Current Claremont Murders Discussion & Edwards trial updates

[JezzaPerth]

Are you referring to NF as the the lawyer friend of the Glennons who was Ciara's boss? If so he is the person who drove Ciara to the Conti on the night she went missing. I would think he is there more to give emotional support to the Glennon family as the horrific and graphic details of the case are laid out in Court.

He was present during the autopsy sections. The Glennons and Rimmers weren't. So his job was not support but for information, probably to keep the Glennons up to date.

 

[GreyCrow]

"There were three significant defects on Ciara's body, Ms Barbagallo told the court.

1. A 30cm long defect that travelled downward from her face at the right temple between ear and eye right down to the side of neck.
2. A 21cm long defect ran across the right hand side of her chest to her shoulder.
3. And a 12cm defect that turned upward across the top of her shoulder.

She said some of the injuries on Ciara's body came from a "sawing type action".
Ms Barbagallo said the injuries on Ciara's body were almost the same as the ones found on Jane Rimmer."

Apologies in advance

As a right handed person I interpret this as the victim being face down on the ground the perpetrator on top of the victims back

Pull the head back with my left hand and ( in the dark) swing my knife to the head area - first point of contact is the knife to just above the neck below the ear , this freezes the victim and also gives a reference point ( in the dark)

Once the knife reaches the shoulder area , I reach and find the body mass and pull towards the right shoulder. Once I locate the shoulder area I then aim for the neck

Injury 1 , 2 , 3

 

[trawlerman]

Luminol can determine the possible presence of blood and surely there was traces left on the ground, so why has there been no talk about it being used.

Copied from the internet: "Much of crime scene investigation, also called criminalistics, is based on the notion that nothing vanishes without a trace. This is particularly true of violent crime victims. A murderer can dispose of the victim's body and mop up the pools of blood, but without some heavy-duty cleaning chemicals, some evidence will remain. Tiny particles of blood will cling to most surfaces for years and years, without anyone ever knowing they're there.
The basic idea of luminol is to reveal these traces with alight-producing chemical reaction."

 

[kingswood71]

Pathologist opinions about prone or supine may come up later I guess. Dr. Cook will continue on the stand next week. He may be asked specifics. Then again, he may not if the reports haven't formed opinions about if the victims were likely face up or face down.
It could be something the defense may explore in cross IF they are going to argue that the wounds were more likely from a right handed person.

 

[kingswood71]

Luminol can determine the possible presence of blood and surely there was traces left on the ground, so why has there been no talk about it being used.

Copied from the internet: "Much of crime scene investigation, also called criminalistics, is based on the notion that nothing vanishes without a trace. This is particularly true of violent crime victims. A murderer can dispose of the victim's body and mop up the pools of blood, but without some heavy-duty cleaning chemicals, some evidence will remain. Tiny particles of blood will cling to most surfaces for years and years, without anyone ever knowing they're there.
The basic idea of luminol is to reveal these traces with alight-producing chemical reaction."

In regards to testing what?

 

[JezzaPerth]

Pathologist opinions about prone or supine may come up later I guess. Dr. Cook will continue on the stand next week. He may be asked specifics. Then again, he may not if the reports haven't formed opinions about if the victims were likely face up or face down.
It could be something the defense may explore in cross IF they are going to argue that the wounds were more likely from a right handed person.

I did notice Dr Cook was careful to explain livor mortis and the possibility the pattern seen may have developed at some other location and the body moved subsequently.

The livor mortis seen was on the front / downward facing portion of Rimmer's body, which basically says the body was face down after death.

 

[trawlerman]

So there was some time spent after not just in covering the girls with branches and foliage but he seems to have stayed unrattled, he cleaned up and removed what he didn't want left behind including the restraints.

I think that's important.

It's incredible to think a murderer has the calmness and presence of mind to pack up and leave without a trace as the time adds to the risk of being seen.
Perhaps he knew, after JR screamed and he moved his car up the road, that time was short and was in a hurry to get away which accounts for the watch on the road and the knife nearby.

 

[trawlerman]

In regards to testing what?

Blood on the ground.

 

[kingswood71]

Blood on the ground.

At the scene the body was found at or elsewhere?
It wouldnt offer much at the scene that they didnt already know. Except maybe if JR was dragged from somewhere else after death.

 

[Countessa]

Thats a good question especially when he was down in Dawesville to meet up with the Cooks at around 11am. If scratched on face, you'd think the Cooks would have recalled a scratch in their evidence. If on an arm, maybe a small scratch that wasnt noticed or perhaps long sleeves? If CG scratched him hard enough and fought enough to break fingernails, then should have been a decent scratch.

