Current Claremont Murders Discussion & Edwards trial updates pt4 - Beyond the Verdict

[Kurve]

Here is
- Claremont Murders - Part One and Part Two and Part 3
- Media
- The Bunker

• Hey Bret? Stalking Claremont the book.
• Justice Hall's Decision 619 pgs

 

[BonzaRam]

G'day all, new to the forum, but definately not new to the case. Been on it for 25 years, so the latest is that the police believe he did not act alone. I know who else they are looking at, though i cant repeat the name.

At what stage of his crimes do they think he started using a partner in his crimes?

I only recall two testimonies during the case that implied more than one person being involved
1) KJG when she heard him speaking in the van but wasn't sure if it was directed at her or to someone else because she couldn't clearly hear what was being said.
2) One of the witness in relation to CG saw two males at a bus stop , the burger boys were at a bus stop and sighted CG and the Commodore, the only witnesses to see CG that night that the judge gave any witness reliability too in that regard. (yes there were 3 but did all 3 arrive at the bus stop at the exact same time?)

From what little we know of the Huntingdale crimes there is nothing to indicate more than one person, We know for fact the Hollywood Hospital attack was a one person crime, The Karrakata crime has a small chance of maybe 2nd person involved but only because of distorted speech.
That leaves us with the CSK crimes. Nowhere near enough information to even suggest more than one person involved in relation to SS, but not enough to suggest there wasn't either. At best it would be a hunch.
Last sighting of JR was video footage of her standing outside the nightclub. That footage shows the mystery man but again that is one person only. No testimonies from Wellard (screams) indicate more than one person being involved.
In regards to CG the last confirmed sighting, which I mentioned above with Burger Boys, has her leaning into a commodore with only one person in it.

I don't recall anything in the DNA or Fibre Evidence revealing a possible third party, I would have thought the defense would have jumped on that to throw doubt into case.
Then we have the Telstra Living Witness testimonies about being picked up by one male not two.
It is possible someone else was involved after the abductions but then that takes us back to the fibre and DNA evidence that lacks a third person.

 

[CaseyJones]

At what stage of his crimes do they think he started using a partner in his crimes?

I only recall two testimonies during the case that implied more than one person being involved
1) KJG when she heard him speaking in the van but wasn't sure if it was directed at her or to someone else because she couldn't clearly hear what was being said.
2) One of the witness in relation to CG saw two males at a bus stop , the burger boys were at a bus stop and sighted CG and the Commodore, the only witnesses to see CG that night that the judge gave any witness reliability too in that regard. (yes there were 3 but did all 3 arrive at the bus stop at the exact same time?)

From what little we know of the Huntingdale crimes there is nothing to indicate more than one person, We know for fact the Hollywood Hospital attack was a one person crime, The Karrakata crime has a small chance of maybe 2nd person involved but only because of distorted speech.
That leaves us with the CSK crimes. Nowhere near enough information to even suggest more than one person involved in relation to SS, but not enough to suggest there wasn't either. At best it would be a hunch.
Last sighting of JR was video footage of her standing outside the nightclub. That footage shows the mystery man but again that is one person only. No testimonies from Wellard (screams) indicate more than one person being involved.
In regards to CG the last confirmed sighting, which I mentioned above with Burger Boys, has her leaning into a commodore with only one person in it.

I don't recall anything in the DNA or Fibre Evidence revealing a possible third party, I would have thought the defense would have jumped on that to throw doubt into case.
Then we have the Telstra Living Witness testimonies about being picked up by one male not two.
It is possible someone else was involved after the abductions but then that takes us back to the fibre and DNA evidence that lacks a third person.

I dont have an opinion on when he would have an accomplice and only the police would know the circumstances as to why they are looking at someone. That person is ' Not Talking '. So if he's not talking, it would insinuate that they reckon he's involved and choosing not to cooperate. In 1995 there was the case of a young lady in claremont getting into a car with someone in the back seat trying to grab her, she managed to open the door and roll out, injuring her ankle.

