Current Claremont Murders Discussion & Edwards trial updates pt3 - The Verdict

[Kurve]

Here is
- Claremont Murders - Part One and Part Two
- Media
- The Bunker
- Hey Bret? Stalking Claremont the book.
- Justice Hall's Decision 619 pgs

 

[Kurve]

SNAP! I was just looking at a photo of him from a video showing him loading up stuff in his garage. I saved it so I'll upload it here. Shows his slightly turned right foot.

That's where I first noticed it but there's another picture of him as well, it MIGHT be on the awards night where he looks like he's favouring one side and also at LA on the field where one foot is turning out.

I actually tried enlarging to see if I could spot any noticeable lopsided wear in the heels of his runners.

 

[ms finch]

SNAP! I was just looking at a photo of him from a video showing him loading up stuff in his garage. I saved it so I'll upload it here. Shows his slightly turned right foot.

I remember ages ago on a forum we had a human gait analyst who analysed BRE walking in the video and then said it matched the gait of a guy on the MM video!! All that disappeared, as far as I can see, in unless someone has it stored away (paging BFew, paging BFew?)

Anyone remember what I'm waffling on about?
(I've copied as best I can but you need to hit download and then open on it, sorry not good at this!)

Gait analysis - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

BBM - Yes! I remember that! I had completely forgotten about it until you brought it up. It really increased my belief that Edwards could be MM. Walks are so distinguishable. They are like a fingerprint.

ETA:

The reason I am not completely convinced is because I need a bit more information. I’d like to ask the expert whether the quality and amount of footage has any impact on their judgement, and whether there may be issues judging given the age difference between Edwards as MM and Edwards when other footage became available. I’d also need to know how long Edwards has walked that way - if he had an injury that impacted his gait, when that happened.

There is the note in the verdict of the workplace incident on 9 April 1996, but annoyingly no details of that.

Honestly I have driven myself mad about the MM situation. I can argue it both ways endlessly and never reach a firm conclusion.

 

[Kurve]

There is the note in the verdict of the workplace incident on 9 April 1996, but annoyingly no details of that.

Sorry to pick just one part out of your post like this, its not picking but I'm not sure this particular workplace 'incident' means 'accident' where he acquired an injury/disability to be covered by workers comp? I'm a bit confused.

There is a record in the personnel file of the accused of some workplace incidents he had been involved in. The accused sustained an injury at work on 9 April 1996. Telstra does not hold any records relating to the accused's assault on WD on 7 May 1990.283

I hope someone is digging into this, Bret maybe.

 

[Girlnextdoor]

That's where I first noticed it but there's another picture of him as well, it MIGHT be on the awards night where he looks like he's favouring one side and also at LA on the field where one foot is turning out.

I actually tried enlarging to see if I could spot any noticeable lopsided wear in the heels of his runners.

Well after much looking looking, I found this! So many photos seem to have been cut off at the waist, or have him resting with legs crossed.

Think an expert might be able to see something in this?

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images.app.goo.gl

 

[Kurve]

Well after much looking looking, I found this! So many photos seem to have been cut off at the waist, or have him resting with legs crossed.

Think an expert might be able to see something in this?

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images.app.goo.gl

It was ages ago GND, I cant remember now. There's a pic somewhere of him wearing an affro wig as well floating around but that one might not have gone public yet.

 

[Likeamystery]

Well after much looking looking, I found this! So many photos seem to have been cut off at the waist, or have him resting with legs crossed.

Think an expert might be able to see something in this?

Redirect Notice

images.app.goo.gl

Perhaps he's got one leg shorter than the other or possibly was born with a displaced hip. There does seem to be something wrong with one of his legs.

 

[ms finch]

Sorry to pick just one part out of your post like this, its not picking but I'm not sure this particular workplace 'incident' means 'accident' where he acquired an injury/disability to be covered by workers comp? I'm a bit confused.

There is a record in the personnel file of the accused of some workplace incidents he had been involved in. The accused sustained an injury at work on 9 April 1996. Telstra does not hold any records relating to the accused's assault on WD on 7 May 1990.283

I hope someone is digging into this, Bret maybe.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that that incident was an accident. It could be a whole range of things. I have no idea.

