Analysis Clarko in 2019 “We’re a middle of the road team”

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HODGEYROAD

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Because I see some difference, its simple, and Richmond may very well eclipse our standard, we did it from 2008, struggled through 2009 and 2010 came a whisker of taking out COLLINGWOOD in the Prelim 2011, runners up the next year, then 2013 had a contestant in Freo that came back strong in the second half, we won, then we whacked Sydney 2014 as good a whack, as anything Benjamin Siegel could do. Then in 2015 had some up and down finals then crushed them for the second time in a GF those Eagles, Richmonds GF in defeating the miserable Giants in 2019, before that they'd won against the Crows had a year off 2018, then beat Geelong in a short GF, now I am not knocking them by any means, I am simply comparing the journey and the competition. I think 14 and 15 we ground two top line outfits into the ground, no doubt about that, in 2016 one kick from that last few seconds and we would have had the FOURPEAT IN OUR SIGHTS , ANYTHIN G COULD HAVE HAPPENED.

So my point and opinion is we played in 5 GF's we nearly played in 6 in 2011 one game shy and real close, that has been 10 years , I think we were dangerous and almost at given time unbeatable after we came back around in 2011.

I don't think the Tigers have hiot that level, the game is different even the ongoing rule changes mash things uop now days, we wee the last of the champion teams. Plus we had the best coach running around us all that time.
Ultimatley I'll say this, I also think our teams were stronger than the Richmond teams.

But if Richmond win this year they would have won 4 in 5 and most people will consider them the best, simply because statistically no one will have matched that in a very long time.
 

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HODGEYROAD

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We've used our first round pick as everyone wanted in the last two drafts. We also haven't traded our future first either. If Clarko has some unilateral control over our drafting strategy then it's clear that it's currently to hit the draft.

So are people suggesting he should go now because he happened to be wrong years ago when our list was still theoretically capable of further success and it was a reasonable move in that context?
Personally I think we needed to do more to get another 1st rounder last year, we didn't manage it, I really hope this year we manage to shop someone that's over 26 for another 1st.
 

kirbatron

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Ok ta mate so jags, tom and chad what are you suggesting we trade them? What objectivity are you looking for in this instance their performance their position in the side? I am still confused about your statement. I can only conclude you mean to trade one or all of them for draft picks and that you want to trade assets for draft picks is that what you are saying?
does their age (and to an extent the previous strategy) influence clarkos decision making, outlook & timeframe for our rebuild?

we know clarko can coach but i pose the question above with the hawthorn list in 3-5 years time in mind.
 

Nastyfish

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does their age (and to an extent the previous strategy) influence clarkos decision making, outlook & timeframe for our rebuild?

we know clarko can coach but i pose the question above with the hawthorn list in 3-5 years time in mind.
If any of them badly wants to go, we facilitate a trade on good terms to us. Otherwise it’s handy to have some quality around to avoid a NM debacle where all that is being taught is how to get flogged week after week. Seems like shiels is winding up and it’s not like we are stacked in the middle, anything but!
 

Bardo State

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If any of them badly wants to go, we facilitate a trade on good terms to us. Otherwise it’s handy to have some quality around to avoid a NM debacle where all that is being taught is how to get flogged week after week. Seems like shiels is winding up and it’s not like we are stacked in the middle, anything but!
I think this is the only way to do it. You can't push your best players out in a fire sale and expect success. You can only have a mature conversation with the senior players at the club, let them know that they will be expected to lead and help build the next generation of players with little guarantees of personal success. If they buy into that, you keep them around and build the list with what you have. If that doesn't suit them and they want to move for personal reasons, the club should facilitate that for a decent return.

Look at all the well built teams and there's no short cut. You just have to nail it through trades, draft and FA over a number of years with what you have. There's always an experienced core to match the developing stars and role players, it's never just kids.

By the start of next year, we will hopefully be able to introduce the high end of 3 consecutive drafts into the team (19-21) which is a decent start but plenty to do from there.
 

