Current Claremont Murders - The Bunker

[BonzaRam]

All I can see with that high definition photo, is all the people standing around the body, possibly contaminating some evidence and destroying other evidence.
There is no possible excuse for having so many people being so close - it wasn't a forensic training exercise.
Who on earth were all those people and why did they all have to be there doing nothing at the same time.
No wonder so many things have got stuffed up.

Hmmm, how many people do you think it should take to examine a body, collect evidence, log that evidence. search the area etc. I see 6 people near the body, the rest are observers, from a safe distance.

What did they stuffed up? From what i have seen and heard so far the protocols in place at the time where followed.

 

[JWS2019]

Hmmm, how many people do think it should take to examine a body, collect evidence, log that that evidence. search the area etc. I see 6 people near the body, the rest are observers, from a safe distance.

What did they stuffed up? From what i have seen and heard so far the protocols in place at the time where followed.

In fairness to OP there does seem to be a lot of people (considering most witnesses stated they were not near the body) need to check that reference sheet.
There was also a lot of minor errors that perhaps with hindsight been avoided with less people.

 

[trawlerman]

Hmmm, how many people do you think it should take to examine a body, collect evidence, log that evidence. search the area etc. I see 6 people near the body, the rest are observers, from a safe distance.

What did they stuffed up? From what i have seen and heard so far the protocols in place at the time where followed.

What they stuffed up was the examination of the body.
You are right to justify the existence of 100 police officers and a chennel 7 camera crew marching all over the site because idiots need as many friends as they can get.
I would say every bit of evidence taken from the site was marked, labelled, and identified wrongly.
We must be looking at different court cases.
How many police officers does it take to change a light globe - about 100 because none of them know what they're doing.
Common sense takes over from protocols when you allow onlookers to watch for their own merriment from a safe distance a body that has not been properly examined.
And I don't think it's protocol to use the downdraft of two helicopters to remove the branches covering a body.

 

[Kurve]

No wonder Debbie Marshall targeted Dave Caporn in her book! He was absolutely useless.

I also get it that whenever the police do a presser or make a statement to the media, they're not really talking to us first. They're playing to the offender first and informing the public second but what on earth was the message they were trying to give this serial killer with that nonsense?

 

[Countessa]

I also get it that whenever the police do a presser or make a statement to the media, they're not really talking to us first. They're playing to the offender first and informing the public second but what on earth was the message they were trying to give this serial killer with that nonsense?

Not really sure of the message they were trying to give the serial killer but with their tunnel vision they focussed their attention on Lance Williams and overtly tailed him for two years under Caporn without following up other leads from suspects. They said the killings stopped once they had found their man - who they believed was Williams - thereby preventing further murders. They must have been waiting for a full confession believing he would reveal all under police pressure which didn't happen because he was innocent. They were leaking stuff to the press for reasons unknown and deceiving the public that they had their man. A complete botch up under Caporn's direction.

 

[Kurve]

Not really sure of the message they were trying to give the serial killer but with their tunnel vision they focussed their attention on Lance Williams and overtly tailed him for two years under Caporn without following up other leads from suspects. They said the killings stopped once they had found their man - who they believed was Williams - thereby preventing further murders. They must have been waiting for a full confession believing he would reveal all under police pressure which didn't happen because he was innocent. They were leaking stuff to the press for reasons unknown and deceiving the public that they had their man. A complete botch up under Caporn's direction.

I wonder if Caporn will have to take the stand?

 

[Countessa]

I wonder if Caporn will have to take the stand?

Hope not. He has no credibility IMO especially since he set another man up on another murder charge - Andrew Mallard. Another "dud investigation" to quote John Quigley.

 

[zedx]

I wonder if Caporn will have to take the stand?

I suppose it is a possibility. But could you imagine it? I'm sure he would spin some sort of story to justify himself though!!

 

[BonzaRam]

What they stuffed up was the examination of the body.
You are right to justify the existence of 100 police officers and a chennel 7 camera crew marching all over the site because idiots need as many friends as they can get.
I would say every bit of evidence taken from the site was marked, labelled, and identified wrongly.
We must be looking at different court cases.
How many police officers does it take to change a light globe - about 100 because none of them know what they're doing.
Common sense takes over from protocols when you allow onlookers to watch for their own merriment from a safe distance a body that has not been properly examined.
And I don't think it's protocol to use the downdraft of two helicopters to remove the branches covering a body.