The only reason I brought it up is because it was an incident not long before Jane went missing. If we knew what it was someone might be able to match it to MM’s gait or we could eliminate it as relevant.

 

[Girlnextdoor]

This might be useful for review my fellow "sleuthians" (yes I know it's not a word, just liked the sound of it)
All the CSK Podcasts in one place.(126 episodes!)

CLAREMONT: The Trial

Ever since the shocking deaths of three young women in 1996 and 1997, the unanswered questions surrounding the Claremont serial killings have remained one of the biggest mysteries in WA history. Any hope of justice in the tragic deaths of Ciara Glennon, Sarah Spiers and Jane Rimmer seemed bleak...

podcasts.google.com

 

[GreyCrow]

Sorry to pick just one part out of your post like this, its not picking but I'm not sure this particular workplace 'incident' means 'accident' where he acquired an injury/disability to be covered by workers comp? I'm a bit confused.

There is a record in the personnel file of the accused of some workplace incidents he had been involved in.


The accused sustained an injury at work on 9 April 1996. Telstra does not hold any records relating to the accused's assault on WD on 7 May 1990.283

I hope someone is digging into this, Bret maybe.

Does that read better?

 

[Kurve]

Does that read better?

Not really. The context is all messed up and does this injury go towards a workers comp payment?

I'm hoping someone bashed him up?

 

[Kurve]

It would be interesting actually to see if he'd ever reported to the police as a victim of crime. That wouldn't surprise me.

 

[BFew]

does this injury go towards a workers comp payment?

I'm hoping someone bashed him up?

Maybe BRE was getting teased at work for being a potential CSK POI and he was getting a workers comp payment for workmates bullying him and the resulting sleep and drinking issues he was having as a claimed result of the bullying.

 

[Kurve]

This is astonishing. A Melbourne footballer dragged a woman who happened to be a nurse into a laneway, he straddled her, had his hand over her mouth etc etc it's all on CCTV and he was found not guilty of a sexual assault, pleading guilty to a common assault.

It's groundhog day.


The attack was interrupted by Adrian Woodgate, an off-duty New Zealand detective, who was in Melbourne on holiday with his wife and children.

During his evidence, Mr Woodgate told Victoria's County Court he and his family were on the way to catch a bus to the MotoGP at Phillip Island when he saw Williams on top of a woman.

"I could hear screaming," Mr Woodgate said.

"I didn't know what was occurring, but I wasn't happy with it."
He intervened and yelled at Williams, who fled.

Williams later handed himself in to police, who showed him pictures of himself on top of the woman, with his hand over her mouth.

"He said he didn't remember the incident," Judge Fox said. (Are you going to send him to a sex offenders course?!)

Footballer who 'didn't remember' dragging nurse down Melbourne laneway not guilty of sex crime

A man who was captured on camera dragging a nurse down a Melbourne laneway before lying on top of her is found not guilty of intending to sexually assault her, but guilty of common assault.

www.abc.net.au

 

[BonzaRam]

This is astonishing. A Melbourne footballer dragged a woman who happened to be a nurse into a laneway, he straddled her, had his hand over her mouth etc etc it's all on CCTV and he was found not guilty of a sexual assault, pleading guilty to a common assault.

It's groundhog day.


The attack was interrupted by Adrian Woodgate, an off-duty New Zealand detective, who was in Melbourne on holiday with his wife and children.

During his evidence, Mr Woodgate told Victoria's County Court he and his family were on the way to catch a bus to the MotoGP at Phillip Island when he saw Williams on top of a woman.

"I could hear screaming," Mr Woodgate said.

"I didn't know what was occurring, but I wasn't happy with it."
He intervened and yelled at Williams, who fled.

Williams later handed himself in to police, who showed him pictures of himself on top of the woman, with his hand over her mouth.

"He said he didn't remember the incident," Judge Fox said. (Are you going to send him to a sex offenders course?!)

Footballer who 'didn't remember' dragging nurse down Melbourne laneway not guilty of sex crime

A man who was captured on camera dragging a nurse down a Melbourne laneway before lying on top of her is found not guilty of intending to sexually assault her, but guilty of common assault.

www.abc.net.au

My question is what exactly do they think he would have done if it wasn't interrupted? Sit down over tea and scones and have a chat?

