Analysis Clarko in 2019 “We’re a middle of the road team”

[Hawk_francais]

Famous words uttered by Alastair Clarkson after our 2019 loss to Melbourne.

“Right now we’re looking at our group and saying we’re a middle of the road side,” Clarkson said post-game.

“So we can continue going down that track and end up a middle of the road side for next four or five years, but that’s not the way we go about it so we’ve got to search for it. Some will be methodology and some will be personnel.

“We can’t turn everything around quickly and we can’t throw everything out and try something radically new either, we’ve just got to pick the moments.

“It sounds like it’s going to be catastrophic change, it’s not going to be any of that, but we’re not a side that sits around and wallows in the middle part of the ladder for too long.

“Right at the minute the ladder accurately reflects where Hawthorn sits.”

The team line-up in that game:

Hardwick, Brand, Impey
Scully, Stratton, Gunston
Smith, O’Meara, Howe
Puopolo, O’Brien, Sicily
Breust, Roughead, Wingard
McEvoy, Worpel, Shiels
Moore, Burgoyne, Henderson, M.Lewis

Out: Scully, Stratton, Smith, Puopolo, Roughead, Henderson (retired) Brand (trade)
Sicily, Gunston, Burgoyne (fitness)

In: Scrimshaw, CJ, Hartigan, Hartley, Morrison, Brockman, Frost, Ceglar, Mitchell, Phillips

Nick Dal Santo

Nick Dal Santo

Age

40

Ht

185cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

22.9

5star

K

13.0

5star

HB

9.9

5star

M

3.7

4star

T

3.6

5star

CL

4.0

5star

No current season stats available

D

13.2

4star

K

6.8

3star

HB

6.4

4star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.2

4star

said of us last year: “You can’t keep picking the same faces when you’re losing”, and yet this shows that we keep coming back to the same players in the same positions who are not getting the job done, only making changes when players retire or leave. Why?

It’s time to see a different midfield mix, it’s time to see Kosi, Jeka being given time up forward. It’s time to see Maginness, Cousins, Scrimshaw, Moore, Morrison, Phillips somebody else on-ball. Time to see Downie on the wing.

We are on track to wallow around the middle part of the ladder exactly as Clarko stated he didn’t want to. It’s time to hand over the keys to the youngsters and let’s see if they really crash the SUV.

 

[Zack]

Famous words uttered by Alastair Clarkson after our 2019 loss to Melbourne.

we should ask him where he sees us now? Bottom 4 or just possibly better than NM.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

We dream of being a middle of the road team.

 

[Billyc]

I think you are being optimistic if you think we are middle of the road. We were bottom 4 last year and all signs are pointing to a similar outcome this year

 

[HODGEYROAD]

I think you are being optimistic if you think we are middle of the road. We were bottom 4 last year and all signs are pointing to a similar outcome this year

Starting to look like it wasn't the hubs after all.

 

[Spursfan]

Starting to look like it wasn't the hubs after all.

Fair go , we're giving a far better effort this year. Terrible skills and lack of top end talent killing us.

 

[Luv_our_club]

Does this need a thread?

From now on this is every game day thread, every autopsy thread, and every other thread for the rest of the year.

We are rebuilding folks.

 

[Strattonsphere]

We are four games into the season.. Have lost to two premiership favourites and one over in Perth.. Did anyone expect any different?

On SM-G980F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Out: Scully, Stratton, Smith, Puopolo, Roughead, Henderson (retired) Brand (trade)
Sicily, Gunston, Burgoyne (fitness)

In: Scrimshaw, CJ, Hartigan, Hartley, Morrison, Brockman, Frost, Ceglar, Mitchell, Phillips

Nick Dal Santo said of us last year: “You can’t keep picking the same faces when you’re losing”, and yet this shows that we keep coming back to the same players in the same positions who are not getting the job done, only making changes when players retire or leave. Why?

With Day un-injured and playing today we would have half the 22 turned over in two off seasons.

That is a lot of players.

 

[Hawk_francais]

With Day un-injured and playing today we would have half the 22 turned over in two off seasons.

That is a lot you of players.

1. I don’t think that’s correct. Adding in unfit players would mean Gunston, Sicily and Burgoyne would all come in too.
2. The number is not even really important, today’s team is a patch-up job on the old one, mostly using mature discards from other clubs.
3. I’m not trying to be negative, and I’m not impatient. Lots of posters here are just whining about players they don’t like after a poor loss. But I believe it’s actually the club who are being impatient. They don’t want to play youngsters and risk non-competitive performances, and would seemingly rather run the risk of perpetual mediocrity.