 

[BonzaRam]

I dont have an opinion on when he would have an accomplice and only the police would know the circumstances as to why they are looking at someone. That person is ' Not Talking '. So if he's not talking, it would insinuate that they reckon he's involved and choosing not to cooperate. In 1995 there was the case of a young lady in claremont getting into a car with someone in the back seat trying to grab her, she managed to open the door and roll out, injuring her ankle.

That happened in October 1994 and from what I can gather from the article below they were specific about it being a Swan Taxi which strongly implies it had nothing to do with telstra vehicles or edwards.

Many people choose not to talk to the police, especially in a state that has a habit of wrongful convictions... without any evidence of a 2nd person being involved in the CSK murders I would suggest they are just digging for info from anyone they think they can get it from. They are still trying to solve the SS case and the police obviously may have info we are not privy too...

 

[BFew]

Whatever happened to the taxi driver that dropped Jane Rimmer off at Bay View Terrace the night she disappeared?

It was never reported that he gave evidence at BRE's trial.

I wonder if he was ever called as a witness, or was even still alive or well enough to be a witness by the time the trial came around.

You would think that WA Police would have wanted to rule out that he did not pre-arrange to pick up Jane Rimmer later that night, or Jane have his number and have called him to pick her up from outside the Conti that evening around midnight when she was last proven to be seen alive (on CCTV).

I don't recall the media (print, podcasts or books), or any BRE trial court documents ever mentioning this taxi driver by name again after the 9 Nov, 2019 article in the West below.

THE STATE OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA -v- EDWARDS [No 3] [2019] WASC 405 (8 November 2019)

'Iosif Patrascu'

'37 Mr Patrascu is a taxi driver who can give evidence relevant to the disappearance of Ms Rimmer. He has previously given a statement. During proofing he was shown a map on which he marked the location of the taxi rank near the Continental Hotel in Claremont and a document with taxi dispatch records. He marked the map as to where he picked up Ms Rimmer and also confirms that the taxi he drove was a white Ford Falcon station wagon.'

'38 This information merely provides clarification of issues already referred to in an existing statement. It falls within the proofing exception and leave is not required.'

Claremont killings: The witnesses who could be crucial

The identities of some of the key witnesses in the Claremont serial killing trial have been revealed for the first time.

thewest.com.au

'Claremont serial killings: The witnesses who could be crucial in trial of Bradley Robert Edwards'​

'Sat, 9 November 2019 2:12PM'

'Other witnesses revealed include a taxi driver, Iosif Patrascu, who has emerged as one of the last people to see Ms Rimmer alive, after he dropped her off in Cottesloe on the night she went missing.'

 

[CaseyJones]

At what stage will i be able to post files/pics please.

 

[Wombot]

Mates, relatives, only one can be true, but not for me to say. In 2008, i figured out that he used predetermined places to put the girls. This means he used a pattern, which also shows the direction of his huntingdale house. I have a photo which is from 2014, showing that direction, 27 months before they knew his name.
I'll find it and post it.

What do you mean by ‘he used a pattern’, and how does that relate to pre-determined places? And how could it show ‘the direction to his Huntingdale house’? I will be sceptical, myself, until you clarify.

Edit- he may have used pre-determined places insomuch as he wanted to use remote locations that he was familiar with. But if you’re suggesting that he was trying to create an indication of where to find another potential victim, for example SS, then I think that is fanciful. There were numerous people who claimed this but they were proven to be incorrect. That’s Hollywood serial killers, and rare in reality. I repeat that the areas that the disposal areas were selected solely for their remoteness in order for him to avoid detection.

I always welcomed crackpot ideas. It was a spectacle. But it’s not to be believed.

If your assertion that there is a suspected accomplice is based on similar levels of fantasy, then I’m sceptical of that too.

Again, I’m not criticising you. It’s interesting to read. But it’s pure fantasy.

 

[FTY1]

Whatever happened to the taxi driver that dropped Jane Rimmer off at Bay View Terrace the night she disappeared?

It was never reported that he gave evidence at BRE's trial.

I wonder if he was ever called as a witness, or was even still alive or well enough to be a witness by the time the trial came around.

