Analysis Clarko in 2019 “We’re a middle of the road team”

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Judd2Sewell

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Half of those players were not exactly flying in 2004-2005 though, were they?

I mean, Sewell was tradebait, Ladson was lucky to be kept around, Young was a spindly rookie, and Osborne was copping the same critiquing that Ollie currently gets for not doing enough or being at all reliable.
That's why it doesn't work when we compare where we are now to where we were back then.

We know how those players developed and we know the end result of what that core was able to achieve.

We have no idea how Finn, DGB, Downie, Brockman, Greaves, Morris, Jeka, Kosi, etc etc will turn out five years from now.
 
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Strapping Young Lad

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That's why it doesn't work when we compare where we are now to where we were back then.

We know how those players developed and we know the end result of what that core was able to achieve.

We have no idea whether Finn, DGB, Downie, Brockman, Greaves, Morris, Jeka, Kosi, etc etc will turn out five years from now.
Correct, but we also have a better group of players 27 and under.
 

Pessimistic

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That's why it doesn't work when we compare where we are now to where we were back then.

We know how those players developed and we know the end result of what that core was able to achieve.

We have no idea whether Finn, DGB, Downie, Brockman, Greaves, Morris, Jeka, Kosi, etc etc will turn out five years from now.
and they may not be a threepeat team, but may very well get close to saluting once. Comparing back to then is not that relevant either. The eighties squad was better, but didn’t achieve some things the 2008-15 mob did
 

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Rioli magic

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I think if Day and DGB were running around each week there would be more positivity about the direction. Instead we are playing speculative kids at the moment and seeing who has something to work with and who doesn’t.

Another point of frustration is that there does not seem to be a distinguishable game plan at the moment, we have no identity to hang your hat on. I could be completely wrong here but perhaps this is related to point one. Do you develop a game plan that suits the players you have, or do you develop a game plan and mould the players to fit into it.... probably somewhere in the middle but I think you need to know what you are working with, which at this stage I don’t think we do outside a handful of players.

Irrespective of above, what we do need to see is effort and commitment, regardless of the circumstances. To be fair I think we have shown this throughout the year, which is a big tick to the coaches (and players). We just don’t have the talent or list balance to win most weeks, but if effort and determination remains a non-negotiable while the list is turned over the wheel will turn, just need some patience.
 

offtherails9

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I think if Day and DGB were running around each week there would be more positivity about the direction. Instead we are playing speculative kids at the moment and seeing who has something to work with and who doesn’t.

Another point of frustration is that there does not seem to be a distinguishable game plan at the moment, we have no identity to hang your hat on. I could be completely wrong here but perhaps this is related to point one. Do you develop a game plan that suits the players you have, or do you develop a game plan and mould the players to fit into it.... probably somewhere in the middle but I think you need to know what you are working with, which at this stage I don’t think we do outside a handful of players.

Irrespective of above, what we do need to see is effort and commitment, regardless of the circumstances. To be fair I think we have shown this throughout the year, which is a big tick to the coaches (and players). We just don’t have the talent or list balance to win most weeks, but if effort and determination remains a non-negotiable while the list is turned over the wheel will turn, just need some patience.
Good post. I'm waiting for round 15, 16 or so, when Day is back, DGB is playing well at Box Hill and pushing for selection/maybe playing seniors. Not sure if Sicily will play? But anyway Clarko will loosen the shackles just like 2019, the game plan will open up, we'll claim a few scalps, and move up in the draft order. Can picture it already.
 

SammyC

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This Mitchell succession plan talk, whenever it might happen, annoys me.

Best man for the job. At the moment that is clarko, until it isn’t or he doesn’t want the job. I fail to see how an unproven VFL coach gets to walk into the job.

Whenever the time comes for clarko to leave, it needs to be a fully competitive process. Not handed to a favourite son.

Dunstall aside, mitch is the best hawk I’ve seen (too young for lethal). But that doesn’t mean he gets the gig without proving he is the best man for the job.
 

Pessimistic

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Am not sure Lewis or Rough were generational. Neither was close to elite.

That aside we don't have the young bench strength of talent on which to build for our next tilt.