 

[Kurve]

My question is what exactly do they think he would have done if it wasn't interrupted? Sit down over tea and scones and have a chat?

I'm not sure why he showed up at the police station to hand himself in either if he can't remember doing it?

 

[Likeamystery]

Would a disability allowance paid by Telecom/Telstra with his usual pay indicate the injury occurred on the job?

I had him pegged for leg or hip injury actually, he walks as if he favours one side and one of his feet turns out iirc it's been a while since I looked.

I'm not sure.

 

[BonzaRam]

Part of the agreement for taxi drivers to go in and give fingerprints and a DNA swab to the police was that they would destroy them records once the case was closed. So the next question is when they are going to confirm that has been done, or will they use the unsolved SS part of it as reason not too?

 

[ms finch]

Part of the agreement for taxi drivers to go in and give fingerprints and a DNA swab to the police was that they would destroy them records once the case was closed. So the next question is when they are going to confirm that has been done, or will they use the unsolved SS part of it as reason not too?

I was literally just reading a couple of articles about this! The taxi drivers are rightfully extremely p***ed off that it hasn’t been done, because they were actually told it would be done once all of them had been ruled out (which they argue was back when the DNA on Ciara’s fingernails was found). I think the police will use Sarah’s case as an excuse not to. Someone should take that to court in my view.

 

[BFew]

Part of the agreement for taxi drivers to go in and give fingerprints and a DNA swab to the police was that they would destroy them records once the case was closed. So the next question is when they are going to confirm that has been done, or will they use the unsolved SS part of it as reason not too?

See the Claremont Murders Media Thread post #319 for a copy of a letter to the 10 October 2020 edition of the Post Newspaper, from Tony Gibbs, the former operations manager of Black & White Cabs who claims

https://postnewspapers.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/10102020.pdf

'Disappointingly, no apology either – and those DNA samples still have not been destroyed.'

 

[BonzaRam]

See the Claremont Murders Media Thread post #319 for a copy of a letter to the 10 October 2020 edition of the Post Newspaper, from Tony Gibbs, the former operations manager of Black & White Cabs who claims

https://postnewspapers.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/10102020.pdf

'Disappointingly, no apology either – and those DNA samples still have not been destroyed.'

Thanks for that BFew.
I don't seek an apology or recognition for that matter but i do want my Samples and Records pertaining to this destroyed as agreed upon originally. it's not that i am planning on committing any crimes or anything but a deal is a deal and if they break that deal then I , and no doubt many other taxi drivers, will have no reason nor desire to ever trust their system again.

I was literally just reading a couple of articles about this! The taxi drivers are rightfully extremely p***ed off that it hasn’t been done, because they were actually told it would be done once all of them had been ruled out (which they argue was back when the DNA on Ciara’s fingernails was found). I think the police will use Sarah’s case as an excuse not to. Someone should take that to court in my view.

Maybe a class action is what is needed.

It doesn't make sense, why destroy the goodwill and alienate an industry that has ears and eyes everywhere? That is huge a information resource they will lose, not to mention foolish.

 

[ms finch]

Thanks for that BFew.
I don't seek an apology or recognition for that matter but i do want my Samples and Records pertaining to this destroyed as agreed upon originally. it's not that i am planning on committing any crimes or anything but a deal is a deal and if they break that deal then I , and no doubt many other taxi drivers, will have no reason nor desire to ever trust their system again.


Maybe a class action is what is needed.

It doesn't make sense, why destroy the goodwill and alienate an industry that has ears and eyes everywhere? That is huge a information resource they will lose, not to mention foolish.

At the time this was done, a couple of civil liberties groups wrote about it. They believed that police and government saw this as an opportunity and enjoyed it as part of a move towards a more authoritarian state. They never believed the data would be destroyed. I can’t say I disagree with them.

I agree it is foolish. Not only have they destroyed the good will of the taxi industry, they will never again get the support of an industry like that.

It would be interesting if they ever tried to use the data to convict someone else.

 

[zedx]

Is there any legal action being taken at the moment? in regards to the samples being destroyed. If not, why not? I can't understand how this has been allowed to happen! It is so not right!

Thanks for that BFew.
I don't seek an apology or recognition for that matter but i do want my Samples and Records pertaining to this destroyed as agreed upon originally. it's not that i am planning on committing any crimes or anything but a deal is a deal and if they break that deal then I , and no doubt many other taxi drivers, will have no reason nor desire to ever trust their system again.