You would think that WA Police would have wanted to rule out that he did not pre-arrange to pick up Jane Rimmer later that night, or Jane have his number and have called him to pick her up from outside the Conti that evening around midnight when she was last proven to be seen alive (on CCTV).

I don't recall the media (print, podcasts or books), or any BRE trial court documents ever mentioning this taxi driver by name again after the 9 Nov, 2019 article in the West below.

THE STATE OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA -v- EDWARDS [No 3] [2019] WASC 405 (8 November 2019)

'Iosif Patrascu'

'37 Mr Patrascu is a taxi driver who can give evidence relevant to the disappearance of Ms Rimmer. He has previously given a statement. During proofing he was shown a map on which he marked the location of the taxi rank near the Continental Hotel in Claremont and a document with taxi dispatch records. He marked the map as to where he picked up Ms Rimmer and also confirms that the taxi he drove was a white Ford Falcon station wagon.'

'38 This information merely provides clarification of issues already referred to in an existing statement. It falls within the proofing exception and leave is not required.'

Claremont killings: The witnesses who could be crucial

The identities of some of the key witnesses in the Claremont serial killing trial have been revealed for the first time.

thewest.com.au

'Claremont serial killings: The witnesses who could be crucial in trial of Bradley Robert Edwards'​

'Sat, 9 November 2019 2:12PM'

'Other witnesses revealed include a taxi driver, Iosif Patrascu, who has emerged as one of the last people to see Ms Rimmer alive, after he dropped her off in Cottesloe on the night she went missing.'

I seemed to remember the taxi driver evidence perhaps from the daily podcast. It was used to prove that the fibres in Jane's hair were not from the taxi that she went to Claremont in. Her hair had freshly been washed and cut by a hairdresser, so identifying that cab was quite important in the evidence of the fibres.

 

[BFew]

I seemed to remember the taxi driver evidence perhaps from the daily podcast. It was used to prove that the fibres in Jane's hair were not from the taxi that she went to Claremont in. Her hair had freshly been washed and cut by a hairdresser, so identifying that cab was quite important in the evidence of the fibres.

Jane got more than one taxi that day.

One to the OBH Cottesloe, and then the one from Cottesloe to Claremont.

Which of the 2 cab rides are you referring to?

See p 217 (David Kluwen evidence summary) and p547-549 in the below Justice Hall final verdict document

There is a whole lot about the taxi to Cottesloe in 2 different sections of the document.

With only one para on the Cottesloe to Claremont taxi (I have quoted below). That para does not name the driver or give any details about the taxi except to say that it was a Sedan.

https://ecourts.justice.wa.gov.au/eCourtsPortal/(X(1)S(a2z1jud25x5sqmnfuoswtq5z))/Decisions/DownloadDecision?id=9582e4ba-91ec-4119-998b-269447363aed

'2127 There is other evidence about the taxi Ms Rimmer took from the Ocean Beach Hotel to The Continental. The bar manager from the hotel, Jarrod Turner, said that he called Swan Taxis for Ms Rimmer and her friends. Two of her friends gave evidence that the taxi they took from the Ocean Beach Hotel was a sedan.'

 

[CaseyJones]

What do you mean by ‘he used a pattern’, and how does that relate to pre-determined places? And how could it show ‘the direction to his Huntingdale house’? I will be sceptical, myself, until you clarify.

Edit- he may have used pre-determined places insomuch as he wanted to use remote locations that he was familiar with. But if you’re suggesting that he was trying to create an indication of where to find another potential victim, for example SS, then I think that is fanciful. There were numerous people who claimed this but they were proven to be incorrect. That’s Hollywood serial killers, and rare in reality. I repeat that the areas that the disposal areas were selected solely for their remoteness in order for him to avoid detection.

I always welcomed crackpot ideas. It was a spectacle. But it’s not to be believed.

If your assertion that there is a suspected accomplice is based on similar levels of fantasy, then I’m sceptical of that too.

Again, I’m not criticising you. It’s interesting to read. But it’s pure fantasy.

