Current Claremont Murders - The Bunker

[BFew]

CSK trial postponed for 24 hours reports Tim Clarke.
Someone major in the trial is unwell
BRE was brought in for the trial reportedly
Alison Fan speculates that someone as important as the prosecutor might be sick today.

Claremont trial experts weigh in

The team of reporters behind a leading podcast series on WA’s trial of the century will join The West Live host Jenna Clarke, ahead of the Claremont serial killings closing submissions.

thewest.com.au

The West Live podcast with Ben O'Shea

It’s live, it’s local, it’s Perth news as you’ve never heard it before.

thewest.com.au

 

[zedx]

Is there any indication that he’ll give up the whereabouts of Sarah Spiers and any other victim(s)?

No, none at all and IMO it would not be of any major benefit to him atm.

 

[Krusty Crab]

Allison fan speculates a lot and passes it off as journalism. Can't stand her personally.

I'm guessing they only need 5 people to do closing arguments- the accused, lead prosecutor, lead defence, a court stenographer, and the judge? or does the lack of availability of anyone else have an impact?

 

[JezzaPerth]

Allison fan speculates a lot and passes it off as journalism. Can't stand her personally.

I'm guessing they only need 5 people to do closing arguments- the accused, lead prosecutor, lead defence, a court stenographer, and the judge? or does the lack of availability of anyone else have an impact?

The courts have a principle that in almost all cases the public can view the entire process to ensure that justice is not only done but is seen to be done.

In the CSK case it was very unusual that sensitive images and videos were not seen by the public gallery.

A closed court sans public and press would not ensure justice is seen to be done.

(P.S. I agree on Fan)

 

[Likeamystery]

Allison fan speculates a lot and passes it off as journalism. Can't stand her personally.

I'm guessing they only need 5 people to do closing arguments- the accused, lead prosecutor, lead defence, a court stenographer, and the judge? or does the lack of availability of anyone else have an impact?

I've seen Alison a couple of times, in Perth, doing her job. It was very disheartening to be peered at, as though I was so beneath her.
Thinking about it, has anyone ever seen her smile?

 

[JezzaPerth]

I've seen Alison a couple of times, in Perth, doing her job. It was very disheartening to be peered at, as though I was so beneath her.
Thinking about it, has anyone ever seen her smile?

Every now and then she turns and scans the entire public gallery with a stony face. She has the gaze of the Eye of Sauron in Mordor.

 

[Deva]

Every now and then she turns and scans the entire public gallery with a stony face. She has the gaze of the Eye of Mordor.

I had to take the lift down with her one day and a guy pushed in quickly before it closed. I thought it was funny but she didn’t even crack a smile, he just got the stare.

 

[BFew]

Anyone going tomorrow?

 

[JezzaPerth]

I visited the Pipidinny Rd murder site today - in lieu of any court hearing but mainly because I had business nearby.

It's an almost perfect site for a murder. Miles away from any households and on a usually low traffic road (at least at night, during the day it's a vehicle every minute or so)

My first impression is that the location wasn't random. The entrance track is almost invisible to passing traffic however it's well known as there is a lot of dumped rubbish. Further East on Pipidinny there is a horse/riding farm. Perhaps a clue?

My gut feeling is that the location was scouted before the Ciara murder. The actual murder required turning into the track a bit and then taking Ciara tens of metres slightly downhill through scrub in pitch darkness. Perhaps a torch was required but maybe starlight was enough? If it had been scouted this would not have been such a problem.

 

[Likeamystery]

I visited the Pipidinny Rd murder site today - in lieu of any court hearing but mainly because I had business nearby.

It's an almost perfect site for a murder. Miles away from any households and on a usually low traffic road (at least at night, during the day it's a vehicle every minute or so)

My first impression is that the location wasn't random. The entrance track is almost invisible to passing traffic however it's well known as there is a lot of dumped rubbish. Further East on Pipidinny there is a horse/riding farm. Perhaps a clue?

My gut feeling is that the location was scouted before the Ciara murder. The actual murder required turning into the track a bit and then taking Ciara tens of metres slightly downhill through scrub in pitch darkness. Perhaps a torch was required but maybe starlight was enough? If it had been scouted this would not have been such a problem.

