Current Claremont Murders Discussion & Edwards trial updates pt3 - The Verdict

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megadeth86

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Nine reports that Denise Glennon is sobbing in court now :(
BRE no reaction
I knew her, but not very well. A large group of teenagers used to hang about in the area around Len Shearer Reserve, Booragoon, about 1984-85, including yours truly and sometimes DG. Very sad for what has happened.
 
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megadeth86

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Just on Sarah Spiers, I hate that he was labelled Not Guilty.

They need a new term, something like Not Proven or Not Proven Guilty, something that says we know the tosser did it, we just can’t prove it.
Scottish law has a not proven verdict but you know Australia has always been ruled primarily by the English so a Scottish idea wouldn't get a look in.
 

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BonzaRam

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Yes, I don't fully get where BRE's rage came from - he appeared to have had a stable nuclear family, Dad had a stable job, he had a house and garden in a reasonable suburb. Did anyone on here know him in high-school? Was he bullied or something?
Psychopaths are born psychopaths so for them rage is a norm when triggered. Sociopaths are created, meaning they are caused by trauma (head injuries, illnesses, abuse in its many forms, etc... so the question is is he a psychopath or a sociopath?

I am leaning towards psychopath seen as his psychosis was being played out at an early age and there doesn't seem to be any trauma events in his early life that would indicate developing sociopathy.
 

JWS2019

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Psychopaths are born psychopaths so for them rage is a norm when triggered. Sociopaths are created, meaning they are caused by trauma (head injuries, illnesses, abuse in its many forms, etc... so the question is is he a psychopath or a sociopath?

I am leaning towards psychopath seen as his psychosis was being played out at an early age and there doesn't seem to be any trauma events in his early life that would indicate developing sociopathy.
Well said thank you for your insights and I think add in his police interview - this totally fits with psychopath.
 

zedx

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Psychopaths are born psychopaths so for them rage is a norm when triggered. Sociopaths are created, meaning they are caused by trauma (head injuries, illnesses, abuse in its many forms, etc... so the question is is he a psychopath or a sociopath?

I am leaning towards psychopath seen as his psychosis was being played out at an early age and there doesn't seem to be any trauma events in his early life that would indicate developing sociopathy.
No incidents that we know of. Children can hide the most horrific things due to fear. ie;- 20 years ago, we found out our 50 year old male friend (as a 10 year old) had been raped an several occasions in his families garden shed, by a senior Police Detective who was a friend of his father's who also was a senior Detective. This man was a regular visitor to the family home, attending BBQ's and birthdays. Said friend was too scared to say anything as the lives of his family were threatened by this man. This answered many questions relating to his health issues over the years. Very sad.
 

BonzaRam

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No incidents that we know of. Children can hide the most horrific things due to fear. ie;- 20 years ago, we found out our 50 year old male friend (as a 10 year old) had been raped an several occasions in his families garden shed, by a senior Police Detective who was a friend of his father's who also was a senior Detective. This man was a regular visitor to the family home, attending BBQ's and birthdays. Said friend was too scared to say anything as the lives of his family were threatened by this man. This answered many questions relating to his health issues over the years. Very sad.
Geez, i have heard of too many stories like that over the years and there is always some sort of threat made to force silence.

In regards to BRE, as it stands we know very little about him or his past except what was exposed during the trial. That is why i am leaning towards psychopath. We may get more info about his past as he is analyzed more in his new home that may change that but it will be a long time coming if there is anything there. Many victims of abuse don't speak up until the perpetrator is deceased.

There are a few other reasons i lean towards psychopathy and they are mainly due to his actions during the trial, as opposed to his actions for being on trial, namely sociopaths tend to have some form of conscience and a show of remorse, albeit a small show. That could be because they have experienced the trauma they have instilled on others and relate to its harmfulness to themselves. We saw no hint of any of that from BRE during the trial.

Psychopaths do not, they have no conscience or remorse, which we seen in BRE during the trial.

Both types fall under the label of APD (Anti-social Personality Disorder) which is described as someone who has no regard for others rights or feelings. I should point out that both psychopaths and sociopaths are not necessarily the violent type so that in itself is not considered a sign of either. An example of passive APDs are literally many politicians - they tell you what your rights are and they lord their power over everyone, it takes a special personality to want to do that to start with...
 

the dark knight

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BFew

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Was Bradley a big mouth?
There's nothing in those posts that says that it was Bradley claimedly on that September 2016 Sydney to Perth Flight.