Steven Tyler

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Personally I think we needed to do more to get another 1st rounder last year, we didn't manage it, I really hope this year we manage to shop someone that's over 26 for another 1st.
I’m certainly glad we kept this years first rounder
Gunston was never going to Collingwood with their salary cap issues
Not sure what else could have happened
 

Judd2Sewell

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Moving forward over the next two years we need to fill out these positions:

Hardwick - FB - Frost
Sicily - CHB - Impey

Ruck - JOM - Worpel
Phillips - Mitchell - Day

Gunston - CHF - Wingard
FP - FF - FP

Scrimshaw - INT - INT - INT

We essentially need to fill out these positions with the below players and new draftees / FA's:

Defenders:
Greaves
CJ
DGB

Midfield:
Reeves
Downie
Maginess
Mitchell
Bramble

Forwards:
Morris
Brockman
Moore
Jeka
Lewis
Kosi

For mine question marks remain over Breust, who hasn't been up to much this season.

Trade/cut/delist/don't renew/retire:
Burgoyne
Shiels
Howe
Nash
TOB
Hanrahan
 

JoondalupJ

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Not particularly aimed at you BuddyHawk as there's thousands of people with the same stupid idea, but we kicked 12.11 that night - why is it Smith's miss that cost us the game? I'll hazard the guess that there were other, easier goals missed, under far less pressure.

It just screams "I'm frustrated & want someone to blame..."

If you want a 'sliding doors' moment, look to the decision early in the year, where it was decided that footsore was to be gifted a premiership & would be allowed to throw the ball unabated, for an entire year. 101 tackles for 3 free kicks in that final against them - there's your lost premiership.
You can always talk about the past activities during 4 quarters of football, but there is one thing you can never dispute and that is the actual activity- incident, while trying to succeed, with one kick, in one point in time!

If Isaac had kicked a goal?? We would have played Sydney the next week and I think we would have a new mindset , not from coaches or anyone , but personal mindset of those who would get the chance again for the fourpeat.

Anything could have happened. And we were in a pretty extraordinary situation at Hawthorn. I think we had troubled Sydney over the year and I just had a gut feeling we would have turned them upside down the next week. But thats just a feeling , not reality.
To me though it was an excellent shot at the big prize again, if we won, everything changes, for those finals!
No guarantee but definitely everything changes! Because we move forward another goal in sight, the brain begins to see an opening for a once in a generation chance again!

So when making a point about our 2013-2014-2015 flags and looking at that Geelong near miss, it is not about Smith losing the game, he didn't!!! Its all about, what if? Its all it can be, but definitely players would have looked and said we got another go lets give it everything, and I thought we would have wiped Sydney.

I happen to think that we could have taken Sydney out, and done the deed or got close because our will to win a fourth was there, the chance was there and we bloody near played off. But we didn't , its a thought its an opinion when the ball went through the points that was story over, we had just won 3 flags in a row, imagine the thoughts going through that Hawthorn side which was so switched onto victory if things went onwards you know another game another try. Thats all I am saying.

What happenend during the game time, before that last shot, means nothing, its what happened at shot time, is all that mattered and the shot that meant everything. It didn't happen, it's history.
I just think sometimes when looking back our determination may have just shone through if we could have gone that next step. we could have just done it, with a win against cats that day and we damned near did we could have been playing Sydney in the next fortnight. Also we would have been really hot!
So really it is in the mind.
When I think back, I just say that our character and our previous 4 or 5 years with tons of confidence and never say die attitude,made the loss by a pinch, against Geelong unfortunate, I think we could have gone on and maybe we could have set another record. ???????????????????????????
We didn't but ever since I've thought one kick no ones fault we were in attack, but sometimes it doesn't happen.

So I'm saying a win that day Changes Everything? But maybe not.
 

Brant

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You can always talk about the past activities during 4 quarters of football, but there is one thing you can never dispute and that is the actual activity- incident, while trying to succeed, with one kick, in one point in time!

If Isaac had kicked a goal?? We would have played Sydney the next week and I think we would have a new mindset , not from coaches or anyone , but personal mindset of those who would get the chance again for the fourpeat.

Anything could have happened. And we were in a pretty extraordinary situation at Hawthorn. I think we had troubled Sydney over the year and I just had a gut feeling we would have turned them upside down the next week. But thats just a feeling , not reality.
To me though it was an excellent shot at the big prize again, if we won, everything changes, for those finals!
No guarantee but definitely everything changes! Because we move forward another goal in sight, the brain begins to see an opening for a once in a generation chance again!