In three of the photos of him that have been published, he's wearing a beard and we've heard that he fluctuated between wearing a beard and being clean shaven. Am not sure we know whether he had beard when Ciara went missing. If he was scratched on the face it'd be easier to hide scratches under a beard. Was really hoping the Dawesville witnesses were going to mention scratches on his face or body when they testified.

 

[Kurve]

It's incredible to think a murderer has the calmness and presence of mind to pack up and leave without a trace as the time adds to the risk of being seen.
Perhaps he knew, after JR screamed and he moved his car up the road, that time was short and was in a hurry to get away which accounts for the watch on the road and the knife nearby.

It reminds me a bit of him leaving the KK victim to walk off in one direction and then the other? Looking for something he might have lost out of his pocket or dropped maybe.

 

[JezzaPerth]

It reminds me a bit of him leaving the KK victim to walk off in one direction and then the other? Looking for something he might have lost out of his pocket or dropped maybe.

You are giving him a degree of cunning I don't think he has.

His first attack in Huntingdale was plain stupid, as was his prowling around the neighbourhood. Completely careless and by unknown good fortune never caught.

Then the Hollwodd Hospital attack was pure impulse, no planning, no thought of the consequences. He got caught that time but basically got let off.

His predatory behaviour seems to have developed in the 90s and he brazenly drove around in a work car propositioning women. Again, miraculously not caught.

The attack on KK was similarly erratic. He had no plan, certainly not one that included cleaning up the evidence. He left his DNA everywhere.

For the two death scenes, he left behing incriminating evidence, especially at the Rimmer site. Again pure luck prevented him being ID'd. In fact, since it's likely he was MM he even walked in front of the cameras and would have been aware that before he killed Rimmer.

My conclusion: He's an impulse predator. An incredibly lucky impulse predator backed up by some ability to keep his car clean. He started off doing weird perveted stuff and later appears to have enjoyed prowling the Western Suburbs for drunk women. He deliberatley set himself in situations where he could commit sex crimes. The transition to murder wouldn't have been hard after at least one violent rape (I'm sure there were more attacks but unreported)

 

[Countessa]

So there was some time spent after not just in covering the girls with branches and foliage but he seems to have stayed unrattled, he cleaned up and removed what he didn't want left behind including the restraints.

I think that's important.

He comes across as a very meticulous person eg his filing methods at his home and keeping his bank records for so long. The fact that his job is a technician and that he stated on his application when he applied for a promotion that the enjoys restoring cars reinforces that too imo.

 

[trawlerman]

You are giving him a degree of cunning I don't think he has.

That's what Lindy Chamberlain said to the judge and she was right.
I think in this case shellyg is right, when you see him sitting there twiddling his pencil as tho he doesn't have a care in the world. That's taking contempt, cunning and lying to the nth degree. I'd say quite capable of having the presence of mind and not panicking after just committing some of the most violent crimes imaginable.

 

[Kurve]

You are giving him a degree of cunning I don't think he has.

Not sure a suggestion he was looking for something he might have dropped pacing around a rape scene on it's own indicates any level of cunning. It remains though he was distracted by something and that likely would be self interest.

His first attack in Huntingdale was plain stupid, as was his prowling around the neighbourhood. Completely careless and by unknown good fortune never caught.

Then the Hollwodd Hospital attack was pure impulse, no planning, no thought of the consequences. He got caught that time but basically got let off.

His predatory behaviour seems to have developed in the 90s and he brazenly drove around in a work car propositioning women. Again, miraculously not caught.

Absolutely, agree totally.

The attack on KK was similarly erratic. He had no plan, certainly not one that included cleaning up the evidence. He left his DNA everywhere.

I lean towards thinking he did have a plan that went awry for some reason that only he can explain. He stalked that girl and laid in wait, he had time to think about what he was going to do, how he was going to do it and he was prepared with hood and bindings.

For the two death scenes, he left behing incriminating evidence, especially at the Rimmer site. Again pure luck prevented him being ID'd. In fact, as it's likely he was MM he even walked in front of the cameras and would have been aware that before he killed Rimmer.

A Telstra knife up and across the road somewhere with no evidence on it? It's not bad but it's not great either.

My conclusion: He's an impulse predator. An incredibly lucky impulse predator backed up by some ability to keep his car clean. He started off doing weird perveted stuff and later appears to have enjoyed prowling the Western Suburbs for drunk women. He deliberatley set himself in situations where he could commit sex crimes. The transition to murder wouldn't have been hard after at least one violent rape (I'm sure there were more attacks but unreported)

More luck than most would believe was sheer luck imo. There was planning that went into the last three murders, he got better at it in his evolution. If it wasn't for advances in science he couldn't have anticipated after the KK rape, we might still be sitting here wondering if it was Lance Williams after all.