Can you exaggerate any more? What you say and what is fact are two different things...

You are right to justify the existence of 100 police officers and a chennel 7 (sic) camera crew marching all over the site because idiots need as many friends as they can get.
What channel 7 CREW marched all over the site?

I would say every bit of evidence taken from the site was marked, labelled, and identified wrongly.
Every bit, really?

We must be looking at different court cases.
No it's the same case, interpretation is what is different.

How many police officers does it take to change a light globe - about 100 because none of them know what they're doing.
Getting close to the DNA evidence now, are you worried?

Common sense takes over from protocols when you allow onlookers to watch for their own merriment from a safe distance a body that has not been properly examined.
The onlookers from a distance have been revealed for who they were, and were involved in the case in one way or another. Yes even the FBI Profilers...

And I don't think it's protocol to use the downdraft of two helicopters to remove the branches covering a body.
Oops, seems it is protocol to take aerial photographs, not too mention journalists sticking their noses where it is not wanted.

"He said after they placed the cones they made their way back to Pipidinny Road where they spoke with Snr Const. Hyde to organise aerial photographs with a police helicopter."

 

[trawlerman]

In fairness to OP there does seem to be a lot of people (considering most witnesses stated they were not near the body) need to check that reference sheet.
There was also a lot of minor errors that perhaps with hindsight been avoided with less people.

Couldn't have said it better myself.
It stands to reason that sloppy work in the field then translates to poor results in the lab where it is not understood the importance of some exhibits.
Some exhibit could become lost, others stand in the corner for decades and that sort of thing.
It all stems from good detective work at the scene where evidence is properly identified and handled.
Precious little of that was going on amongst all those standing around gawking at a dead body with helicopters flying overhead to get photos that can't even identify where the body is located
It was probably the scene of the murder and they wouldn't know after all the foot traffic. Same thing happened at JR's I suppose.

 

[trawlerman]

Can you exaggerate any more? What you say and what is fact are two different things...

You are right to justify the existence of 100 police officers and a chennel 7 (sic) camera crew marching all over the site because idiots need as many friends as they can get.
What channel 7 CREW marched all over the site?

I would say every bit of evidence taken from the site was marked, labelled, and identified wrongly.
Every bit, really?

We must be looking at different court cases.
No it's the same case, interpretation is what is different.

How many police officers does it take to change a light globe - about 100 because none of them know what they're doing.
Getting close to the DNA evidence now, are you worried?

Common sense takes over from protocols when you allow onlookers to watch for their own merriment from a safe distance a body that has not been properly examined.
The onlookers from a distance have been revealed for who they were, and were involved in the case in one way or another. Yes even the FBI Profilers...

And I don't think it's protocol to use the downdraft of two helicopters to remove the branches covering a body.
Oops, seems it is protocol to take aerial photographs, not too mention journalists sticking their noses where it is not wanted.

"He said after they placed the cones they made their way back to Pipidinny Road where they spoke with Snr Const. Hyde to organise aerial photographs with a police helicopter."

Your responses epitomise exactly why police investigations in WA have not progressed from the bad old days when they shot people and fabricated evidence.

WA police will also respond to criticism in one of three ways - deny the allegations, discredit the person making the allegations or sue the person making the allegations.

They never say they're wrong and they never say sorry.

With that sort of mentality still in the force today, they will continue to get investigations majorly wrong, just like they have done in the CSK case.

The only thing that will convict BRE is the statement of the expert DNA person from the UK. Without him all those years of time wasting by police was money down the drain and a conviction would not be possible.

Pick the eyes out of that lot, Bonza

 

[zedx]

Couldn't have said it better myself.
It stands to reason that sloppy work in the field then translates to poor results in the lab where it is not understood the importance of some exhibits.
Some exhibit could become lost, others stand in the corner for decades and that sort of thing.
It all stems from good detective work at the scene where evidence is properly identified and handled.
Precious little of that was going on amongst all those standing around gawking at a dead body with helicopters flying overhead to get photos that can't even identify where the body is located
It was probably the scene of the murder and they wouldn't know after all the foot traffic. Same thing happened at JR's I suppose.

