Current Claremont Murders Discussion & Edwards trial updates

[Beatnicked]

Is this actually 1995? Marmion Ave wasn't extended through Eglington until 2008. It's labeled and looks like a road in your images, but is it just a road or a road reserve?

If it is 1995, I can see the bee hives positioned similar to 2019.

The area marked Marmion Ave is proposed and is as is on Landgate. I have applied zero labeling. All descriptors are Landgate applied.

The aerial is from 6 2 1995 and taken from Landgate's mosaic selection.

 

[Beatnicked]

View attachment 604251
This is from 2019 google maps and I used the co-ords from your close up as using the different co-ords above, it would have taken me further away. It doesn't look to be a loop track in the original land gate images Beat has posted from close to the 1996 discovery. Are these Land Gate photos correct time or is there no loop track.

That makes me question what the white smear is in your 2002 closeup? Also would the grass trees would be in the middle of a track and looks to me to have two legs, dark body and a light head, ... a person. What are the chances of that?
View attachment 604254

Area shown from Beat's Land Gate photos from 1996?
View attachment 604255

Your red circle is in incorrect area IMO. The correct area can be seen in police aerial in DM book. The power poles can be seen in that and prove the correct position. You can see all the cop cars etc as well. There are a couple of media photos around taken at ground level that show positioning with cop cars in same positions. There are also other cop aerials that show track on other side of road. I noted the pattern of the track.When all that is taken into consideration my markings appear to be correct.

I think the dark body you are referring to is a dark coloured plastic bag. The aerial appears to be taken before examination.

 

[Beatnicked]

I believe the loop track is not correct location. I stand to be corrected if someone can prove otherwise.

 

[Beatnicked]

I think your totally wrong & that you keep suggesting it is bewildering to me.
Do you truly believe he is suffering such a hideous & debilitating illness he should be totally devoid of any legal responsibility for his actions if found guilty & he has no awareness of the seriousness of the crimes he is accused of?

Is that how you really feel?

You're fortunate that you've not experienced severe mental illness up close & I know you havent if you believe for a second that someone who is so mentally impaired that killing another person isnt something they realise they shouldn't be doing or they cant comprehend the consequences for doing so or even if they just succumb to the voices egging them on at the time, they're not working fulltime at Telstra or anywhere at all. They're not running little athletics or doing anything else seemingly normal for any length of time either. Nor will their neighbours be surprised & describe them as someone who is friendly but keeps to themselves & nor will they have never come to the attention of the police before.

He wouldnt have been in jail the whole time either, he'd have been transferred to the Frankland Centre while they attempted to get him to a state mentally where they believed he may be able to pull it together enough to even be able to stand trial regardless if he was eventually found criminally responsible or not. Or it would be over already with a trial.*edit without a trial

If you've seen the docile levels some of the mentally ill are medicated to in order to be kept in jail, maybe you'll grasp how sick someone has to be before a judge will ever consider issuing a custody order detaining the accused in a hospital.

Please, a quick brush up on the requirements of the Criminal Law (Mentally Impaired) Act and you'll work out exactly why it wont happen yourself. Theres only 2 provisions that will allow it & they have very specific requirements I guarantee he doesnt meet now and probably never has.

I actually wrote the specific legal considerations out for you once before when you brought it up, but didnt post it. If you'd like to read the most relevant sections in order as it would apply here, I'll find it for you.

Minor correction....... BRE is in remand section. Do they have psych wards there? Are persons on remand transferred to Graylands for testing?

 

[Beatnicked]

I think your totally wrong & that you keep suggesting it is bewildering to me.
Do you truly believe he is suffering such a hideous & debilitating illness he should be totally devoid of any legal responsibility for his actions if found guilty & he has no awareness of the seriousness of the crimes he is accused of?

Is that how you really feel?

You're fortunate that you've not experienced severe mental illness up close & I know you havent if you believe for a second that someone who is so mentally impaired that killing another person isnt something they realise they shouldn't be doing or they cant comprehend the consequences for doing so or even if they just succumb to the voices egging them on at the time, they're not working fulltime at Telstra or anywhere at all. They're not running little athletics or doing anything else seemingly normal for any length of time either. Nor will their neighbours be surprised & describe them as someone who is friendly but keeps to themselves & nor will they have never come to the attention of the police before.