I will post this pattern on here soon. I will also challenge anyone who can say its not what he done, or that it does'nt lead to the locations of the victims. You WILL see two more victims never mentioned by police and you WILL see the direction to his huntingdale house. I approached a certain media outlet a couple of years ago. They said you are about the 1000th person who thinks they've cracked something, so who's right out of those 1000 ? The police have looked at it after a private investigator recommended they should. As i said, it will be posted soon.

 

[CaseyJones]

I will post this pattern on here soon. I will also challenge anyone who can say its not what he done, or that it does'nt lead to the locations of the victims. You WILL see two more victims never mentioned by police and you WILL see the direction to his huntingdale house. I approached a certain media outlet a couple of years ago. They said you are about the 1000th person who thinks they've cracked something, so who's right out of those 1000 ? The police have looked at it after a private investigator recommended they should. As i said, it will be posted soon.

Definately not a crackpot theory as you will see. No fantasies, you'll just have to wait till its posted. As for the police looking at an accomplice, 100% true. Its probably hard to accept what i've got, and it will upset some of the long time people who have posted on here, who think they know more about the case than everyone else, with respect. See if you can poke holes in it, no one else has over the past 14 years.

 

[Uncle Baby Billy]

Definately not a crackpot theory as you will see. No fantasies, you'll just have to wait till its posted. As for the police looking at an accomplice, 100% true. Its probably hard to accept what i've got, and it will upset some of the long time people who have posted on here, who think they know more about the case than everyone else, with respect. See if you can poke holes in it, no one else has over the past 14 years.

Less talky, more posty..

 

[BFew]

I will post this pattern on here soon.

What are you waiting for?

The next full moon isn't for another 2 weeks.

 

[CaseyJones]

What are you waiting for?

The next full moon isn't for another 2 weeks.

 

[CaseyJones]

So you dont see any relevance ?

The 22nd june 1997 was when peta webber disappeared in albany, points to ciara.
14th january 1997, sarah lee davey, broome, points to jane rimmer. Her date, 9th june points to his house.

 

[BFew]

The 22nd june 1997 was when peta webber disappeared in albany

First I can recall hearing of this fishy case.

Still searching for what happened at the Coronial Inquest if it ever went ahead this year as reported it would.

Coroner examines suspected homicide after police report

For the first time, Western Australia's coroner will examine the suspected homicide of a young Albany mother missing for nearly 25 years.

www.abc.net.au

Cold case squad probe Gap disappearance

The case which has troubled police for two decades

www.albanyadvertiser.com.au

'Cold case squad probe Gap disappearance​

Tim Edmunds
Albany Advertiser
Thu, 1 June 2017 10:07AM'

'It is a case that has troubled police for two decades, but they are still hopeful of finding a long-awaited breakthrough to help solve the mystery of what happened to Albany woman Peta Simone Weber.

On the eve of the 20th anniversary of her disappearance at The Gap this month, police believe the Albany community can still help them solve the case.

Ms Weber, 25, was fishing with her husband off The Gap on June 22, 1997 at 6.45am when she went missing when heading towards the public restrooms.

For the first time publicly, the Albany Advertiser can reveal police are treating her disappearance as a potential homicide.

The case recently underwent review by the Special Crime Squad responsible for the breakthrough in the Macro investigation into the Claremont serial killings.

Headed by former Albany police officer in charge, Detective Senior Sergeant Quentin Flatman, extra resources were allocated in 2015 to the squad, which reviews and investigates unsolved homicides and long-term missing persons declared “cold cases”.

In an exclusive interview this week, Det. Sen. Sgt Flatman said police suspected there were members of the Albany community who knew what had happened to Ms Weber and could now feel comfortable to step forward and help solve the 20-year mystery.

“We suspect there may be some people in the community who know what has happened to Peta,” he said.

“Over time, allegiances change, people change and circumstances change and someone who may have felt intimidated or uncomfortable in sharing any information to police when this occurred in the 1990s may now be in a position to do so.

“Any of those people, we obviously ask them to come forward and contact Crime Stoppers.”

In 2000, Ms Weber’s husband, Richard Weber, took his own life just days after the third anniversary of Ms Weber’s disappearance.

At the time, police quashed rumours a note admitting involvement in her disappearance had been found.