So when making a point about our 2013-2014-2015 flags and looking at that Geelong near miss, it is not about Smith losing the game, he didn't!!! Its all about, what if? Its all it can be, but definitely players would have looked and said we got another go lets give it everything, and I thought we would have wiped Sydney.

I happen to think that we could have taken Sydney out, and done the deed or got close because our will to win a fourth was there, the chance was there and we bloody near played off. But we didn't , its a thought its an opinion when the ball went through the points that was story over, we had just won 3 flags in a row, imagine the thoughts going through that Hawthorn side which was so switched onto victory if things went onwards you know another game another try. Thats all I am saying.

What happenend during the game time, before that last shot, means nothing, its what happened at shot time, is all that mattered and the shot that meant everything. It didn't happen, it's history.
I just think sometimes when looking back our determination may have just shone through if we could have gone that next step. we could have just done it, with a win against cats that day and we damned near did we could have been playing Sydney in the next fortnight. Also we would have been really hot!
So really it is in the mind.
When I think back, I just say that our character and our previous 4 or 5 years with tons of confidence and never say die attitude,made the loss by a pinch, against Geelong unfortunate, I think we could have gone on and maybe we could have set another record. ???????????????????????????
We didn't but ever since I've thought one kick no ones fault we were in attack, but sometimes it doesn't happen.

So I'm saying a win that day Changes Everything? But maybe not.
Thanks for clearing that up, J.
 

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JoondalupJ

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You can always talk about the past activities during 4 quarters of football, but there is one thing you can never dispute and that is the actual activity- incident, while trying to succeed, with one kick, in one point in time!

If Isaac had kicked a goal?? We would have played Sydney the next week and I think we would have a new mindset , not from coaches or anyone , but personal mindset of those who would get the chance again for the fourpeat.

Anything could have happened. And we were in a pretty extraordinary situation at Hawthorn. I think we had troubled Sydney over the year and I just had a gut feeling we would have turned them upside down the next week. But thats just a feeling , not reality.
To me though it was an excellent shot at the big prize again, if we won, everything changes, for those finals!
No guarantee but definitely everything changes! Because we move forward another goal in sight, the brain begins to see an opening for a once in a generation chance again!

So when making a point about our 2013-2014-2015 flags and looking at that Geelong near miss, it is not about Smith losing the game, he didn't!!! Its all about, what if? Its all it can be, but definitely players would have looked and said we got another go lets give it everything, and I thought we would have wiped Sydney.

I happen to think that we could have taken Sydney out, and done the deed or got close because our will to win a fourth was there, the chance was there and we bloody near played off. But we didn't , its a thought its an opinion when the ball went through the points that was story over, we had just won 3 flags in a row, imagine the thoughts going through that Hawthorn side which was so switched onto victory if things went onwards you know another game another try. Thats all I am saying.

What happenend during the game time, before that last shot, means nothing, its what happened at shot time, is all that mattered and the shot that meant everything. It didn't happen, it's history.
I just think sometimes when looking back our determination may have just shone through if we could have gone that next step. we could have just done it, with a win against cats that day and we damned near did we could have been playing Sydney in the next fortnight. Also we would have been really hot!
So really it is in the mind.
When I think back, I just say that our character and our previous 4 or 5 years with tons of confidence and never say die attitude,made the loss by a pinch, against Geelong unfortunate, I think we could have gone on and maybe we could have set another record. ???????????????????????????
We didn't but ever since I've thought one kick no ones fault we were in attack, but sometimes it doesn't happen.

So I'm saying a win that day Changes Everything? But maybe not.
Just to clarify my next week comment I meant we , not Geelong, would have had Sydney 2 weeks later.
 

JoondalupJ

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Ultimatley I'll say this, I also think our teams were stronger than the Richmond teams.