It seems feasible to think that the location would have been scouted. Where Pipidinny Rd starts at Wanneroo Rd, there's a couple of properties, what look like 5-acre blocks and those properties peter-out to bushland. Even if someone heard screaming they wouldn't be able to pinpoint exactly where.

I'd think it's been mentioned beforehand that the furthest part of Pipidinny Rd, wasn't sealed back then - like the furthest part was limestone.

I suppose anyone using that road would be for fishing or growing marujanah in the bush. I wonder if the horse/riding farm was there back then.

 

[zedx]

I visited the Pipidinny Rd murder site today - in lieu of any court hearing but mainly because I had business nearby.

It's an almost perfect site for a murder. Miles away from any households and on a usually low traffic road (at least at night, during the day it's a vehicle every minute or so)

My first impression is that the location wasn't random. The entrance track is almost invisible to passing traffic however it's well known as there is a lot of dumped rubbish. Further East on Pipidinny there is a horse/riding farm. Perhaps a clue?

My gut feeling is that the location was scouted before the Ciara murder. The actual murder required turning into the track a bit and then taking Ciara tens of metres slightly downhill through scrub in pitch darkness. Perhaps a torch was required but maybe starlight was enough? If it had been scouted this would not have been such a problem.

I've never believed the locations he chose were random, they may not have been locations he frequented, but he knew of them. Clue? Locations not randomly in the bush. Jane and Ciara both near acreage sufficient for horse properties. Did he go with first wife looking for horse agistments/lessons?

 

[imho]

if BRE is indeed actually responsible for the disappearance & murders of JR and CG, other than propensity there is, to my knowledge, nothing connecting him to SS.
but considering the now dated methods of evidence collection of that time, the several mentioned discrepancies of lab test results, and the investigation's very long and tacky history, there alone is enough so as to not eliminate judge hall's cause for reasonable doubt.
IMHO,
the charge relating to SS will be withdrawn
and BRE will NOT be convicted of the claremont serial killings, but will receive the full arm for the other crimes to which he finally plead guilt.
for having initially denied that guilt, there will be no remission, but with possible consideration given to what may be construed as him having had a clean slate since the offending owned.

my guess is he'll receive 13-15years all up,
and with time served, could be out in another 7-10

this is just an opinion.
one i am entitled to
...that is all.


imho

 

[Likeamystery]

if BRE is indeed actually responsible for the disappearance & murders of JR and CG, other than propensity there is, to my knowledge, nothing connecting him to SS.
but considering the now dated methods of evidence collection of that time, the several mentioned discrepancies of lab test results, and the investigation's very long and tacky history, there alone is enough so as to not eliminate judge hall's cause for reasonable doubt.
IMHO,
the charge relating to SS will be withdrawn
and BRE will NOT be convicted of the claremont serial killings, but will receive the full arm for the other crimes to which he finally plead guilt.
for having initially denied that guilt, there will be no remission, but with possible consideration given to what may be construed as him having had a clean slate since the offending owned.

my guess is he'll receive 13-15years all up,
and with time served, could be out in another 7-10

this is just an opinion.
one i am entitled to
...that is all.

imho

You're certainly entitled to share your opinion and thanks for the post which is informative.

As the accused has committed an offence beforehand (HH) and seemingly didn't learn from that episode, and has been accused of committing other crimes, I'd think he'd have to be sentenced at a higher category. I don't know the proper words, but meaning, for a first offence it's usually a short sentence, and once a person progresses in crimes they receive a medium sentence then if they still don't learn they're sentenced to a longer term. As I understand it, a judge must pass sentences according to certain rules.

He's been accused of two rapes at the cemetery and I think he'll get charged for the two - not permitted to serve them concurrently. As I understand, an act considered to be rape consists of six years imprisonment. But I don't have any legal expertise.

Can anyone shed some light on what sentence might be imposed for the two rape crimes?

 

[JezzaPerth]

You're certainly entitled to share your opinion and thanks for the post which is informative.