He wouldnt have been in jail the whole time either, he'd have been transferred to the Frankland Centre while they attempted to get him to a state mentally where they believed he may be able to pull it together enough to even be able to stand trial regardless if he was eventually found criminally responsible or not. Or it would be over already with a trial.*edit without a trial

If you've seen the docile levels some of the mentally ill are medicated to in order to be kept in jail, maybe you'll grasp how sick someone has to be before a judge will ever consider issuing a custody order detaining the accused in a hospital.

Please, a quick brush up on the requirements of the Criminal Law (Mentally Impaired) Act and you'll work out exactly why it wont happen yourself. Theres only 2 provisions that will allow it & they have very specific requirements I guarantee he doesnt meet now and probably never has.

I actually wrote the specific legal considerations out for you once before when you brought it up, but didnt post it. If you'd like to read the most relevant sections in order as it would apply here, I'll find it for you.

Far too calculating to be severely mentally ill at time alleged crimes. If he was that mentally ill he would never have controlled himself for 20 years.

 

[one eyed spy]

Minor correction....... BRE is in remand section. Do they have psych wards there? Are persons on remand transferred to Graylands for testing?

I doubt they move any to Graylands for assessment unless they're obviously too sick to stay in jail. They'd come to you & if you're managed & not being a problem, there wouldnt be reason to send you there at all I wouldnt think, or not for long if you were.

I know of 2 guys who are both in the Frankland Centre today who were transferred out of Hakea on really serious charges. One probably wont be going to trial but is likely to be shipped back to jail as soon as they can stabilise him. Id imagine the other will go to trial eventually then return to prison as well.

Its actually one of the requirements of an order detaining someone in hospital, there must be a real belief they can improve your mental state. If they dont think they can help you, I suppose the jail just deals with you themself as crazy as that sounds. They do literally medicate till the person doesnt really know whats going on, but they're no trouble & unlikely to hurt themselves or anyone else. Its really sad.

 

[FeelingThroaty]

I believe the loop track is not correct location. I stand to be corrected if someone can prove otherwise.

The loop track is correct. However the drawing pin location might be too far in. But not by much. Had been a while since I have been there but when I go there again I will GPS the location. Accurate to 3 metres.

 

[Kurve]

DNA evidence was specifically referenced in relation to Ms Glennon and the alleged Karrakatta Cemetery victim.
Ms Barbagallo said the prosecution would be relying on expert analysis provided by Pathwest, the Chem Centre and Cell Mark - a United Kingdom-based DNA firm specialising in relationship and sibling DNA testing."

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp...ial-as-date-set-for-2019-20181218-p50mx6.html

Thanks for this SB.

Taking an interest in a rush of solved cold cases, who could forget how the East Area Rapist was caught, by LE loading his DNA profile into an open source genealogy website and looking for matches.

Listening to criminology podcasts which details some of these solved cold cases using this method, I've noticed it often comes down to pinpointing siblings where the question then becomes, which one? DNA's then collected usually covertly, from a discarded item such as a cigarette butt or a can of drink to determine which brother (all male so far) it is.

While most of us believed that the EAR was the first cold case solved this way, I don't believe he was. Law enforcement has been accessing these open source databases since early 2015 and since sibling DNA features in the case against the alleged CSK, I think it's POSSIBLE particularly given the secrecy around how he was identified, this method might have been used.

Thread here also listing some recent cases solved this way:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/cold-cases-solved.1197548/

 

[Melsy]

View attachment 604251
This is from 2019 google maps and I used the co-ords from your close up as using the different co-ords above, it would have taken me further away. It doesn't look to be a loop track in the original land gate images Beat has posted from close to the 1996 discovery. Are these Land Gate photos correct time or is there no loop track.

That makes me question what the white smear is in your 2002 closeup? Also would the grass trees would be in the middle of a track and looks to me to have two legs, dark body and a light head, ... a person. What are the chances of that?