“The person or persons responsible for her disappearance have not been identified,” Det. Sen. Sgt Flatman said.

“Police of varying degrees have undertaken inquiries in relation to this matter of its 20- year history, with the latest being late last year members of the Special Crime Squad travelled to Albany and completed other inquiries to try and bring this matter to some sort of closure.

“Obviously we had concerns regarding the circumstances of her disappearance, which has caused us to undertake inquiries of someone we believe has disappeared in suspicious circumstances.

“We leave no stone unturned and people who were with Peta in the days leading up to her disappearance, in particular those who were with her on the day, have all been subject to police interview and investigation as to their potential involvement and/or other information they may have of the last known actions of Peta.”

Det. Sen. Sgt Flatman said detectives from the Special Crime Squad were in the “infancy” of preparing a report for the coroner.

“The troubling aspect is not being able to bring some sort of sufficient closure to next of kin and families as to what has happened to their loved ones,” he said.

“We cannot rule out it is a homicide but as much weight added that we can’t say it wasn’t a tragic accident as we do see on that coastline in Albany.

“We always take information from people in the community who are prepared to give it to us. It’s a reminder we don’t give up with these inquiries.”

Anyone with information about the disappearance of Peta Simone Weber is urged to contact Crime Stoppers on 1800 333 000.'

 

[BFew]

14th january 1997, sarah lee davey, broome

Yet another fishy death.

Yet again, the last person to be known to be with her was most likely involved in her death, and not BRE.

Inquest into the Death of Sara-Lee DAVEY

'Delivered on 19 August 2016 at Perth.

The deceased lived with her family at One-Arm Point. She was 21 years of age.

On 13 January 1997 the deceased travelled by road to Broome with her parents and some young relatives. The deceased stayed in Broome with a family friend while the remainder of her family continued to Karratha. The deceased’s family planned to return to Broome a few days later to pick her up on their way home.

The deceased spent that afternoon and evening drinking at a hotel bar with the family friend and a male friend. Later that night, the deceased went to another bar on her own and met Richard Edward Dorrough, a naval seaman from an Australian Navy patrol boat.

At around 2:30am on 14 January 1997 the deceased and Mr Dorrough took a taxi to the Broome Wharf where the Navy patrol boat was docked. Mr Dorrough attempted to take the deceased onto the boat, but was stopped by the sailor on watch.

The deceased and Mr Dorrough then walked behind a large shed on the wharf. On the wharf at that time were two men fishing off the end of the wharf. At about the time the deceased and Mr Dorrough went behind the shed, the men heard a woman yell and scream.

A short time later, Mr Dorrough returned to the patrol boat alone. The sailor on watch did not see the deceased leave the wharf. He noticed that Mr Dorrough had scratches on his face that he had not had when he got out of the taxi previously.

The deceased was not seen again. There had been several purported sightings of the deceased after her disappearance, but they proved to be unsubstantiated following a cold case review that followed Mr Dorrough’s suicide in 2014.

The Coroner was satisfied that the death of the deceased had been established beyond all reasonable doubt, but he was not able to find either how death occurred or the cause of the death.

The Coroner made an open finding as to how death occurred.'

 

[BFew]

Richard Edward Dorrough, a naval seaman from an Australian Navy patrol boat.

Here's some background on Dorrough

Mystery of the suspected serial killer who lived in Byford - Your Local Examiner

WA police have launched a nationwide appeal for information about a suspected serial killer who lived in Byford until his death last year. Former

www.yourlocalexaminer.com.au

 

[Wombot]

Definately not a crackpot theory as you will see. No fantasies, you'll just have to wait till its posted. As for the police looking at an accomplice, 100% true. Its probably hard to accept what i've got, and it will upset some of the long time people who have posted on here, who think they know more about the case than everyone else, with respect. See if you can poke holes in it, no one else has over the past 14 years.

It’s not beyond the realm of possibility that the police are looking at an accomplice in one or more of the crimes, but we have no reason to think they are.

I don’t believe that there was any pattern in the disposal sites that leads to further victims let alone the Huntingdale house which he didn’t even live in at the time of the murders. ‘Hey coppers, here’s my folks’ house!’. Why would he do that?

