave as his behavior was over the top ie; always 'jesting' with the kids, unexpectantly poking them in the back to make them 'jump' ( he was accused of poking a girl on her bralette ), throwing things at the kids (the ball hit the girl in the head and then bounced down her shirt thus coming in contact with her breasts) and similar silly accusations. He was hyper all the time like an every-ready battery, he is now on medication. It was really sad for his family and the kids at the center as they could not understand the parents carry on.

I love & dislike this for all the right reasons. I didn't know they could diagnose ADHD back in the 70s & then look how it took another 3 decades for it to be more common & well known. I'm so glad your mum fought for your brother, he'd have received the worst kind of education if any at all in those places back then. I no longer judge a parent with a screaming kid in the shops. I don't know the story & autism can cause the most heartbreaking meltdowns. That would have been hard for you to have to ask the father to step down knowing what you do about the conditions. Hell, even Fonzy had dyslexia & I love that Henry Winkler talks so openly about it .Your family is awesome & you were all awesome before it was more widely known.

 

[javaguice]

It would be interesting to know if he left the underwear there (if it was him) when he was sighted with the female, as that would then implicate the female.

Yeah I would seriously doubt it... red flag for sure. I reckon he went with the 2nd wife when spotted due to restaurant link, at her request but eagerly encouraged by him.

Even creepier to think, but maybe she would talk about ciara and he would suggest going to visit the grave.

Reckon the underwear thing would have been late at night on his own... imagine him getting pinged by the cops for doing that sort of thing.

He isn't a criminal mastermind but he isn't stupid

 

[Likeamystery]

Oh, you’re right. Well that is curious.

The only thing I can think of then is that when he took Ciara’s bag, he didn’t pay attention to the underwear. That does seem strange for him though. Maybe he only had interest in underwear that he could wear and the size was too small for him.

The underwear doesn't actually have to fit his body, they just need to fit his head. I know it sounds odd, but we are talking about BRE - who's very, very odd.

He probably wore the undies on his head - might explain why there was minimal DNA. Once the underwear is worn on the head there would only be contact with the nose. There would be no DNA, unless he sneezed. If there were any hairs from his head, he probably just removed them.

He doesn't use the undies for what you're thinking of, he uses the sandwich bags for that.

 

[imho]

It would make sense that he possibly put someone else's DNA on the undies. Attempting to set someone else up.
At home, he probably made use of them, and washed them thoroughly, and as you say handled with surgical gloves and placed in a sterile bag.

Probably why they weren't mentioned as evidence.

If there were any other bits and pieces left at KK other people possibly found them and picked them up. Thinking a child may have picked something up.

it would have to be a given that the DNA was tested and clearly NOT a match to BRE, otherwise it would definitely have been raised at trial in cementing his prosecution.

here, some random thoughts,
recalling BRE has not ever plead guilt to the murders,
again consider the possibility of him having not acted alone?
OR the possibility of there being someone who did have intimate knowledge of BRE's actual offending to which he eventually plead guilt ; a 'person' who knew him well enough, or who, either by eg. mateship or work, was at some stage in a close enough proximity to have gathered a stray bodily sample (eg, flaky skin, a fallen scab) which was procured and later applied to ciara prior to her discovery, to setup BRE for a murder that they their self had committed? perhaps simply because they despised BRE, or because their insertion of a scapegoat into the mix would enable them to forge ahead in comfort of feeling that their own crime(s) would never be traced back to them, most especially if the crime were to be linked to someone whom they knew to be responsible for the other, later guilt plead huntingdale crimes for which there may have also been some history of extortion?
and what of the possibility of that person being whoever later deposited her undies at the cemetery, and of them (an evidence tamperer) perhaps not realising that touch DNA alone would one day be traceable?
IF there was any possibility of this mastermind type of scenario, that person would have to be by FAR more evil and conniving than BRE ...