Agree it certainly would have been done very differently today, may have even been done very differently if some one else was in charge!! But definitely agree that, even for that era there were far to many people walking near the crime scene and why on earth would you need that many people standing by watching, you would have thought they would have been kept to the road way.

 

[BonzaRam]

Couldn't have said it better myself.
It stands to reason that sloppy work in the field then translates to poor results in the lab where it is not understood the importance of some exhibits.
Some exhibit could become lost, others stand in the corner for decades and that sort of thing.
It all stems from good detective work at the scene where evidence is properly identified and handled.
Precious little of that was going on amongst all those standing around gawking at a dead body with helicopters flying overhead to get photos that can't even identify where the body is located
It was probably the scene of the murder and they wouldn't know after all the foot traffic. Same thing happened at JR's I suppose.

"It stands to reason that sloppy work in the field then translates to poor results in the lab where it is not understood the importance of some exhibits."
So now it is only some not all...
"Some exhibit could become lost, others stand in the corner for decades and that sort of thing."
When did the police get the ability to speed up time? How were they meant to analyze evidence without the technology to be able to do so at the time? Again some not all...

"Precious little of that was going on amongst all those standing around gawking at a dead body with helicopters flying overhead to get photos that can't even identify where the body is located"
LMAO , you can tell that from a still photo? I call bullshit on that ability. Curious though, how do you know which helicopter it was that got too low? Police helicopters are experienced at taking overhead photos,what are media helicopters experienced at?
I can see where the body is from that photo, why can't you? More importantly i can also see where people were standing at the crime scene.

"It all stems from good detective work at the scene where evidence is properly identified and handled."
and that is why DNA and Fibre evidence will sink him. Geez what you would call that? gathering evidence that so little was known about at time and would only come into play years down the track? Thinking ahead is it?

The only thing that will convict BRE is the statement of the expert DNA person from the UK. Without him all those years of time wasting by police was money down the drain and a conviction would not be possible.
What year was it that BRE's DNA was connected to the CSK murders? and again when did the police gain the ability to control time?

"Your responses epitomise exactly why police investigations in WA have not progressed from the bad old days when they shot people and fabricated evidence."
Really? So my questioning your logic has an affect on how the police operate, righttttttt. Actually i would say it is blind hatred of an entire organisation that creates an environment where some people in that organisation react badly to the unjust constant ridicule.
The concept of hating everyone of the same ilk because of the actions of one or a few is what drives many serial killers, like in this case, the murder of strangers who had no part in causing the anger in the perpetrator.

 

[trawlerman]

"It stands to reason that sloppy work in the field then translates to poor results in the lab where it is not understood the importance of some exhibits."
So now it is only some not all...
"Some exhibit could become lost, others stand in the corner for decades and that sort of thing."
When did the police get the ability to speed up time? How were they meant to analyze evidence without the technology to be able to do so at the time? Again some not all...

"Precious little of that was going on amongst all those standing around gawking at a dead body with helicopters flying overhead to get photos that can't even identify where the body is located"
LMAO , you can tell that from a still photo? I call bullshit on that ability. Curious though, how do you know which helicopter it was that got too low? Police helicopters are experienced at taking overhead photos,what are media helicopters experienced at?
I can see where the body is from that photo, why can't you? More importantly i can also see where people were standing at the crime scene.

"It all stems from good detective work at the scene where evidence is properly identified and handled."
and that is why DNA and Fibre evidence will sink him. Geez what you would call that? gathering evidence that so little was known about at time and would only come into play years down the track? Thinking ahead is it?

The only thing that will convict BRE is the statement of the expert DNA person from the UK. Without him all those years of time wasting by police was money down the drain and a conviction would not be possible.
What year was it that BRE's DNA was connected to the CSK murders? and again when did the police gain the ability to control time?

