Current Claremont Murders Discussion & Edwards trial updates

[Countessa]

There were tendons cut in the wrist and two cuts in the arm bone of Glennon. They were described as defensive wounds by the pathologists. There is also a defect on the rear arm matching them.

It's a stretch to go from wounding someone to overcome them to massive disfigurement of their back and rear scalp.

Occams razor says he overcame Ciara with a knife and killed her with or without sexual assualt. There is no suggestion other than from Christian that there was an intermediate slashing rage episode.

Edit: And you can check watoday and live24blog to confirm that. No-one reports a mad slasher.

"Slashing" means cut with a wide, sweeping movement, typically using a knife or sword. Bret doesn't use the word "mad" he uses the term "knife wielding" and "vicious" which is exactly what it is.
I've always found Bret Christian's reporting to be the most accurate of all the newspapers.

 

[Kurve]

They could have been restrained with handcuffs to the front or their hands tied to the front instead of behind their back.

He might have done that too and taken them with him afterwards. That it seems Ciara died where she fell lying on her right arm? iirc I think they may have defended with free hands.

 

[Countessa]

This propensity to act like a raging viking would have been seen in other situations where BRE was cornered/trapped/pushed over the edge.
His wives/brother/parents must also have seen signs of aggression.
Surely it wasn't limited to three occasions and never arose before or after again. And to act normal as if nothing had happened within hours is incredible.

Agree. Makes me wonder what his younger sister went through. There are four people who testified in Court that they thought BRE was going to kill them - 1st wife's boyfriend, HH victim, KK victim and 2nd wife. There are probably other victims as well who have not come forward IMO.

 

[Countessa]

He might have done that too and taken them with him afterwards. That it seems Ciara died where she fell lying on her right arm? iirc I think they may have defended with free hands.

I was wondering whether he might have removed the restraints after death and taken them away to avoid his fingerprints being found.

 

[zedx]

According to Google - Incised wounds are wounds that are usually longer than they are deep. They are caused by a sharp item cutting or slashing into the skin, making a long laceration or cut.

 

[zedx]

As explained in here. Those wounds on Ciara imo look like savage overkill, they were excessive and unnecessary if the mission was simply to kill her.
View attachment 814243

This article describes a most gruesome attack!! No wonder the film and pics were shielded, awful for the family to hear this.

 

[GreyCrow]

Edit: If we can say he planned to murder his victims and given there are allegedly three which are as many as survived his attacks, then it seems quite safe for me to assume their ending had a role to play in his fantasies.

Firstly - the preference of knives could also be about noise control. Though I do recognise the Fear/Control message a knife uses.

The last bit is the crux of it all , though given the escalating behaviours then a death was on the cards. Whether it became about fantasy or about identification - or a mixture of the 2 - will only be truly known once someone sits on a pyschs couch

Edit: Added - The alleged circling of HH by a Telstra vehicle tells of identification control rather than fantasy control ie the removal of the KK victim would have been more about ''shutting her up'' rather than any desire to ''finish the fantasy'' - the circling was a panic move imo

 

[kingswood71]

Had a thought this morning about possible contamination. Now the extracted sperm DNA would have been a decent amount of DNA. I would have thought that IF this had of contaminated AJM40 or 42, then the contaminated sperm DNA would have shown much higher allele peaks than CG's own DNA would have. As we know that STR allele peak heights are related to the amount of DNA from contributors, there should have been a large difference in peak heights, IF the sperm DNA was present compared to CG DNA.

 

[FTY1]

The girls had neck wounds and defensive wounds on hands and arm. That hardly the work of a slasher or person with cutter fantasies. KG had no cut marks at all. The evolution shows he's motivated by sex and escalated to murder over time. His fantasy is far more likely sado-sex than cutting.

Whos KG?

In this case KG is KK

KG had two cut marks on her arm bones - corresponding with the large defect on her rear forearm.

Who's KG?

In this case KG is CG.

You had to be there.

 

[metic]

Sorry. That article is pure bullshit! I was there and I heard the testimony directly from Professor Cooke.

There was no knife wielding slasher other than in the vivid imagination of Bret Christian. There was no long deep cut - blah blah. What Christian is describing is the edges of the post mortem defect.