IF an appeal is lodged, to my way of thinking, an obvious likely starting point would be identification of the male DNA found on the underwear at ciara's grave.
imho

 

[Girlnextdoor]

Oh, you’re right. Well that is curious.

The only thing I can think of then is that when he took Ciara’s bag, he didn’t pay attention to the underwear. That does seem strange for him though. Maybe he only had interest in underwear that he could wear and the size was too small for him.

Or was he teasing the Cops, Wombat? I often wondered if he was sending things to Cops over the years, as other SKs, have done?

 

[javaguice]

it would have to be a given that the DNA was tested and clearly NOT a match to BRE, otherwise it would definitely have been raised at trial in cementing his prosecution.

here, some random thoughts,
recalling BRE has not ever plead guilt to the murders,
again consider the possibility of him having not acted alone?
OR the possibility of there being someone who did have intimate knowledge of BRE's actual offending to which he eventually plead guilt ; a 'person' who knew him well enough, or who, either by eg. mateship or work, was at some stage in a close enough proximity to have gathered a stray bodily sample (eg, flaky skin, a fallen scab) which was procured and later applied to ciara prior to her discovery, to setup BRE for a murder that they their self had committed? perhaps simply because they despised BRE, or because their insertion of a scapegoat into the mix would enable them to forge ahead in comfort of feeling that their own crime(s) would never be traced back to them, most especially if the crime were to be linked to someone whom they knew to be responsible for the other, later guilt plead huntingdale crimes for which there may have also been some history of extortion?
and what of the possibility of that person being whoever later deposited her undies at the cemetery, and of them (an evidence tamperer) perhaps not realising that touch DNA alone would one day be traceable?
IF there was any possibility of this mastermind type of scenario, that person would have to be by FAR more evil and conniving than BRE ...

IF an appeal is lodged, to my way of thinking, an obvious likely starting point would be identification of the male DNA found on the underwear at ciara's grave.
imho

Its crazy enough that it might work. Is that you, Brad?

 

[Likeamystery]

Or was he teasing the Cops, Wombat? I often wondered if he was sending things to Cops over the years, as other SKs, have done?

That might be why Macro asked Lance William's brother, does Lance like to dress in women's clothing. BRE may possibly have sent women's clothing to the police, to taunt them.

it would have to be a given that the DNA was tested and clearly NOT a match to BRE, otherwise it would definitely have been raised at trial in cementing his prosecution.

here, some random thoughts,
recalling BRE has not ever plead guilt to the murders,
again consider the possibility of him having not acted alone?
OR the possibility of there being someone who did have intimate knowledge of BRE's actual offending to which he eventually plead guilt ; a 'person' who knew him well enough, or who, either by eg. mateship or work, was at some stage in a close enough proximity to have gathered a stray bodily sample (eg, flaky skin, a fallen scab) which was procured and later applied to ciara prior to her discovery, to setup BRE for a murder that they their self had committed? perhaps simply because they despised BRE, or because their insertion of a scapegoat into the mix would enable them to forge ahead in comfort of feeling that their own crime(s) would never be traced back to them, most especially if the crime were to be linked to someone whom they knew to be responsible for the other, later guilt plead huntingdale crimes for which there may have also been some history of extortion?
and what of the possibility of that person being whoever later deposited her undies at the cemetery, and of them (an evidence tamperer) perhaps not realising that touch DNA alone would one day be traceable?
IF there was any possibility of this mastermind type of scenario, that person would have to be by FAR more evil and conniving than BRE ...

IF an appeal is lodged, to my way of thinking, an obvious likely starting point would be identification of the male DNA found on the underwear at ciara's grave.
imho

I'd never really considered an accomplice to the abduction and murders, but someone may have clicked on to something. The other incidents which were thought to be linked prior to the murders didn't mention another person being present. Except the KK rape victim who advised hearing him (I think) either talking to someone else or mumbling to himself. On the night Ciara was abducted one witness mentioned seeing someone waving, which seemed odd. Also, on the night SS disappeared, beforehand someone had been looked at suspiciously near HJs (I can't remember the details). There was also the theory that the large money withdrawals might have been payment for bribery.