Hopefully, you will also start to criticise police for what they did when BRE is found not guilty of perhaps two of the murders they charged him with.
Defending police for the way they stuffed things up in their investigations is outrageous and irresponsible.
I reckon anyone with half a brain could have done a better job.

 

[BonzaRam]

Hopefully, you will also start to criticise police for what they did when BRE is found not guilty of perhaps two of the murders they charged him with.
Defending police for the way they stuffed things up in their investigations is outrageous and irresponsible.
I reckon anyone with half a brain could have done a better job.

Actually have criticized specific actions of specific people involved and have said right from the start that he won't be convicted of the SS disappearance. I have never changed my stance on that and am not likely to.

 

[PaulSubetro]

Massive delay? Not a long as it takes you to answer a question, odd seen as you spend so much time demanding others answer your questions...

Wanna try again?

DNA links Karrakatta to Claremont victim: Prosecution

A senior forensic scientist took the stand to talk about a rape committed by accused Claremont serial killer Bradley Robert Edwards. RECAP TODAY’S EVENTS

thewest.com.au

If you're going to go someone, you best make sure you know your stuff.

 

[trawlerman]

Actually have criticized specific actions of specific people involved and have said right from the start that he won't be convicted of the SS disappearance. I have never changed my stance on that and am not likely to.

From your previous two replies, you obviously took exception to many of the things I have said that I believe police have done horribly wrong in the investigation.
Could you give me the opportunity to respond to what you have to say by you posting things that you believe police have done well in the CSK case.

 

[BonzaRam]

DNA links Karrakatta to Claremont victim: Prosecution

A senior forensic scientist took the stand to talk about a rape committed by accused Claremont serial killer Bradley Robert Edwards. RECAP TODAY’S EVENTS

thewest.com.au

If you're going to go someone, you best make sure you know your stuff.

A media headline?

or court transcript?
"When asked if it was his opinion that the injuries to Jane and Ciara's wrists and forearms were consistent with the women defending themselves before they were killed, he said: "It is a common location to sustain defense type injuries."

"That information isn’t new to the trial, but it’s significant because it’s the first time an expert witness has been asked about - and explained - injuries inflicted on both women as a collective."
As a collective, meaning as a generalization rather individual actions.

I have no doubt they both defended themselves as best they could (as in try to ward off any blows coming at them). I see nothing to indicating JR went beyond trying to defend herself, but with CG the fingernails indicate she did go beyond just defending and struck back.

Anyways Paul i never said anything about the tampon scenario simply because you said, in the forum, to drop it before i had a chance to. I will now though, good call, i was wrong on that and you were right, kudos to you.
When it comes to this i think we just have a different definition of fighting back.

 

[trawlerman]

If you're going to go someone, you best make sure you know your stuff.

That's what I've also been trying to tell Bonza.
PS Edit: This place reminds me of watching Survivor on TV. Allegiances and alliances change in a fluid way.
I never thought I'd be agreeing with you, Paul - on anything. (Although I was concerned when you didn't post for a while - maybe too much friction with Shelly, I thought).
Then, I was also worried about power raid not posting, but he was OK and just taking a sabbatical.
I got on famously with tapdancer before he saw the light about me being a turn coat. Maybe my next friend will be Bonza.
If we're not careful, however, we could all self destruct with infighting and the last man standing may be BRE and even on Survivor nothing as bad as that ever happens.

 

[Kurve]

DNA links Karrakatta to Claremont victim: Prosecution

A senior forensic scientist took the stand to talk about a rape committed by accused Claremont serial killer Bradley Robert Edwards. RECAP TODAY’S EVENTS

thewest.com.au

If you're going to go someone, you best make sure you know your stuff.

You went back two weeks to drag this up and poke someone in the eye with it.

 

[BonzaRam]

From your previous two replies, you obviously took exception to many of the things I have said that I believe police have done horribly wrong in the investigation.
Could you give me the opportunity to respond to what you have to say by you posting things that you believe police have done well in the CSK case.

But you haven't said what the police done wrong, you made broad accusations but that is it. You did say the helicopter was mistake, yes, but you didn't mention which helicopter police or media and how do you know which one it was, to add to that do you think the helicopter at the JR sight was also a mistake?