Any reasonable sleuth disregarded any nonsense of symbolism in disposal site coordinates. It happens a lot in fiction but next to never in reality. BRE was simply seeking to find an area that time and weather could cover his tracks. That’s it. He’s not some diabolical mastermind trying to play a game of cat and mouse with police. He was a compulsive, desperate criminal wishing to avoid detection. He didn’t seem to try to interact with police like the Zodiac or Jack the Ripper appeared to do. I grant you that he apparently left a victim’s garment at a grave site but that was done years later and didn’t require much risk. That’s as much communication as he was willing to do.

But still it would be interesting to see your findings.

 

[CaseyJones]

Yet another fishy death.

Yet again, the last person to be known to be with her was most likely involved in her death, and not BRE.

Inquest into the Death of Sara-Lee DAVEY

'Delivered on 19 August 2016 at Perth.

The deceased lived with her family at One-Arm Point. She was 21 years of age.

On 13 January 1997 the deceased travelled by road to Broome with her parents and some young relatives. The deceased stayed in Broome with a family friend while the remainder of her family continued to Karratha. The deceased’s family planned to return to Broome a few days later to pick her up on their way home.

The deceased spent that afternoon and evening drinking at a hotel bar with the family friend and a male friend. Later that night, the deceased went to another bar on her own and met Richard Edward Dorrough, a naval seaman from an Australian Navy patrol boat.

At around 2:30am on 14 January 1997 the deceased and Mr Dorrough took a taxi to the Broome Wharf where the Navy patrol boat was docked. Mr Dorrough attempted to take the deceased onto the boat, but was stopped by the sailor on watch.

The deceased and Mr Dorrough then walked behind a large shed on the wharf. On the wharf at that time were two men fishing off the end of the wharf. At about the time the deceased and Mr Dorrough went behind the shed, the men heard a woman yell and scream.

A short time later, Mr Dorrough returned to the patrol boat alone. The sailor on watch did not see the deceased leave the wharf. He noticed that Mr Dorrough had scratches on his face that he had not had when he got out of the taxi previously.

The deceased was not seen again. There had been several purported sightings of the deceased after her disappearance, but they proved to be unsubstantiated following a cold case review that followed Mr Dorrough’s suicide in 2014.

The Coroner was satisfied that the death of the deceased had been established beyond all reasonable doubt, but he was not able to find either how death occurred or the cause of the death.

The Coroner made an open finding as to how death occurred.'

I read all that stuff long ago, all about dorrough. No one knows if he was the last person with her. Why would BRE be in broome, i know. On the above pattern, 3 murdered or missings dates point to 2 victims and BRE's house. Study it and you might notice other stuff, then figure out how it tells you where the bodies were on the directional lines.

 

[Wombot]

Fire away, i understand there will be lots of questions.

I can’t view the attachment

 

[BonzaRam]

I can’t view the attachment

I have the same problem

 

[CaseyJones]

Maybe chief has'nt allowed it yet, dont know. Wombot you're acting like the chief magistrate, 'i'll grant you this', 'BRE is not this', 'he did'nt do that' etc, who do you think you are, all you have done is quote whats been in the media, repeating what we all know. He was in the huntingdale house when SS disappeared, however thats not where she is. Also you dont grant me anything.

 

[Wombot]

Maybe chief has'nt allowed it yet, dont know. Wombot you're acting like the chief magistrate, 'i'll grant you this', 'BRE is not this', 'he did'nt do that' etc, who do you think you are, all you have done is quote whats been in the media, repeating what we all know. He was in the huntingdale house when SS disappeared, however thats not where she is. Also you dont grant me anything.

Ok, sorry pal.

 

[CaseyJones]

Is the attatchment available to anyone yet ?

 

[BonzaRam]

Is the attatchment available to anyone yet ?

I can see ya map but no references to what each date represents. You have 8 dates on your pie chart. who are the 8 victims they represent?

I also noticed that if the dates point to previous victims then it has JR out in the ocean.

More info needed to make sense of this.