Cooke was very precise and said there were likley incised wounds in the neck area (and nowadays he wouldn't even say that). What he did say is that incised wounds do act as sources of decomposition and defects due to their breach of the skin and access for insects, predators, and other decomposition agents. He went on to describe the boundaries to the head shoulder defect (and I assume the arm defect but I wasn't there at the time)

I've been a bit suss about Christian in his reports and gloomy prognistications. Now I'm in no doubt.

Your the first to point that out jezza.
I too have called "the post" out for dramatising and hyping up things.
Everyone always defends them and say "he never errs" etc.
I think its a way to sell the story, the statements are usually measured to stretch the truth as much as possible without going too far.
Most noticable in the last few years..

 

[dmorris30]

He was slashing when they were cut. I've already said it was probably over in seconds but the fact remains, he was slashing when he didnt have to.

I've often wondered if he untied the girls restraints and killed them with a knife because he enjoyed the sport of it. The terror on their faces, the attempts at fighting off a much larger and stronger attacker and the pain. I do believe once this case is over the wives and probably more people will tell us about nasty and scary sides to his nature. If he is acquitted we may never hear these stories due to libel laws.

 

[JezzaPerth]

I've often wondered if he untied the girls restraints and killed them with a knife because he enjoyed the sport of it. The terror on their faces, the attempts at fighting off a much larger and stronger attacker and the pain. I do believe once this case is over the wives and probably more people will tell us about nasty and scary sides to his nature. If he is acquitted we may never hear these stories due to libel laws.

There is a possibility their hands were still tied when he attacked - the defensive wounds would be similar. Then in clearing the scene he cut the bindings off to remove the evidence. He knew from the KK rape that the police already had one example of the binding material and knots used.

 

[Countessa]

I've often wondered if he untied the girls restraints and killed them with a knife because he enjoyed the sport of it. The terror on their faces, the attempts at fighting off a much larger and stronger attacker and the pain. I do believe once this case is over the wives and probably more people will tell us about nasty and scary sides to his nature. If he is acquitted we may never hear these stories due to libel laws.

He certainly gets off by terrorising women and he enjoyed the sport of it. Wonder if he wore a clown mask to make it even scarier for them.

 

[Kurve]

I've often wondered if he untied the girls restraints and killed them with a knife because he enjoyed the sport of it. The terror on their faces, the attempts at fighting off a much larger and stronger attacker and the pain. I do believe once this case is over the wives and probably more people will tell us about nasty and scary sides to his nature. If he is acquitted we may never hear these stories due to libel laws.

Agree, if he's taken restraints off it's for the sport. He gets a charge out of it.

If I remember this correctly, something about him jumping out from behind the toilet door at a woman who just got out of the shower through the prowler series. The impression I had when he launched at her, was to slap her about the head repeatedly when he could have just knocked her out and run. As if he was tormenting or provoking her into a fight, which he got and may have ended badly for her had he not been disturbed by one of her kids.

 

[Countessa]

The girls had neck wounds and defensive wounds on hands and arm. That hardly the work of a slasher or person with cutter fantasies. KG had no cut marks at all. The evolution shows he's motivated by sex and escalated to murder over time. His fantasy is far more likely sado-sex than cutting.

I wouldn't call them neck wounds, rather they had their throats slashed.

 

[trawlerman]

He certainly gets off by terrorising women and he enjoyed the sport of it. Wonder if he wore a clown mask to make it even scarier for them.

I'm not sure I agree with it being a premeditated sport, or the acting out a fantasy by cutting women theory etc.
I think it was all about a sexual advance that was rejected.
IMO the CSK was upset by something and went to Claremont late at night looking for free sex by abducting young vulnerable women and when they rejected his advances he attacks them with his knife as they try to fend him off. His anger then gets out of control and he ends up killing them.
It's not that he went out to kill someone.
That's why the CSK probably thinks in his mind that the girls got what was coming to them because they refused to have sex with him and that's why he thinks it wasn't his fault what happened to them which has helped him deal with the knowledge his anger caused three deaths.
But the fact that nobody has been on the witness stand who has seen first hand the propensity of this theory amazes me.
KK didn't resist and that may have saved her life. The boyfriend and wives perhaps didn't pressure him to the extent where he went out of control because they knew what he was capable of doing and simply gave into him.
There has been no testimony along the lines of rejecting BRE's advances for sex and the result it had.