 

[JezzaPerth]

That's what Lindy Chamberlain said to the judge and she was right.
I think in this case shellyg is right, when you see him sitting there twiddling his pencil as tho he doesn't have a care in the world. That's taking contempt, cunning and lying to the nth degree. I'd say quite capable of having the presence of mind and not panicking after just committing some of the most violent crimes imaginable.

I watched him carefully yesterday during the autopsy videos. He avoided the screen and became intent on his notepad. Scribbling hard but clearly not notes. He was leaning into his pad so hard his head was significantly lowered.

He was obviously not comfortable having to watch the gory results of his handiwork.

 

[trawlerman]

I watched him carefully yesterday during the autopsy videos. He avoided the screen and became intent on his notepad. Scribbling hard but clearly not notes. He was leaning into his pad so hard his head was significantly lowered.

He was obviously not comfortable having to watch the gory results of his handiwork.

But he's listening and re-living the events. He can't get to his stash of keepsakes and this trial is fuelling his sick mind. Make it hard for him to hear what's going on and it would drive him crazy.

BTW Why haven't prostitutes been called. He withdrew about $200 from his account every couple of days and I would imagine it was to pay for sex. There's nothing to suggest his motive to abduct the girls was for sex. Instead of all those contradicting witnesses in the first month, perhaps it should have been developed that BRE is a sex fiend and just lucky his semen wasn't found on the two bodies.

 

[JezzaPerth]

I lean towards thinking he did have a plan that went awry for some reason that only he can explain. He stalked that girl and laid in wait, he had time to think about what he was going to do, how he was going to do it and he was prepared with hood and bindings.

Having the clothes line for binding is the only thing that counts towards premeditation. However I personally have used the same type of clothesline as a draw wire in telecoms conduit (shh don't tell ACMA) It's pretty strong, doesn't rust and is cheap. So I won't discount him having a roll in his van for just that purpose.

 

[Kurve]

Having the clothes line for binding is the only thing that counts towards premeditation. However I personally have used the same type of clothesline as a draw wire in telecoms conduit (shh don't tell ACMA) It's pretty strong, doesn't rust and is cheap. So I won't discount him having a roll in hs van for just that purpose.

I'll assume yours isn't all in cut lengths twisted up in elaborate psycho knots.

 

[trawlerman]

At the scene the body was found at or elsewhere?
It wouldnt offer much at the scene that they didnt already know. Except maybe if JR was dragged from somewhere else after death.

I would say test the ground between the road and where the two bodies were found and luminol would pick up traces of blood. Unfortunately, every man and his dog were trampling the area and would make finding clues more difficult.

I don't think the crime scenes have offered anything - a few fibres and luckily a very small amount of BRE's DNA under two fingernails.

Endeavor, or inspector Morse would have found a truck load of evidence. WA police simply didn't know what they were doing.

 

[Countessa]

I watched him carefully yesterday during the autopsy videos. He avoided the screen and became intent on his notepad. Scribbling hard but clearly not notes. He was leaning into his pad so hard his head was significantly lowered.

He was obviously not comfortable having to watch the gory results of his handiwork.

Was there any other body language you noticed eg covering his mouth at times?

 

[JezzaPerth]

Was there any other body language you noticed eg covering his mouth at times?

He rested his head on his hand a lot. I didn't notice any mouth covering. His glasses were placed on dock wall in front of him - rather pecarioulsy.

I was watching his entry and exit looking for a small smile. Over the times I've watched him, he only once had a look on his face as though he'd beaten the system in some way. Other times just a faint smile.

The only time he reacted yesterday was mention of the Rimmer earrings. A little jolt.

 

[javaguice]

All I know is that was how Anita Cobby was killed and she had the same injuries.

I'm with you bro... Regardless your gonna have your arms out and it more depends on the angle of attack from there on.

 

[kingswood71]

He rested his head on his hand a lot. I didn't notice any mouth covering. His glasses were placed on dock wall in front of him - rather pecarioulsy.

I was watching his entry and exit looking for a small smile. Over the times I've watched him, he only once had a look on his face as though he'd beaten the system in some way. Other times just a faint smile.

The only time he reacted yesterday was mention of the Rimmer earrings. A little jolt.

Where earrings missing? Cant recall if they have been mentioned?

 

[javaguice]

Re the DNA under the fingernails, I'd be interested to know on which part of the body Ciara scratched the murderer while she was fighting for her life.

Scratches to his forearm I would guess. But depends on when it happened. I'm guessing all the trauma to the fingers etc, the missing tip and broken nails all happened when trying to stop the neck cutting...