Analysis Clarko in 2019 “We’re a middle of the road team”

[Nastyfish]

The penny has finally dropped for me. I’ve been a true believer. But this is the worst hawks team I can recall in 40 years. We topped up with mediocrity. And now our best players are mediocre, and the team is less than that.

A few green shoots are there, and so the rest of this season and the next are all about encouraging that growth. That might be a hard pill to swallow for Mitchell omeara and wingard, who have been sold on Clarko’s doomed rebound - hope they can sustain some passion.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

The penny has finally dropped for me. I’ve been a true believer. But this is the worst hawks team I can recall in 40 years. We topped up with mediocrity. And now our best players are mediocre, and the team is less than that.

A few green shoots are there, and so the rest of this season and the next are all about encouraging that growth. That might be a hard pill to swallow for Mitchell omeara and wingard, who have been sold on Clarko’s doomed rebound - hope they can sustain some passion.

He sold them a lemon.

 

[Hawk_francais]

It will be interesting to see what happens from here. Heard Jaeger after the match talking about how disheartening it was to lose by 50 points after being in a winning position. Developing side, lapses in concentration. If we can just fix up those lapses we'll win more games of footy, get more confidence and the success will flow from there. That seems to be the view of the club at the moment.

The other view is that having our backs to the wall for the past 12 months has been physically and mentally draining for the group, and that we need an injection of youth to take us forward. We've seen the raw energy and enthusiasm that Day and CJ brought to the side. My view is that we'll need another healthy dose or two of that before we see senior players get their belief back in the team's direction.

Edit: Next week is a good text case. We come up against an Adelaide side who will field 22 players with about half the experience of our team. Yet they are flying and should start favourites despite the fact we're playing at a ground that favours us. They and Sydney are the poster-boys for what youth can do. They might both fade mid-season, but the internal belief will be strong for the next few years based on what they've shown over the past month.

 

[LMGjr]

I've seen this said a few times but it's just not true. In 2019 we took one first round selection at 13 and one second round selection at 29. No other picks in the top 50. Then in 2020 we took one first round pick and 2 (very late) second round picks. That's barely above what we'd be expected to take, especially given the extra second pick we took last year was a Downie match.

We haven't pivoted to the draft at all. We've taken 2 top 25 picks over 2 years and just haven't traded out our early picks.

We should have pivoted to the draft. But we haven't.

Poor us hey? (this isn't aimed at you mate is just generalizing)

Clarko stuffed up, or was it Wright, or can we blame the water boy; the HFC as a whole tried for one more, it didn't work. Get on with it.

Whatever happens the man has given us 4 flags after pulling us out of the worst mire I've ever seen.

There is nothing more to say, it's all been done to death, reborn and killed agian. Wallow in it or get on with it - we are getting on with it now - and that's all that matters from this point forward.

Only thing left, it seems, is one-up-man-ship between supporters on who saw what first = boring.

 

[TylerDurden]

 

[Hodginator]

Pretty selective there by Kane. He clearly does it to stir the pot.

Missed Kosi. Plus fair enough they didn’t play, but add Day and Brockman to that list 2 weeks ago and it’s not as bad as Kane makes it out.

Then add an extra year to make it 22 and you have Worps, Scrim, Lewis, Morrison, probably a couple others I’ve missed off the top of my head.

 

[Zack]

I just did a quick count Melbourne had 7 at 21 and under yesterday to our 3 (Cornes missed Kosi), given that, the result now seems more horrid.

 

[Bardo State]

You dont think the last two drafts are different from the few before hand? In any case, last year was not the best year to throw the sink at the draft given so many players had not played at all and there were so many academy players. But we did make moves to add depth plus add an extra second round pick which gives us three inside the top 30 on current ladder positions. Whether we trade out players and picks for another first round pick this year will be interesting.

Yes, the last 2 drafts were highly compromised, especially the 2020 draft. Not the ideal drafts to be buying in to (although other have managed). My point is that we've gone from a strategy where we take far fewer first and second round picks to the draft than other clubs, to a strategy where we take about the average amount in the last 2 years. I hope we switch again and really give ourselves the best chance of getting game changing talent onto the list through the draft. Because doing it by FA or trading is a lot less viable now.

 

[burner1]

Unfortunately Kane is right again. We are not playing a young side vs what others are putting out. The stats don’t lie. While Clarko may blame results on a young side the facts don’t support this.

The midfield in particular is very experienced and no kids in there at all (Morrison and worpel both have played 50+ games) yet is our worst performed part of ground.

 

[Pessimistic]

Sydney hav runs on the board but the others? They have no body of work to speak of. according to corney they have discovered the route to success and Hawthorn have forgotten it?

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

it's pretty cherry picked too considering a bunch of our younger players are 22

what we should be looking at is list profile relative to OUR team this time last year

doing that makes it clear we are edging toward youth - it's the pace of which that is the cause of the contention

 

[Hawk Dork]

It's really astounding to think how much Clarko overestimated the list, compared to where we actually are right now.