As the accused has committed an offence beforehand (HH) and seemingly didn't learn from that episode, and has been accused of committing other crimes, I'd think he'd have to be sentenced at a higher category. I don't know the proper words, but meaning, for a first offence it's usually a short sentence, and once a person progresses in crimes they receive a medium sentence then if they still don't learn they're sentenced to a longer term. As I understand it, a judge must pass sentences according to certain rules.

He's been accused of two rapes at the cemetery and I think he'll get charged for the two - not permitted to serve them concurrently. As I understand, an act considered to be rape consists of six years imprisonment. But I don't have any legal expertise.

Can anyone shed some light on what sentence might be imposed for the two rape crimes?

The rapes were in circumstances of aggravation which more or less doubles the sentence. I think It worked out at around 15-17 years. If it had happened during a burglary it would have been even more. The Huntingdale attack was during a burglary so will also get a hefty sentece.

 

[imho]

You're certainly entitled to share your opinion and thanks for the post which is informative.

As the accused has committed an offence beforehand (HH) and seemingly didn't learn from that episode, and has been accused of committing other crimes, I'd think he'd have to be sentenced at a higher category. I don't know the proper words, but meaning, for a first offence it's usually a short sentence, and once a person progresses in crimes they receive a medium sentence then if they still don't learn they're sentenced to a longer term. As I understand it, a judge must pass sentences according to certain rules.

He's been accused of two rapes at the cemetery and I think he'll get charged for the two - not permitted to serve them concurrently. As I understand, an act considered to be rape consists of six years imprisonment. But I don't have any legal expertise.

Can anyone shed some light on what sentence might be imposed for the two rape crimes?

as stated, just an opinion,
and of course i may be entirely wrong.
as far as the HH incident, it could be said that BRE is perhaps not the only who did not learn from the crime - i refer to tptb who, after such, should have had him well on their radar ... what is their charge?

there was a time i'd have believed, if found guilty of CSK, BRE would be locked up forever and a day, but having own experience as a victim in the court process, where i learnt that so-called justice is dished strictly on only that which is both pertinent, and 100% irrefutable, i discovered that regardless of whatever happened to the victim, it boils down to a BS legal process which, in my case, lessened both the severity as well as the number of charges on a plea deal, further consolidated the total count of those subsequent charges at sentencing where a possible total of 244years (calculated on years per offence) became a final outcome of 2yr good behaviour bond.
so aside from any consideration that might be given to BRE appearing to have kept a clean slate, and despite a singular rape charge possibly equating to 6years(?), at least be prepared for disappointment, because if ruled to have been no irrefutable evidence of post-offending since that era, i'm thinking it's possible he may be given further consideration on the KK charges by consolidation of the multiple rape charge, as his reward for having entered a guilty plea prior to the matter going through court.
imho

 

[Likeamystery]

as stated, just an opinion,
and of course i may be entirely wrong.
as far as the HH incident, it could be said that BRE is perhaps not the only who did not learn from the crime - i refer to tbtb who, after such, should have had him well on their radar ... what is their charge?

there was a time i'd have believed, if found guilty of CSK, BRE would be locked up forever and a day, but having own experience as a victim in the court process, where i learnt that so-called justice is dished strictly on only that which is both pertinent, and 100% irrefutable, i discovered that regardless of whatever happened to the victim, it boils down to a BS legal process which, in my case, lessened both the severity as well as the number of charges on a plea deal, further consolidated the total count of those subsequent charges at sentencing where a possible total of 244years (calculated on years per offence) became a final outcome of 2yr good behaviour bond.
so aside from any consideration that might be given to BRE appearing to have kept a clean slate, and despite a singular rape charge possibly equating to 6years(?), at least be prepared for disappointment, because if ruled to have been no irrefutable evidence of post-offending since that era, i'm thinking it's possible he may be given further consideration on the KK charges by consolidation of the multiple rape charge, as his reward for having entered a guilty plea prior to the matter going through court.
imho

As I'm a bit older I don't know what tbtb means, but interesting what you've written about a personal experience with the courts. It's enlightening to know what may happen. I hope you have been able to move on, somewhat and not let the perpetrator affect you forever. Life is short and we need to make the very most of it - please remember we're allowed to be happy.