If it was BRE on that plane, you'd think that either of the 2 posters you refer to, would have most likely made it clear that it was BRE on that plane, even if it was not BRE with the big mouth in that instance (i.e it was whoever Bradley was talking with/to, that had the big and/or inebriated mouth).

Taking a look at what AFL matches were on in September 2016 that BRE might have gone to around Jun - Sep 2016.
(assuming that the 2nd poster got the right month and was not just carelessly guessing the month, because the original poster posted in Sep 2020 and referred to 'just over 4 years ago', which could mean something like 48-51 months prior to an unknown date sometime during Sep 2020)

BRE and some of his family were West Coast member's at that time.
West Coast finished 6th on the ladder, Sydney Swans 1st, GWS 4th
West Coast were knocked out in the 1st week of the finals at a home game in Perth against the Western Bulldogs who went on to beat Sydney Swans in the Grand Final.
The next 2 rounds of the finals saw 2 games in Sydney (17 and 24 September 2016) that BRE might have gone to watch with any friends who were either Adelaide, Sydney Swans, GWS, or Western Bulldogs supporters, or just gone to watch either games combined with a trip to Sydney for other reasons.

For AFL games between West Coast and either Sydney Swans or GWS, in Sydney in the 2016 Season there were two of them.

With West Coast beating GWS by only 1 point at Spotless Stadium (inside Sydney Olympic Park) on 13 August 2016,
could this have seen BRE have one too many celebratory drinks during/after the game or on the at least 5 hour flight home?

If BRE was at that GWS game, with the crowd so small (10,385) he might even be visible on a match replay.
Saturday, 23 April (1:45 pm)
Sydney 12.16 (88)
def.West Coast 7.7 (49)SCG (crowd: 35,427)

Saturday, 13 August (4:35 pm)def. byWest Coast 14.13 (97)Spotless Stadium (crowd: 10,385)
 
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sprockets

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sprockets

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Not necessarily.

There might have been a very good reason why it might have involved something, a sensitive situation, or someone(s) that needed to be suppressed, and was successfully suppressed.
Not buying it, there's no mention of suppression of evidence anywhere during the trial, the only suppressions were witness names. The judge gave his reasons for his verdict.
 

BFew

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Not buying it, there's no mention of suppression of evidence anywhere during the trial, the only suppressions were witness names. The judge gave his reasons for his verdict.
What if it was something like some retired coppers from the Huntingdale Stalker days, having a chat about whether a certain Kimono that was left behind was ever found and DNA tested, just on the off chance that the bloke that dropped it turned out to be the CSK. And this is what led to a hunt to specifically find the Kimono in the WAPOL evidence archives? Why would everything about how the Kimono was found, be needed to be revealed in public at the trial?

Something like the above scenario, might matter to us, WAPOL, Department of Justice, the WA Government, and the families of the victims of BRE, but it's not the sort of thing that is going to make one iota of difference as to whether BRE was convicted or not.

Not all suppression of information related to a case is done via way of suppression orders.
I never used the phrase "suppression order" in my post you commented on. Just the word "suppressed".
 

sprockets

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What if it was something like some retired coppers from the Huntingdale Stalker days, having a chat about whether a certain Kimono that was left behind was ever found and DNA tested, just on the off chance that the bloke that dropped it turned out to be the CSK. And this is what led to a hunt to specifically find the Kimono in the WAPOL evidence archives? Why would everything about how the Kimono was found, be needed to be revealed in public at the trial?

Something like the above scenario, might matter to us, WAPOL, Department of Justice, the WA Government, and the families of the victims of BRE, but it's not the sort of thing that is going to make one iota of difference as to whether BRE was convicted or not.

Not all suppression of information related to a case is done via way of suppression orders.
I never used the phrase "suppression order" in my post you commented on. Just the word "suppressed".
So the coppers on the plane thought the kimono might be important evidence in the Claremont case... Why did they think it was important evidence? If they thought it was important evidence what did they do about it? If they didn't know it was important evidence how would the girl listening to them know it was? Even then, she'd just be passing on info to the police that they already had, wouldn't she? However, we know how the kimono came about being tested, it was stated in the evidence at trial.

PS. I never mentioned 'suppression orders' either :p
 

javaguice

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It's all feasible.... kimono tested November 2016. Tested for who knows what reason.

More details would be good. If she's pissed off at wapol here is as good a spot to vent as any...