One of my family, knows someone who worked for Telstra. Whilst WAPOL were there, after the arrest, they kept on interviewing one of the employees. It was a man who had worked with BRE during the murders. WAPOL kept going back and interviewing him. It wasn't Cook because he'd left by then. There was an identikit of a man which wasn't BRE too.

There's also the thought, of the Madora Bay beach house. The possibility trophies were stashed there, and a family member stumbling across them. As the undies had initials on them, it wouldn't have taken long to figure out who's they were. As BRE liked to discuss the CSK case, I can imagine him possibly discussing what was taken from the victims.

BREs brother didn't go to any of the court days. I'm not suggesting he had anything to do with any of the incidents, just odd he didn't go, just once. Perhaps they had a falling out at one stage.

Addition: Was there mention of Ciara having two lots of male DNA.

 

[zedx]

I love & dislike this for all the right reasons. I didn't know they could diagnose ADHD back in the 70s & then look how it took another 3 decades for it to be more common & well known. I'm so glad your mum fought for your brother, he'd have received the worst kind of education if any at all in those places back then. I no longer judge a parent with a screaming kid in the shops. I don't know the story & autism can cause the most heartbreaking meltdowns. That would have been hard for you to have to ask the father to step down knowing what you do about the conditions. Hell, even Fonzy had dyslexia & I love that Henry Winkler talks so openly about it .Your family is awesome & you were all awesome before it was more widely known.

My brother was most likely diagnosed with severe ' Hyper- activitie' rather than ADHD - sorry my bad - it was such a long time ago- so can't remember clearly !!

 

[imho]

snipped
I'd never really considered an accomplice to the abduction and murders, but someone may have clicked on to something. The other incidents which were thought to be linked prior to the murders didn't mention another person being present. Except the KK rape victim who advised hearing him (I think) either talking to someone else or mumbling to himself. On the night Ciara was abducted one witness mentioned seeing someone waving, which seemed odd. Also, on the night SS disappeared, beforehand someone had been looked at suspiciously near HJs (I can't remember the details). There was also the theory that the large money withdrawals might have been payment for bribery.

One of my family, knows someone who worked for Telstra. Whilst WAPOL were there, after the arrest, they kept on interviewing one of the employees. It was a man who had worked with BRE during the murders. WAPOL kept going back and interviewing him. It wasn't Cook because he'd left by then. There was an identikit of a man which wasn't BRE too.

There's also the thought, of the Madora Bay beach house. The possibility trophies were stashed there, and a family member stumbling across them. As the undies had initials on them, it wouldn't have taken long to figure out who's they were. As BRE liked to discuss the CSK case, I can imagine him possibly discussing what was taken from the victims.

BREs brother didn't go to any of the court days. I'm not suggesting he had anything to do with any of the incidents, just odd he didn't go, just once. Perhaps they had a falling out at one stage.

Addition: Was there mention of Ciara having two lots of male DNA.

from memory, there may well have been mention by a victorian pathologist, of a possible, partial, secondary male DNA.
but IF there WAS a murderous, evidence tampering, extortionist entity with intimate knowledge of BRE and his huntingdale offences, i won't disregard the possibility of any forthcoming discovery of trophies at a location related to BRE, such as madora bay, having also possibly been put into action by sheer, mastermind evil.

in regard to variance in response from any of team BRE ; myself being intimately connected to a family who have trodden a very similar path due to the actions of one of its members, i have witnessed firsthand, the full course of their individual reactions, the fluctuation in each's level of support due to both the deconstruction of their personal belief systems, and subsequent impacts on their own lives.
being close enough to experience the pain associated with their coming to terms with the reality of the matter, my outlook to teamBRE is empathic, and the wonderers should accept any variance as being no more than one stretch of a journey that will have no end.
imho