Probably thought we were going to land a few key pieces via FA to fix it
That all went to crap

 

[Pessimistic]

Just on the "Play the kids the others have had their chances how will these kids go if their immediate future looks like this?

Player---------Yearly games from being recuited
O'Brien--------0-4-0-14-16-12-16-16
Howe----------4-11-18-17-12-5-5
Morrison-------1-21-9-11-5
Hanrahan------0-0-9-7-3
Nash-----------0-5-14-2-1
Cousins--------3-4-12-6-1
CJ--------------0-2-5-5

This type of player is the Campbell ,Ladson, Osborne, Bateman group of 2008

Of course theres a miryad of reasons why some things have happened: not many senior opportunities prior to 2016: injuries

The broad consnsus seems to be a philosphical choice, the really old players who need to be replaced: The inexperienced players we think 'have had a go and need to be overlooked (CJ commonly in this category last year) : the shiny new players wh will make it base on being taken early in the draft

Against all this, we have been without Gunstonn Siciyl and Will Day

12

Will Day

Age

22

Ht

191cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.5

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

7.5

5star

M

5.0

5star

T

1.0

3star

CL

0.5

2star

D

17.5

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

7.5

4star

M

5.0

5star

T

1.0

2star

CL

0.5

3star

D

17.5

5star

K

10.0

4star

HB

7.5

5star

M

5.0

5star

T

1.0

3star

CL

0.5

3star

- who looked like he had taken on a playmaker role in his early 2021 games.
Its an opportunity not an end of the world as we know it

We got pantsed in senior and reserves games by Melbourne but they have been building this list for quite a while, It didnt get recruited in a couple of seasons of 'playing the kids'

 

[Pessimistic]

Yes, the last 2 drafts were highly compromised, especially the 2020 draft. Not the ideal drafts to be buying in to (although other have managed). My point is that we've gone from a strategy where we take far fewer first and second round picks to the draft than other clubs, to a strategy where we take about the average amount in the last 2 years. I hope we switch again and really give ourselves the best chance of getting game changing talent onto the list through the draft. Because doing it by FA or trading is a lot less viable now.

In contrast the 'hard rebuild' is not quite so good since priority picks were removed

 

[Pessimistic]

I just did a quick count Melbourne had 7 at 21 and under yesterday to our 3 (Cornes missed Kosi), given that, the result now seems more horrid.

And the VFL teams were heavily the other way round. Weideman (I own BHCO) and Ben Brown there

 

[Timo pez]

Poor us hey? (this isn't aimed at you mate is just generalizing)

Clarko stuffed up, or was it Wright, or can we blame the water boy; the HFC as a whole tried for one more, it didn't work. Get on with it.

Whatever happens the man has given us 4 flags after pulling us out of the worst mire I've ever seen.

There is nothing more to say, it's all been done to death, reborn and killed agian. Wallow in it or get on with it - we are getting on with it now - and that's all that matters from this point forward.

Only thing left, it seems, is one-up-man-ship between supporters on who saw what first = boring.

Did Clarko pull us out of the mire, or was it Hodge, Mitchell, Franklin, Lewis, Rioli, Roughead etc? If you add that core to any coach they'll have great success

 

[Pessimistic]

You dont think the last two drafts are different from the few before hand? In any case, last year was not the best year to throw the sink at the draft given so many players had not played at all and there were so many academy players. But we did make moves to add depth plus add an extra second round pick which gives us three inside the top 30 on current ladder positions. Whether we trade out players and picks for another first round pick this year will be interesting.

Im not sure you can whack the club form not anticipating a covid season

Part of our 'problem' is we were top 4 in 6 seasons and never got near the elite end of the draft as its been described. 17 players were 3 time premiers. 3 are still at the club and 3 are playing elsewhere.
All the current top teams filled up at that time.

Lets hope melbourne do go close to a flag because the "hard rebuild' advocates will have a team to hang their hat on (besides Hawthorn of course)

 

[Timo pez]

Obrien and Kozi did enuf to stay with their efforts and Lewis back next week, so need to make a call and drop Hartigan who's not an AFL level key defender. As much as Timmy probably wont like it, send him back as a way he can stay in the senior team and contribute. Or try Nash, who thrives on the physical and cant really contribute heavily in other areas. This should come in until Granger Barras can move into that role.

Also need to give Liam a rest and replace him with a younger version of himself, James Cousins

24

James Cousins

Age

26

Ht

185cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.3

4star

K

9.2

4star

HB

7.1

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

3.0

5star

CL

1.7

4star

No current season stats available

D

14.0

4star

K

7.4

3star

HB

6.6

4star

M

2.6

3star

T

3.4

5star

CL

0.6

3star

. Cousins deserves an opportunity and basically gives you the same thing. We already have an experienced midfield so it seems like a no-brainer to add a younger guy to the core of Mitch, Jaegar and Chad. Holding the ball up with 16 seconds to play on half time and then failing to get the distance was a stinker for an experienced player.