Yes, you're right about the reward for having entered a guilty plea prior to the matter going through court. My thoughts are as judge Hall is well in the limelight, he'll make sure he does everything right by the book. Preventing any excuses for a retrial. Judge Hall holds a great deal of weight in the palm of his hands doesn't he.

 

[one eyed spy]

as stated, just an opinion,
and of course i may be entirely wrong.
as far as the HH incident, it could be said that BRE is perhaps not the only who did not learn from the crime - i refer to tbtb who, after such, should have had him well on their radar ... what is their charge?

there was a time i'd have believed, if found guilty of CSK, BRE would be locked up forever and a day, but having own experience as a victim in the court process, where i learnt that so-called justice is dished strictly on only that which is both pertinent, and 100% irrefutable, i discovered that regardless of whatever happened to the victim, it boils down to a BS legal process which, in my case, lessened both the severity as well as the number of charges on a plea deal, further consolidated the total count of those subsequent charges at sentencing where a possible total of 244years (calculated on years per offence) became a final outcome of 2yr good behaviour bond.
so aside from any consideration that might be given to BRE appearing to have kept a clean slate, and despite a singular rape charge possibly equating to 6years(?), at least be prepared for disappointment, because if ruled to have been no irrefutable evidence of post-offending since that era, i'm thinking it's possible he may be given further consideration on the KK charges by consolidation of the multiple rape charge, as his reward for having entered a guilty plea prior to the matter going through court.
imho

Agree. To refer to some of the sentences handed out & particularly for sexual offences, as "justice" is often an insult to all involved, except the perp who's laughing all the way home on the back of some BS supervision order or some other ridiculous punishment. Makes many victims wonder why anyone bothered to make them endure the trial process.

Sentencing remarks and judgements listed on the courts website are a good place to start for people wanting to understand the reality of the actual punishments being handed out. Even more shocking are those where an offenders prior conviction, sentence imposed and subsequent actual release date is also detailed, along with the next conviction, and the next, and the next. It makes you sick.
Sentences are much higher now than they once were but still nowhere near what they should be. The most surprising thing is the heftier sentences continually get appealed, against the sentence! Then mostly allowed and usually overturned only to have them eventually serve a fraction before they let them out again. I cant comprehend the majority of the courts decisions & its no surprise to find "Decision Suppressed" so commonplace as the only published outcome as I doubt anyone else would understand them either.

 

[BFew]

Why did remote Prosecutor Ms Barbagallo, lose internet connection with the Supreme Court shortly b4 3:20pm WST today,
partly causing the case to be adjourned until at least next Monday? (the other part being Carmel's ill health).

Sick prosecution delays Claremont trial until Monday

The trial of Bradley Robert Edwards has been adjourned to give sick lead prosecutor Carmel Barbagallo time to recover following a day also disrupted by IT complications. HOW IT PLAYED OUT IN COURT.

thewest.com.au

3:21 PM WST
Emily Moulton
Court has adjourned briefly after the connection to Ms Barbagallo cut out.
Justice Hall then asked prosecutor Tara Payne to contact Ms Barbagallo to let her know that they were trying to reconnect.
Ms Payne then told the court the computer Ms Barbagallo was using had crashed and she was trying to reboot it.
This prompted Justice Hall to reconsider carrying out the closings via videolink.
"This is not an overwhelming success," he told the court.
"One, the technology is not as I would hope it would be and is less optimal than when we were doing it for witnesses," he said. "Second, my concern, having seen Ms Barbagallo, is that she is significantly unwell, but is valiantly soldiering on as I would expect her to do given her professionalism.
"I would not want her to feel obliged to do so and give a less than desired performance in delivering submissions given how important this case is.
"If she is not significantly better by tomorrow I am minded to put it off until she is better."
Justice Hall then asked Ms Payne to contact Ms Barbagallo to suggest restarting the closings when she is much better.
Court then adjourned.

Edit: multiple edits as the end of the session today played out and we got more info from the live blogs

 

[BFew]

Assuming that Carmel's health did not rapidly deteriorate during the day from when she might have been independently medically assessed this morning, which might have actually been the case in this instance ....

IMO, WA Department of Justice possibly setting a very poor example today,
of allowing a worker within their Court to soldier on working remotely,
when it appears that the workers should be resting up 100%.

Is this normal practice in the Department?