Area shown from Beat's Land Gate photos from 1996?
View attachment 604255

Due to the strewn rubbish, I would say that is not 1996.

 

[Melsy]

Area shown from Beat's Land Gate photos from 1996?
View attachment 604255

BlueE's is the 2017 dataset. Strewn rubbish as the metro housing spread and change in rubbish disposal policy

 

[Melsy]

Here is indicative track wear at the time of the crime

 

[Beatnicked]

The loop track is correct. However the drawing pin location might be too far in. But not by much. Had been a while since I have been there but when I go there again I will GPS the location. Accurate to 3 metres.

If you look at the electric pole in police aerial the loop track is too far east. Aerials don't lie they are proof. What are you relying on to prove the loop track?

 

[Beatnicked]

Here is indicative track wear at the time of the crime

We already know this what is your point.

 

[Beatnicked]

BlueE's is the 2017 dataset. Strewn rubbish as the metro housing spread and change in rubbish disposal policy

My aerial is 6 2 1995 so much more accurate. I believe your aerial is focused east of correct location.

 

[Willow weeps]

Thanks for this SB.

Taking an interest in a rush of solved cold cases, who could forget how the East Area Rapist was caught, by LE loading his DNA profile into an open source genealogy website and looking for matches.

Listening to criminology podcasts which details some of these solved cold cases using this method, I've noticed it often comes down to pinpointing siblings where the question then becomes, which one? DNA's then collected usually covertly, from a discarded item such as a cigarette butt or a can of drink to determine which brother (all male so far) it is.

While most of us believed that the EAR was the first cold case solved this way, I don't believe he was. Law enforcement has been accessing these open source databases since early 2015 and since sibling DNA features in the case against the alleged CSK, I think it's POSSIBLE particularly given the secrecy around how he was identified, this method might have been used.

Thread here also listing some recent cases solved this way:

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/cold-cases-solved.1197548/

I just finished listening to this podcast on Friday night

 

[frothin]

Any idea on how they identified his dna? They collected his brother's and then used familiar dna to match it to CSK but how did they obtain BRE dna? It would of had to be a legal way that will stand up in court. Possibly booze bus breathalyser straw??

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[FTY1]

Any idea on how they identified his dna? They collected his brother's and then used familiar dna to match it to CSK but how did they obtain BRE dna? It would of had to be a legal way that will stand up in court. Possibly booze bus breathalyser straw??

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

The legal way they collected it was after he was arrested is all that counts. How it is investigated and determined are another story.

 

[frothin]

The legal way they collected it was after he was arrested is all that counts. How it is investigated and determined are another story.

But surely to raid his property they would need to go before a judge to obtain a warrant in which they would have to provide enough evidence as to why they believe the accused is their man, they must of had more than just dna on him I suppose, he must of slipped up elsewhere

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[sprockets]

But surely to raid his property they would need to go before a judge to obtain a warrant in which they would have to provide enough evidence as to why they believe the accused is their man, they must of had more than just dna on him I suppose, he must of slipped up elsewhere

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

Remember they arrested him at the same time so would have had plenty of evidence for a search warrant.

 

[Beatnicked]

But surely to raid his property they would need to go before a judge to obtain a warrant in which they would have to provide enough evidence as to why they believe the accused is their man, they must of had more than just dna on him I suppose, he must of slipped up elsewhere

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

Probably had DNA which supported application for warrant issue. Then took his DNA again when warrant was served to verify eye-balled subject was 'owner' of matching DNA. They possibly took DNA samples from anyone connected to Acton.

The guy that attempted that abduction in 2007 (?) drove a particular vehicle didn't he? Didn't cops track him by cctv at servo he had used? Didn't cops say only 200 (?) or so matching vehicles in metro area? Could those vehicles have been specific issue telstra vehicles? They more than likely collected this dudes DNA.

 

[tryitout]

Oh my goodness I am shocked with what I have just discovered. In the case I am working on I was just checking out Landgate to find an historic aerial and thought I would just look for an aerial taken about the same time as the Claremont girls started disappearing. The closest date for an online aerial is 6 Feb 1995 which just happens to be be about a week before the young girl was abducted from Rowe Park. I am really shocked at what I have found in this Feb aerial.