Get her in here!!
 

BFew

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So the coppers on the plane thought the kimono might be important evidence in the Claremont case... Why did they think it was important evidence? If they thought it was important evidence what did they do about it? If they didn't know it was important evidence how would the girl listening to them know it was? Even then, she'd just be passing on info to the police that they already had, wouldn't she? However, we know how the kimono came about being tested, it was stated in the evidence at trial.

PS. I never mentioned 'suppression orders' either :p
For starters, here's an example of something alleged that might have been considered as somewhat embarrassing and damaging to the credibility of WA Police, about how the kimono came about being tested. If the bit below related to where they found the Kimono, was mentioned at either pre-trial or trial, where the media and public were party to hearing what was said or presented on screen, then it appears that all of the media (bar the one I have quoted below) probably suppressed reporting it in either subsequent media tweets, blogs, social media posts, news articles, podcasts, or books (like Tim Clarke's CSK one, where his employer was the publisher).

Furthermore, you'd have thought that after Bret Christian published the below on 20 January 2021, that at least one of the other media journalists would have publicly quoted or discussed where Bret claims WA Police ended up finding the Kimono evidence. To be fair, maybe one of them did, and then it was quickly pulled by them or their editors. But giving how no-one (including the media, WA Police, or ex-WA Police has publicly come out and refuted what Bret has claimed below, it's more likely than not, a fairly accurate claim, probably from one of his many credible Police sources.

Anyone have any credible theories as to why none of the other media appears to have touched this part of Bret's claim with a ten foot barge pole?
(apart from self-suppression of not wanting to get offside with those that they rely on for much of their info for their crime reporting).

Finally, were WA Police to now publicly confirm what Bret writes what below, it would likely lead to questions about what else they might be hiding about this case, and whether what Bret claims about how and where the Kimono was found misfiled with the Operation Jackhammer evidence (Jack Van Tongeren and friends) was provided to the Prosecution (and Justice Dept), Defence, Trial Judge, and the accused, pre-trial.

Towards the end of 2015, Commissioner O’Callaghan quietly ramped up the resources of the State Crime Operations Team (State Ops). State Ops was learning on the job and refining its techniques. Yet any link between less-serious historic Claremont crimes and the serial murders remained out of reach. State Ops was having some great wins, but it had also exhausted its trawl of relevant, historic crimes in and around Claremont, details of which Special Crime had sent its brother squad. Towards the end of 2016, State Ops members decided to take another look at the leftovers – old, unsolved crimes committed far from the urban village of Claremont. State Ops went to PRESS (Property Receival and Exhibit Storage Section) to delve into a long-ago sealed storage tub marked Operation Jackhammer. When they opened it, they found a trove of old evidence: boxes and bags from the 1980s. In the clean room, they were surprised to unearth a series of old records of unsolved cases, misfiled under the name Peter Joseph ‘Jack’ van Tongeren. It turned out to be a goldmine. Jack van Tongeren, a name familiar to West Australians in the 1980s, was a man who had struck terror into Perth’s Asian population, especially those who owned restaurants. Born in 1947, Van Tongeren was a violent neo-Nazi leading a gang of white supremacists. They operated mostly in Perth’s southeastern suburbs, the Gosnells-Huntingdale area. In 1989, van Tongeren began a thirteen-year jail sentence for theft and arson, after robbing and firebombing restaurants owned by Asian people. The thefts were aimed at raising funds to run his Australian Nationalist Movement, a terror organisation warning Asians to stay away from Australia. State Crime Ops detectives found a series of crime files had been incorrectly put in the Jackhammer box, perhaps by someone who had wrongly linked other crimes in the southeastern suburbs to those committed nearby by van Tongeren and his crew. In the box were the records of a series of unsolved thefts and sexually motivated break-ins around the neighbouring suburbs of Huntingdale and Southern River, close to an hour’s drive from Claremont.
(Source: Christian, Bret. Stalking Claremont (pp. 267-268). ABC Books. 20 January 2021 Kindle Edition.)
 