Even drop Worpel and let him rediscover some confidence being the man in the 2's. Same thing worked 10 games into his career when he hit a wall and came back reinvigorated.

 

[Pessimistic]

Did Clarko pull us out of the mire, or was it Hodge, Mitchell, Franklin, Lewis, Rioli, Roughead etc? If you add that core to any coach they'll have great success

I've hear that said abut Lethal at Brisbane, but that super team was an actual wooden spooner before Lethal arrived.

Alistair Clarkson is a great coach, and has also been central to a transformation at all levels of the club to a power of the AFL.

The only criticism could be that the back office staff have been so respected other clubs have recruited them to their clubs in huge numbers

Now I've said my piece, what was your point again?

 

[Lickmesocks]

Did Clarko pull us out of the mire, or was it Hodge, Mitchell, Franklin, Lewis, Rioli, Roughead etc? If you add that core to any coach they'll have great success

Clarko came in and swept out the high priced under performing players.... Rawlings, Holland, Hay, Harford, Thommo, Graham, Everitt. Lots of bridges and egos burnt in the process.

Yes he has the town halls needed to do it again.

Does he really have the desire and energy to go through all the pain again with what the tough decisions bring.

I feel as tho our once strength being ruthless with list decisions has now become a weakness.

Keeping senior players on for a year or two too long as a sort of farewell/ thank you tour is a lovely sentiment but has never been Hawthorn.

I am not just referring to Burgoyne either. Others that finished up last year were cooked 12 months earlier and we didn’t make the hard calls on some club favourites for whatever reason and just delayed the inevitable .

 

[Timo pez]

Unfortunately Kane is right again. We are not playing a young side vs what others are putting out. The stats don’t lie. While Clarko may blame results on a young side the facts don’t support this.

The midfield in particular is very experienced and no kids in there at all (Morrison and worpel both have played 50+ games) yet is our worst performed part of ground.

blaming poor performances on "the kids" is a cop out. Quite often it's the senior players not doing enough but the club knows the it deflects questioning about where the group is at. If "Senior players need to stand up" is mentioned it will create a sh*t storm. The solution to all this now that we are 1-4 is to 'manage' or relieve a few senior guys of their roles and genuinely go younger.

 

[Zack]

And the VFL teams were heavily the other way round. Weideman (I own BHCO) and Ben Brown there

We had Brooksby, Ceglar and Hartley... all older.

 

[Timo pez]

Clarko came in and swept out the high priced under performing players.... Rawlings, Holland, Hay, Harford, Thommo, Graham, Everitt. Lots of bridges and egos burnt in the process.

Yes he has the town halls needed to do it again.

Does he really have the desire and energy to go through all the pain again with what the tough decisions bring.

I feel as tho our once strength being ruthless with list decisions has now become a weakness.

Keeping senior players on for a year or two too long as a sort of farewell/ thank you tour is a lovely sentiment but has never been Hawthorn.

I am not just referring to Burgoyne either. Others that finished up last year were cooked 12 months earlier and we didn’t make the hard calls on some club favourites for whatever reason and just delayed the inevitable .

The Josh Gibson "farewell tour" is one such example!

 

[Pessimistic]

Pretty selective there by Kane. He clearly does it to stir the pot.

Missed Kosi. Plus fair enough they didn’t play, but add Day and Brockman to that list 2 weeks ago and it’s not as bad as Kane makes it out.

Then add an extra year to make it 22 and you have Worps, Scrim, Lewis, Morrison, probably a couple others I’ve missed off the top of my head.

The key is to have a strategy and not be diverted by outside noise such as Kornes. Who is also critisizing adelaide for doing exactly what hes proposing

How would this Richmond dynasty be if the proposed coup had come off and the new Board had gone for a populist 'hard rebuild'

 

[Brishawk]

Unfortunately Kane is right again. We are not playing a young side vs what others are putting out. The stats don’t lie. While Clarko may blame results on a young side the facts don’t support this.

The midfield in particular is very experienced and no kids in there at all (Morrison and worpel both have played 50+ games) yet is our worst performed part of ground.

Players playing regularly who are under 22 are normally players taken towards the top of the draft (always exceptions). Our best two are injured. Then we have Downie and Finn both developing in vfl. We have brockman rested this week. We have a Mitchell injured. We have jeka playing well. So there are some good young prospects on the list but our side isn’t able to carry them while they develop.

we have cj, Moore, Morrison, scrimshaw, Nash and hanrahan who haven’t played many games and are 22 or less in the side. Worpel too. The age cutoff is a bit arbitrary as All are still developing. Would expect that group to be a lot better in another 10-20 games. Maybe not Nash

and in another 10 games it gets easier to bring in Downie and Finn to play along side them. Maybe sooner if those two keep ticking boxes in the vfl. We can’t be distracted by what others are doing as this is our list and the players are at different stages. And as a team we are at a different stage. Just got to take the long view for now. Bide our time and ride the bumps with a grin a little longer.