Or is there actually no-one in the current Department processes, or work contractual arrangement they have with Prosecutor Carmel Barbagello,
that has authority, decision making powers, and a robust health assessment process,
to adequately assess and instruct someone working like an out of town Prosecutor, working on a Department Court case,
that they are not to work face to face or remotely, until they can prove a certain level of well-health has been achieved for at least 24 hours or more?

Particularly in the midst of a Global Pandemic affecting Australia/WA,
when working when unwell is an even bigger issue compared to normal times.

 

[imho]

As I'm a bit older I don't know what tbtb means, but interesting what you've written about a personal experience with the courts. It's enlightening to know what may happen. I hope you have been able to move on, somewhat and not let the perpetrator affect you forever. Life is short and we need to make the very most of it - please remember we're allowed to be happy.

Yes, you're right about the reward for having entered a guilty plea prior to the matter going through court. My thoughts are as judge Hall is well in the limelight, he'll make sure he does everything right by the book. Preventing any excuses for a retrial. Judge Hall holds a great deal of weight in the palm of his hands doesn't he.

sorry, typo.
i'm of the older variety too, and somewhat distracted.
i thought i had input t p t b .
are you any the wiser for my having corrected?


the authorities ; the police
...the powers that be


imho

 

[Deva]

Why did remote Prosecutor Ms Barbagallo, lose internet connection with the Supreme Court shortly b4 3:20pm WST today,
partly causing the case to be adjourned until at least next Monday? (the other part being Carmel's ill health).

Sick prosecution delays Claremont trial until Monday

The trial of Bradley Robert Edwards has been adjourned to give sick lead prosecutor Carmel Barbagallo time to recover following a day also disrupted by IT complications. HOW IT PLAYED OUT IN COURT.

thewest.com.au

Edit: multiple edits as the end of the session today played out and we got more info from the live blogs

The feed kept dropping out, either sound or visual for her and the courtroom. Very frustrating and not good enough in this day and age.

 

[JezzaPerth]

I'm not sure if this is a mistake in reporting by watoday, or worryingly a mistake by the prosecution.
There is no evidence that the person screaming in Mosman Park was Sarah Spiers.
I guess we'll have to wait for the audio record to find out.

 

[BFew]

The feed kept dropping out, either sound or visual for her and the courtroom. Very frustrating and not good enough in this day and age.

If it's anything like the NSW Courts situation reported in the media in March this year, I'm not surprised.

‘Lines dropped out, witnesses didn’t know where to go’: justice in times of coronavirus | Richard Ackland

Can the delivery of the law snap back to its old ways after the pandemic? There is already an anticipated wave of ‘corona appeals’

www.theguardian.com

In March, when everyone was quite new to courtroom remoteness, one barrister in Sydney circulated his experience after using the supreme court’s virtual facilities. His name has been redacted to protect his future career: The judge couldn’t see anyone; lines dropped out regularly; witnesses didn’t know where to go; ... subpoenaed material could not be accessed by anyone; feedback [from computers] made it impossible to proceed.”
The upshot was that a two day case would likely spin out to six days with the plaintiff charged fees for extra hearing allocations.

 

[zedx]

I'm not sure if this is a mistake in reporting by watoday, or worryingly a mistake by the prosecution.
There is no evidence that the person screaming in Mosman Park was Sarah Spiers.
I guess we'll have to wait for the audio record to find out.

View attachment 889230

I wondered the same thing. I dont recall any direct evidence to prove that the screams heard came from Sarah. Did I miss something?? or could this end up being a huge problem??

 

[Spinnaker]

I've never believed the locations he chose were random, they may not have been locations he frequented, but he knew of them. Clue? Locations not randomly in the bush. Jane and Ciara both near acreage sufficient for horse properties. Did he go with first wife looking for horse agistments/lessons?

The property where JR was found kept horses. I have been told this by a close friend who knew the family who owned the property at the time. Her words to me was 'kept horses' as opposed to 'had horses'. They also employed some staff who lived in outbuildings.

Note she also told me ages ago about the screams heard, which I posted on WS at the time. I ended up getting Time Out for this as they deleted my post and I kicked back at them for doing this as knew it to be factual.