BFew

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Towards the end of 2015, Commissioner O’Callaghan quietly ramped up the resources of the State Crime Operations Team (State Ops). State Ops was learning on the job and refining its techniques. Yet any link between less-serious historic Claremont crimes and the serial murders remained out of reach. State Ops was having some great wins, but it had also exhausted its trawl of relevant, historic crimes in and around Claremont, details of which Special Crime had sent its brother squad. Towards the end of 2016, State Ops members decided to take another look at the leftovers – old, unsolved crimes committed far from the urban village of Claremont. State Ops went to PRESS (Property Receival and Exhibit Storage Section) to delve into a long-ago sealed storage tub marked Operation Jackhammer. When they opened it, they found a trove of old evidence: boxes and bags from the 1980s. In the clean room, they were surprised to unearth a series of old records of unsolved cases, misfiled under the name Peter Joseph ‘Jack’ van Tongeren. It turned out to be a goldmine. Jack van Tongeren, a name familiar to West Australians in the 1980s, was a man who had struck terror into Perth’s Asian population, especially those who owned restaurants. Born in 1947, Van Tongeren was a violent neo-Nazi leading a gang of white supremacists. They operated mostly in Perth’s southeastern suburbs, the Gosnells-Huntingdale area. In 1989, van Tongeren began a thirteen-year jail sentence for theft and arson, after robbing and firebombing restaurants owned by Asian people. The thefts were aimed at raising funds to run his Australian Nationalist Movement, a terror organisation warning Asians to stay away from Australia. State Crime Ops detectives found a series of crime files had been incorrectly put in the Jackhammer box, perhaps by someone who had wrongly linked other crimes in the southeastern suburbs to those committed nearby by van Tongeren and his crew. In the box were the records of a series of unsolved thefts and sexually motivated break-ins around the neighbouring suburbs of Huntingdale and Southern River, close to an hour’s drive from Claremont.
(Source: Christian, Bret. Stalking Claremont (pp. 267-268). ABC Books. 20 January 2021 Kindle Edition.)
Just a reminder to readers of this thread (old and new), that on subsequent pages of his book, Bret Christian claimed that the Kimono was not the only crucial BRE/CSK related evidence found in that Operation Jackhammer 'tub'. There were the all important Police files, and likely culprit fingerprints from the various Huntingdale home invasions, assaults, break-ins and burglaries very close to where BRE lived at the time, including the all important finger-prints that were subsequently matched (in 2016) to BRE's 1990 Hollywood Hospital Assault fingerprints.

The kimono crime and others police thought were connected to the Southside Rapist remained unsolved. That file was marked ‘offender not identified’; the kimono was boxed up, stored in the Jackhammer tub, and forgotten for twenty-eight years. This meant police had no offender to match to the kimono, which held a clear identifier of one man, the man police now knew to be the same individual who had attacked both Lisa and Ciara Glennon.
Forensic supervisor Colin Beck delved back into the Jackhammer box. He found even more misplaced files, containing details of a series of other break-ins and burglaries in Gay Street, a feeder road connecting Huntingdale with Southern River and surrounding streets. The team trawled the home invasion details and compiled a list. In one Gay Street burglary file, State Ops found four fingerprint lifts that had been taken from a sliding door of a Huntingdale house, the scene of a burglary. Three of them did not match any print from any other unsolved burglary in the area.
With mounting excitement, the detectives ran these prints through the national automated fingerprint database. Jackpot, again. They were identical to prints police had taken from a man in 1990, two years after the kimono crime, and five years before Lisa was abducted. These Gay Street prints matched the prints taken from a man arrested after police rushed to the scene of a reported daylight assault at Hollywood Hospital, in a suburb next to Claremont. Those prints belonged to a young Telecom technician, who was charged with assaulting a forty-year-old palliative care grief counsellor on May 7, 1990. The tech had been assigned by
....
Twenty-six years after they had been left on the sliding door of a Huntingdale house, Special Ops detectives ran a digitised copy of those prints through their database, and got a hit. A perfect match to the prints of the man who had jumped the hospital worker. Police pulled the Hollywood attack record of the owner of those fingerprints and saw what had eluded them for so long. Now, at last, they had a name: Bradley Robert Edwards.

(Christian, Bret. Stalking Claremont (p. 270-274). ABC Books. 20 January 2021 Kindle Edition.)
 

BFew

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Why would WAPOL be stalking the informer?
Not hard to fathom that what some people perceive or liken to 'stalking', is sometimes nothing more than bog standard Private Investigator, or Police/law enforcement/investigator covert or overt digital or physical surveillance.

But at this point, if you take off the tunnel vision hat, there are other possibilities of who might have been doing surveillance (if anyone), if they got wind that someone had overhead something that was likely related to the CSK case, and possibly other cases.
 

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