Hopefully we go to the draft again for the next few years, get some good NGA/FSs and find some kids that turn into real A graders.
rough would be one of the great hawks as an all rounder
 

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Jazzfan

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The players we could have drafted are not better than TOM and JOM so it’s not like they would have us in the top 4 now.
It's hard to say as we don't know who we would have specifically drafted. But looking at the O'Meara deal, pick 7 in 2017 was Hunter-Clarke, Naughton was 9.... pick 26, O'Meara deal, ended up liam Ryan. Bailey Fritsch was taken 31. Sam Taylor 28.

In 2016, part of the O'meara trade, at pick 23 Shai Bolton was available (he went 29). At 36, O'Meara trade, Tom Stewart went near there (40).

Its hard to imagine, but this was all for O'Meara.
 
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Hawk_francais

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I think if Day and DGB were running around each week there would be more positivity about the direction. Instead we are playing speculative kids at the moment and seeing who has something to work with and who doesn’t.

Another point of frustration is that there does not seem to be a distinguishable game plan at the moment, we have no identity to hang your hat on. I could be completely wrong here but perhaps this is related to point one. Do you develop a game plan that suits the players you have, or do you develop a game plan and mould the players to fit into it.... probably somewhere in the middle but I think you need to know what you are working with, which at this stage I don’t think we do outside a handful of players.

Irrespective of above, what we do need to see is effort and commitment, regardless of the circumstances. To be fair I think we have shown this throughout the year, which is a big tick to the coaches (and players). We just don’t have the talent or list balance to win most weeks, but if effort and determination remains a non-negotiable while the list is turned over the wheel will turn, just need some patience.
If Jaeger comes back in on fire like he was, we’ll get an instant lift.
The players we could have drafted are not better than TOM and JOM so it’s not like they would have us in the top 4 now.
We got TOm, Wingard Jom in order to be playing finals now. We get the consolation of having some good players during a rebuild, but in hindsight you’d take the draft picks back, along with Burton.

No point trying to defend a plan that failed, no point in complaining about it either. It was a risk that didn’t come off.

This thread is just about the fact we’ve been very slow to react since the cracks appeared in 2019. Even this year at times our team selection has shown we’re still clinging to that short-term reward, but it’s rebuild o’clock, and the short term is not about rewards.
 

PhatHQ

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This thread is just about the fact we’ve been very slow to react since the cracks appeared in 2019.
This is the kicker. Nothing to do with what was done previously in topping up as it looked ok and personally I didn’t mind the plan and the players and the price at the time. Not applying a dramatic attack on the draft 2 years ago was a massive failure. Especially when you look at the quality of the top 25 kids in those drafts along with the deals between clubs for good players, not elite, good players. There was an opportunity to go hard or go home; the rest is history and we will suffer for it.
As for the playing group in response to a re-build phase, they all should be asked if they are in or out now. Play the players accordingly and bank the trade pieces for the end of the season trade period and find them a home now.
 

Milkshaker

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It's hard to say as we don't know who we would have specifically drafted. But looking at the O'Meara deal, pick 7 in 2017 was Hunter-Clarke, Naughton was 9.... pick 26, O'Meara deal, ended up liam Ryan. Bailey Fritsch was taken 31. Sam Taylor 28.

In 2016, part of the O'meara trade, at pick 23 Shai Bolton was available (he went 29). At 36, O'Meara trade, Tom Stewart went near there (40).

Its hard to imagine, but this was all for O'Meara.
Its speculative of course but Hunter, Naughton, Ryan, Fritsch, Bolton and Stewart is nigh on a complete rebuild.
 

Jazzfan

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We would only have had 3 of them

We also got a pick back right?
It's a complicated deal, given we needed to bring in the Saints and Carlton.

But effectively, we parted with:

Pick 7 in 2017.
Pick 26 in 2017.
Pick 23 in 2016.
Pick 36 in 2016.

So in my earlier post, and again not saying we would draft these players, but if we kept these picks we would have taken four players:

Pick 7 in 2017 was Hunter-Clarke. Naughton was also available and taken at pick 9 in 2017.

Pick 26 in 2017 was Liam Ryan. Sam Taylor was there at 28 and Bailey Fritsch went 31.

Pick 23 in 2016 was Alex Witderden. Shai Bolton went 29, Zac Fisher 27, Branden Parfitt 26 and Patrick Lipinski 28.

Pick 36 in 2016 was Josh Williams (no idea). Sean Darcy went 38, Josh Battle 39 and Tom Stewart 40.