What channel 7 CREW marched all over the site?
There was no channel 7 crew marching all over the site was there? The one person that tried to enter the site was stopped, by police. Is effectively securing an area good police work?

Anyways good police work -
Securing crime scenes
Taking statements
Searching surrounding areas
Collecting Evidence - unless you think it shouldn't be done - with or without mistakes.
Maintaining the chain of evidence after such a long time period passed.
Removing corrupt and sloppy investigators and researchers (Caporn, and Webb come to mind).
Maintaining constant contact with the victims families
We could go on and on but in the end the best part is they connected the dots, as technology over time made that possible, which lead to putting a very likely suspect in court.

 

[PaulSubetro]

I wouldn't think too deeply about it. BRE had a ready supply of Telstra knives and to me there's no indication that they weren't the murder weapon.
Not that he was ever seen, but he would be a bit of a drongo going around and around Claremont in circles with tie wire, rifles, knives and gags on the seat next to him. Not that police picking him up would ever look on the seat next to him.

I wonder what happened to the suspect from CIA who drove around with a gun under his seat?

Could it be the same person spotted in Highgate by Con Bayens (sp?)?

 

[trawlerman]

But you haven't said what the police done wrong, you made broad accusations but that is it. You did say the helicopter was mistake, yes, but you didn't mention which helicopter police or media and how do you know which one it was, to add to that do you think the helicopter at the JR sight was also a mistake?

What channel 7 CREW marched all over the site?
There was no channel 7 crew marching all over the site was there? The one person that tried to enter the site was stopped, by police. Is effectively securing an area good police work?

Anyways good police work -
Securing crime scenes
Taking statements
Searching surrounding areas
Collecting Evidence - unless you think it shouldn't be done - with or without mistakes.
Maintaining the chain of evidence after such a long time period passed.
Removing corrupt and sloppy investigators and researchers (Caporn, and Webb come to mind).
Maintaining constant contact with the victims families
We could go on and on but in the end the best part is they connected the dots, as technology over time made that possible, which lead to putting a very likely suspect in court.

You made a spelling error, Bonza.
It should be led and not lead.
When you pick up other people's spelling (as you did in my post today) then you need to make sure you don't make any mistakes as it casts doubt on everything you say.
And I would certainly cast doubt on everything you said in regards to how wonderful you view police and all the good work they have done in WA, especially in the thorough way they waited patiently for 20 years for improvements to DNA methods (that hasn't even been tested in court yet).

 

[BonzaRam]

That's what I've also been trying to tell Bonza.
PS Edit: This place reminds me of watching Survivor on TV. Allegiances and alliances change in a fluid way.
I never thought I'd be agreeing with you, Paul - on anything. (Although I was concerned when you didn't post for a while - maybe too much friction with Shelly, I thought).
Then, I was also worried about power raid not posting, but he was OK and just taking a sabbatical.
I got on famously with tapdancer before he saw the light about me being a turn coat. Maybe my next friend will be Bonza.
If we're not careful, however, we could all self destruct with infighting and the last man standing may be BRE and even on Survivor nothing as bad as that ever happens.

It has nothing to do with being friends or enemies or alliances. Just because i disagree with some things you say doesn't mean i all of a sudden don't like you, i don't know you (or anyone else here) well enough to make that call. It means i don't agree with what you are saying in that instant, nothing more nothing less.

 

[BonzaRam]

You made a spelling error, Bonza.
It should be led and not lead.
When you pick up other people's spelling (as you did in my post today) then you need to make sure you don't make any mistakes as it casts doubt on everything you say.
And I would certainly cast doubt on everything you said in regards to how wonderful you view police and all the good work they have done in WA, especially in the thorough way they waited patiently for 20 years for improvements to DNA methods (that hasn't even been tested in court yet).

"It should be led and not lead." My mistake , thanks for the correction

"And I would certainly cast doubt on everything you said in regards to how wonderful you view police and all the good work they have done in WA"
Moving the goal posts again? You asked about the CSK case not all of WA., but by all means cast doubt...

"Could you give me the opportunity to respond to what you have to say by you posting things that you believe police have done well in the CSK case. "