But if Richmond win this year they would have won 4 in 5 and most people will consider them the best, simply because statistically no one will have matched that in a very long time.
Yep, we won 3 in 4 , so statistically if the tigers getup again, they have better figures,
 

Jazzfan

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Personally I think we needed to do more to get another 1st rounder last year, we didn't manage it, I really hope this year we manage to shop someone that's over 26 for another 1st.
We desperately need to get as much high end talent in as possible. I'd be curious if Pies actually did offer anything for Gunston last year. I don't think we have anyone over 26 attracting a top 10 pick on our list outside of Sicily, and no-one is leaving via free agency.

Sadly, the bombers got kissed on the dck by blokes wanting to leave. Saad had value and netted a top 10 pick. Daniher was a free agent and netted a top 10 pick (that no club would have handed straight up themselves at the time)....

And if Merrett leaves, they will get another potentially top 5 pick to match the one they already have.... All in all, it's the best thing that could have happened to them, and it wasn't by design.
 

Judd2Sewell

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I had the post deleted in the other thread, though I suppose it is more relevant here.

Why couldn't we trade out players like Breust, Gunston and Shiels and offer to pay a portion of their salaries?

We have enough money to burn and the chances are that a high profile FA join us are slim-to-none.

So why not use that as leverage to trade guys like Breust and Shiels for first rounders to some contending team? We wouldn't get a first rounder in a straight trade for them, bar maybe be Gunston, so this would likely make those potential teams much more likely to be interested. This is similar to what NFL and NBA teams do.

I never wanted to trade out Breust and Gunston previously. But I think the situation is pretty dire at the moment and we simply need young talent walking through the door.
 

Brishawk

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I had the post deleted in the other thread, though I suppose it is more relevant here.

Why couldn't we trade out players like Breust, Gunston and Shiels and offer to pay a portion of their salaries?

We have enough money to burn and the chances are that a high profile FA join us are slim-to-none.

So why not use that as leverage to trade guys like Breust and Shiels for first rounders to some contending team? We wouldn't get a first rounder in a straight trade for them, bar maybe be Gunston, so this would likely make those potential teams much more likely to be interested. This is similar to what NFL and NBA teams do.

I never wanted to trade out Breust and Gunston previously. But I think the situation is pretty dire at the moment and we simply need young talent walking through the door.
We probably missed our window for that. We really needed to trade guys out while we still had enough senior players to lead the new players. But we took a different path and are probably committed to it. Maybe we could do one but I doubt any want to leave. But it is a good way to use our cap if we can manage it.
 

Rushed_Behind

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I had the post deleted in the other thread, though I suppose it is more relevant here.

Why couldn't we trade out players like Breust, Gunston and Shiels and offer to pay a portion of their salaries?

We have enough money to burn and the chances are that a high profile FA join us are slim-to-none.

So why not use that as leverage to trade guys like Breust and Shiels for first rounders to some contending team? We wouldn't get a first rounder in a straight trade for them, bar maybe be Gunston, so this would likely make those potential teams much more likely to be interested. This is similar to what NFL and NBA teams do.

I never wanted to trade out Breust and Gunston previously. But I think the situation is pretty dire at the moment and we simply need young talent walking through the door.
Maybe they didn’t want to leave.
 

Steven Tyler

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I had the post deleted in the other thread, though I suppose it is more relevant here.

Why couldn't we trade out players like Breust, Gunston and Shiels and offer to pay a portion of their salaries?

We have enough money to burn and the chances are that a high profile FA join us are slim-to-none.

So why not use that as leverage to trade guys like Breust and Shiels for first rounders to some contending team? We wouldn't get a first rounder in a straight trade for them, bar maybe be Gunston, so this would likely make those potential teams much more likely to be interested. This is similar to what NFL and NBA teams do.

I never wanted to trade out Breust and Gunston previously. But I think the situation is pretty dire at the moment and we simply need young talent walking through the door.
It’s been mentioned may times by #Luckyhawk that Breust doesn’t want a trade
 

KingCantona

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I would hate to force players out that still want to be here, i think the potential negative impact on our culture outweighs the potential positives of a stronger draft hand. If good offers come our way we of course have to entertain them and speak to the player as necessary, but as long as they still buy in to the direction the club takes I would prefer to keep them.

At any rate I think we have one of the better draft hands in the comp for 2021 so we don't urgently need to shed our better players for picks
 
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