There is a white car positioned just near the site where Ciara's remains were found in Pipidinny. Of course it may be just someone driving along the road, but hey it maybe a certain individual scoping out the area as well. Its a white car and looks like it has 2 sets of roof racks. I can't make out if it's a station wagon. Any of our 'experts' here care to give it a go to identify make and model?

I have uploaded a screen pic and marked where the bush is that the markers placed by the cops started and a very close approximate as to where Ciara's remains were discovered. How I did that was using a photo in the book I calculated a degree to where you can (just) see the heads of various cops standing near where Ciara's remains were. My degree calc started at the centre of the bush where the cops markers started. It's about 140 from the bush to the remains. The degree from the driver's side door is 120 to the remains.

The straight angled line that appears to cross the road is the shadow of an electrical pole. This same shadow appears in the photo in the book. There were quite dramatic landscape vegetation variations in just over 2 years.

From the Landgate info it appears the discovery site was on land destined to be private. The parcel of land is number (not lot no.) 201 Pipidinny Rd. I always thought this land was just general bushland.

I will post another wide-view aerial in a separate message. View attachment 604002

This car has white mirrors. Issue being that the majority of the cars made around the mid nineties all had black mirrors as standard (in standard models). Landcruiser, Hilux, Commodore, Falcon, Camry, Rodeo all had black mirrors as standard.

 

[Beatnicked]

This car has white mirrors. Issue being that the majority of the cars made around the mid nineties all had black mirrors as standard (in standard models). Landcruiser, Hilux, Commodore, Falcon, Camry, Rodeo all had black mirrors as standard.

There are loads of online pics with various1995 models with different coloured mirrors. Can you take a stab at what make n model the vehicle is?

The pic was taken Feb 1995 so its obvious a manufacturer used white mirrors. Nice pickup!

 

[Melsy]

The legal way they collected it was after he was arrested is all that counts. How it is investigated and determined are another story.

Probably had DNA which supported application for warrant issue. Then took his DNA again when warrant was served to verify eye-balled subject was 'owner' of matching DNA. They possibly took DNA samples from anyone connected to Acton.

The guy that attempted that abduction in 2007 (?) drove a particular vehicle didn't he? Didn't cops track him by cctv at servo he had used? Didn't cops say only 200 (?) or so matching vehicles in metro area? Could those vehicles have been specific issue telstra vehicles? They more than likely collected this dudes DNA.

Familial DNA would be one, then there is the history of residential addresses and occupation.

I don't even think the judge would have flinched at an arrest warrant then immediate DNA test, followed by a property search once they had a full DNA match.

 

[Melsy]

I was having the conversation at why police had not used the likes of the Ancestry database in familial tracking to an accused just weeks prior the arrest.

I was told that Ancestry policy meant police were not permitted to use the database. Not a police legal matter, an agreement with Ancestry customers.

Numerous news articles said, police had been retesting old evidence when they found a partial match with the criminal database. Namely the kimono held up in the picture.

I just don't know why so many users are ignorant of the news article which has been demonstrated more than once. Its like the users are trying to quash that someone else had a criminal record that bread crumbed its way to the current accused.

 

[Kurve]

Numerous news articles said, police had been retesting old evidence when they found a partial match with the criminal database. Namely the kimono held up in the picture.

I just don't know why so many users are ignorant of the news article which has been demonstrated more than once. Its like the users are trying to quash that someone else had a criminal record that bread crumbed its way to the current accused.

Where is this news article that says police found a 'partial' match on the kimono? The only article I can recall that even remotely indicated any such thing was a piece that said they matched the kimono sample dna to other attacks but that police have 'NEVER SAID' how they identified BRE and 'NEXT CAME FAMILIAL' after they connected the kimono as part of the process.

That does not exclude police using an open source genaeology website to find a familial that may not already be on their database. Your supposition relies on one of his male relatives being on the police database and it isn't necessarily so. imo.

Ancestry is not an open source genaeology website but others are, such as GedMatch.