We didn't get a pick back from the Suns. In a separate move, we sent a number of picks to Carlton for their 2017 second round pick. Which we moved for Wingard (we sent pick 15, 35 and Burton to Port for Chad).
 
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Stratton24

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It's a complicate deal, given we needed to bring in the Saints and Carlton.

But effectively, we parted with:

Pick 7 in 2017.
Pick 26 in 2017.
Pick 23 in 2016.
Pick 36 in 2016.

So in my earlier post, and again not saying we would draft these players, but if we kept these picks we would have taken four players:

Pick 7 in 2017 was Hunter-Clarke. Naughton was also available and taken at pick 9 in 2017.

Pick 26 in 2017 was Liam Ryan. Sam Taylor was there at 28 and Bailey Fritsch went 31.

Pick 23 in 2016 was Alex Witderden. Shai Bolton went 29, Zac Fisher 27, Branden Parfitt 26 and Patrick Lipinski 28.

Pick 36 in 2016 was Josh Williams (no idea). Sean Darcy went 38, Josh Battle 39 and Tom Stewart 40.


We didn't get a pick back from the Suns. In a separate move, we sent a number of picks to Carlton for their 2017 second round pick. Which we moved for Wingard (we sent pick 15, 35 and Burton to Port for Chad).
Based on how we draft and the need for mids it could have easily been:
Pick 7 in 2017. Aiden Bonar
Pick 26 in 2017. James Worpel or Charlie Constable
Pick 23 in 2016. Patrick Lipinski
Pick 36 in 2016. Myles Poholke

and in 2018 we would have taken Liam Stocker and at 35 Jacob Koschitzke as we rated him highly

we used our 2017 second round pick that we got back from Carlton to trade for Impey, it had nothing to do with the Wingard trade as that was 2018.
 

Pessimistic

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It's a complicate deal, given we needed to bring in the Saints and Carlton.

But effectively, we parted with:

Pick 7 in 2017.
Pick 26 in 2017.
Pick 23 in 2016.
Pick 36 in 2016.

So in my earlier post, and again not saying we would draft these players, but if we kept these picks we would have taken four players:

Pick 7 in 2017 was Hunter-Clarke. Naughton was also available and taken at pick 9 in 2017.

Pick 26 in 2017 was Liam Ryan. Sam Taylor was there at 28 and Bailey Fritsch went 31.

Pick 23 in 2016 was Alex Witderden. Shai Bolton went 29, Zac Fisher 27, Branden Parfitt 26 and Patrick Lipinski 28.

Pick 36 in 2016 was Josh Williams (no idea). Sean Darcy went 38, Josh Battle 39 and Tom Stewart 40.


We didn't get a pick back from the Suns. In a separate move, we sent a number of picks to Carlton for their 2017 second round pick. Which we moved for Wingard (we sent pick 15, 35 and Burton to Port for Chad).
id imagine half the clubs could have recruited them too
 

Jazzfan

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Based on how we draft and the need for mids it could have easily been:
Pick 7 in 2017. Aiden Bonar
Pick 26 in 2017. James Worpel or Charlie Constable
Pick 23 in 2016. Patrick Lipinski
Pick 36 in 2016. Myles Poholk

and in 2018 we would have taken Liam Stocker and at 35 Jacob Koschitzke as we rated him highly

we used our 2017 second round pick that we got back from Carlton to trade for Impey, it had nothing to do with the Wingard trade as that was 2018.
Thanks for clarifying where that second rounder from the Blues actually went. A great get for Impey.

Like I said, I don't know who we would have drafted in. I'm just breaking it down after a poster said we wouldn't have had an opportunity to draft players better than O'Meara (or Mitchell).

I think it's clear that opportunity would have been available, even if it's a sum of the four players. But as you point out, there is no guarantee that we draft any of the players I have mentioned that were available. And in which case, we would be discussing our poor drafting instead.

It does starkly highlight the draft assets we gave up however. Especially when you add the Wingard trade. Mitchell was a total steal.
 
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rogiebear93

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Its speculative of course but Hunter, Naughton, Ryan, Fritsch, Bolton and Stewart is nigh on a complete rebuild.
Indeed it does, if you cherry pick the names from those drafts and assume that we would have picked them if we could, and put them all together like we could have had them all.

Ryan was never going anywhere but West Coast, Stewart never going anywhere but Geelong.
 
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