 

[sprockets]

...
There has been no testimony along the lines of rejecting BRE's advances for sex and the result it had.

Well you're saying he killed the ones that rejected him, so there's three that are unable to testify.

 

[dmorris30]

He certainly gets off by terrorising women and he enjoyed the sport of it. Wonder if he wore a clown mask to make it even scarier for them.

Yes that pic on his FB is a red flag

 

[Countessa]

I'm not sure I agree with it being a premeditated sport, or the acting out a fantasy by cutting women theory etc.
I think it was all about a sexual advance that was rejected.
IMO the CSK was upset by something and went to Claremont late at night looking for free sex by abducting young vulnerable women and when they rejected his advances he attacks them with his knife as they try to fend him off. His anger then gets out of control and he ends up killing them.
It's not that he went out to kill someone.
That's why the CSK probably thinks in his mind that the girls got what was coming to them because they refused to have sex with him and that's why he thinks it wasn't his fault what happened to them which has helped him deal with the knowledge his anger caused three deaths.
But the fact that nobody has been on the witness stand who has seen first hand the propensity of this theory amazes me.
KK didn't resist and that may have saved her life. The boyfriend and wives perhaps didn't pressure him to the extent where he went out of control because they knew what he was capable of doing and simply gave into him.
There has been no testimony along the lines of rejecting BRE's advances for sex and the result it had.

There were three rapes or attempted rapes of vulnerable young women near Swanbourne Railway Station and Claremont Subway late at night between 1992-1994 by someone who was in all likelihood BRE because it's his hunting ground. They were blitz attacks as were the HH and KK victims. All premeditated sport in my opinion. Then later escalating to murder.

 

[BonzaRam]

There were three rapes or attempted rapes of vulnerable young women near Swanbourne Railway Station and Claremont Subway late at night between 1992-1994 by someone who was in all likelihood BRE because it's his hunting ground. They were blitz attacks as were the HH and KK victims. All premeditated sport in my opinion. Then later escalating to murder.

I agree, anyone carrying around a kit containing a hood, a gag and restraints etc that jumps out behind someone and uses said kit to incapacitate and silence that person then proceeds to carry them to a vehicle and drive them around until reaching/finding a spot to then molest and rape that person was not doing so because of rejection. It reeks of premeditation, and later (seen as DNA connects them) escalation to murder in response to, for want of a better word, "errors" he made in previous attempts.

 

[Countessa]

Firstly - the preference of knives could also be about noise control. Though I do recognise the Fear/Control message a knife uses.

The last bit is the crux of it all , though given the escalating behaviours then a death was on the cards. Whether it became about fantasy or about identification - or a mixture of the 2 - will only be truly known once someone sits on a pyschs couch

Edit: Added - The alleged circling of HH by a Telstra vehicle tells of identification control rather than fantasy control ie the removal of the KK victim would have been more about ''shutting her up'' rather than any desire to ''finish the fantasy'' - the circling was a panic move imo

He usually stuffed cloth into his victims' mouths for noise control.

 

[metic]

Usually we refer to her as KK so it was confusing.

Sorry yes it was confusing.
Posters should take more care with initials. Often no-one knows who it means

 

[Kurve]

Everyone always defends them and say "he never errs" etc.

Met, pretty sure I've never seen everyone defend the Post or Christian with 'he never errs' or even similar. I've seen a couple of errors over the years but in comparison to the competition generally more trustworthy by far.

I'm not inclined to hang him with the rest over the use of the word 'slash' overall I think it's a good article.

 

[Maurice Mitchell]

He usually stuffed cloth into his victims' mouths for noise control.

I’m guessing he means a knife as opposed to something louder like a gun.

 

[Maurice Mitchell]

If BE had some sort of coveted knife collection, wouldn’t that be directly relevant? Remember one Telstra witness said BE had “lost” his Telstra-issued knife, and the victims very likely suffered injuries caused by knives. I think there was something else, maybe rifles - something menacing enough to instil genuine fear. I don’t think knives though.

My first thought was trophies but I guess it would have to be fairly gruesome for it to instil fear or so weird that the boyfriend would probably have called the police.