Maybe a class action is what is needed.

It doesn't make sense, why destroy the goodwill and alienate an industry that has ears and eyes everywhere? That is huge a information resource they will lose, not to mention foolish.
[/QUOTE)

 

[BFew]

Back in late 2019, there was much debate in the threads about the CSK trial evidence of Karen Mabbott, the witness who claimed to see a man standing at the back of a light coloured car in Dean St Claremont, near the intersection of Dean St and Stirling Hwy, not long after midnight whilst driving home the night that Ciara Glennon disappeared.

It's interesting to see that in his 619 page Trial Verdict document, that Justice Hall concluded about he was unable to place any reliance on Mabbott's evidence.

'1064 At around the same time Ms Mabbott saw a woman, fitting the description of Ms Glennon, walking along Stirling Highway in the direction of Fremantle, but on the opposite side of the road and at a point that is further along the highway than where Ms Glennon was last seen by Mr Bond and Mr Gray. She also saw a light‑coloured car parked in Dean Street and a man standing near that car. The opportunity for Ms Mabbott to see this car and the man must have been fleeting as she was driving past. I also take into account that the man was not referred to in Ms Mabbott's first police statement (though she insists it was mentioned by her at the time to the officer who took the statement). It is also unlikely that Ms Glennon would have crossed to the north side of the road if she was walking to Mosman Park (being the opposite side of the road to any passing cars or taxis that would be travelling in the direction she wanted to go). Though I do not doubt the honesty of Ms Mabbott, the circumstances in which she made her observations and the general nature of them leaves open a real possibility that the woman seen by her was not Ms Glennon and no conclusion as to the identity of the man is possible. I am unable to place any reliance on her evidence.'

I also note an interesting fact about Mabbott, that appears to have only been publicly revealed in the the trial verdict document,
'1039 ... Her husband was a police officer at the time so she was adhering to the speed limit on Stirling Highway.'

 

[Girlnextdoor]

"Had secretary Sarah Spiers, 18, waited about 45 minutes, she could have left Club Bayview with her friends following Australia Day festivities in January 1996.
She went to leave about 1.30am then called for a taxi from a phone box at 2.06am but vanished by the time it arrived minutes later.
Her friends left the club about 2.15am."

(I had no idea of the time gap with SS, 1.30 -2.06 am before she called a taxi, so that's over half an hour of walking along on her own. And the fact that tragically her friends left the club just 9 minutes after she called the taxi!)

"Had childcare worker Jane Rimmer, 23, listened to her friends when they urged her to join them in a taxi as they left the Continental Hotel around midnight on June 8, 1996, rather than insisting she wanted to stay out alone, she would likely have been safe."

Solicitor Ciara Glennon, 27, had "ummed and ahhed" about going out with colleagues to the same venue less than half an hour before it closed on March 14, 1997.

Had she decided to go home instead, she may still be here." BBM

Just so heartbreaking when you read these accounts, a split second decision, a few minutes more and these beautiful women would still be with us.

The other thing that stood out to me in this article, and I've never read this before, regarding the Huntingdale attack.

"The 18-year-old woman who Edwards recently admitted attacking as she slept in her Huntingdale home in 1988 was initially unsure if the man straddling her back was her boyfriend.

Edwards hesitated when she told him she loved him, then when she reached behind and realised it was not her partner, she dug her nail into his face."

(It was Valentine's Day so did this shock him a woman saying she loved him at that young age? AND what about DNA from the digging in of the H attacks fingernails, was a swab taken at the time?)

Claremont victims made fateful decisions

Each of the Claremont serial killer's victims made the fatal decision to leave their friends moments before they...

www.canberratimes.com.au

 

[BFew]

I also note an interesting fact about Mabbott, that appears to have only been publicly revealed in the the trial verdict document,
'1039 ... Her husband was a police officer at the time so she was adhering to the speed limit on Stirling Highway.'

Remind me not to use that sort of credibility destroying line as an alibi/excuse next time I'm suspected of posting too fast, or appear to be dropping names to try and sound more believable.

Almost as evidencially self-destructive, as the over-confident witness that claimed under oath that his diary was 100% accurate.