We are dangerously close to Ross Lyon territory.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I don’t think that’s correct

But it is correct.

Cj, Day, Scrimshaw, Hartigan, Hartley, Morrison, Brockman, Frost, Ceglar, Mitchell, Phillips is 11 players different from 2019.

Factor in that Downie and Finn will likely be seen more of as the year progresses, that Kosi has also had some games and that Jeka and DGB will debut before years end and we’re talking about between 8-12 players different from the 2019 squad you named (even if you factor in that Hartley, Brockman and Ceglar go back to Box Hill), from only 2 years ago.

That’s pretty good turnover.

 

[Lickmesocks]

I came into the season with the knowledge we wouldn’t get much out of Sicily and Gunston and had us bottom 4 with 6-8 wins.

nothing has changed.

we were lucky against Essendon.

Tigers toyed with us all day despite what others believe to be something different. When they needed too they stepped up a cog and did enough to get through.

we lost to Geelong without Dangerfield, Jeremy Cameron

5

Jeremy Cameron

Age

31

Ht

196cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.5

3star

K

9.0

3star

HB

3.4

3star

M

5.4

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

2.6

5star

D

10.0

3star

K

7.1

3star

HB

2.9

2star

M

4.6

4star

T

2.0

3star

G

1.9

5star

D

8.2

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

3.2

3star

M

4.6

5star

T

2.4

4star

G

2.0

5star

and the other big midfielder that dominates us and we let Guthrie and a returning Duncan have 80 between them. Yep Guthrie and Duncan.

we turned up to Perth on a short break and were as bad as anytime we were in the hub in the first qtr. we should of been 60 down to be honest at qtr time .

something needs to change .

Clarko needs to say forget playing the average soldiers to maybe keep us close and roll the dice with kids and get 18 extra games into them.

I keep hearing clarko and the commentators bang on about a young side. That is total BS.

McEvoy Burgoyne Ceglar O’Brien Hartigan Mitchell Omeara Shiels Wingard Impey Frost Hartley Breust are not young when it comes to footy experience.

That is 13 players that have been in the system for 8 years or longer playing regular senior footy with Gunners about to be number 14.

this whole we are young crap is total rubbish.

we are stuck in no mans land. Clarko is caught between managing his own ego and trying to keep us competitive.

our two young key forwards were taken at pick 50 odd and pick 70 odd (Kosi and Lewis)

While we continue to plod along and be competitive the list above grows another year older and closer to the end.

 

[Brishawk]

1. I don’t think that’s correct. Adding in unfit players would mean Gunston, Sicily and Burgoyne would all come in too.
2. The number is not even really important, today’s team is a patch-up job on the old one, mostly using mature discards from other clubs.
3. I’m not trying to be negative, and I’m not impatient. Lots of posters here are just whining about players they don’t like after a poor loss. But I believe it’s actually the club who are being impatient. They don’t want to play youngsters and risk non-competitive performances, and would seemingly rather run the risk of perpetual mediocrity.

We are dangerously close to Ross Lyon territory.

The club don’t want to play only youngsters. And they don’t want to play all the youngsters at the same time. But that isn’t the same as not playing youngsters. Lewis, Moore, Morrison, brockman, day, hanrahan, Kosi, Cj, and scrimshaw all getting games this year. Not all are going to play every week. I’m sure we will see at least a couple of changes this week. Cousins and greaves probably likely candidates. Maybe Nash or Kosi to come in too.

 

[Brishawk]

I came into the season with the knowledge we wouldn’t get much out of Sicily and Gunston and had us bottom 4 with 6-8 wins.

nothing has changed.

we were lucky against Essendon.

Tigers toyed with us all day despite what others believe to be something different. When they needed too they stepped up a cog and did enough to get through.

we lost to Geelong without Dangerfield, Jeremy Cameron and the other big midfielder that dominates us and we let Guthrie and a returning Duncan have 40 between them. Yep Guthrie and Duncan.

we turned up to Perth on a short break and were as bad as anytime we were in the hub in the first qtr. we should of been 60 down to be honest at qtr time .

something needs to change .

Clarko needs to say forget playing the average soldiers to maybe keep us close and roll the dice with kids and get 18 extra games into them.

I keep hearing clarko and the commentators bang on about a young side. That is total BS.

McEvoy Burgoyne Ceglar O’Brien Hartigan Mitchell Omeara Shiels Wingard Impey Frost Hartley Breust are not young when it comes to footy experience.

That is 13 players that have been in the system for 8 years or longer playing regular senior footy with Gunners about to be number 14.

this whole we are young crap is total rubbish.

we are stuck in no mans land. Clarko is caught between managing his own ego and trying to keep us competitive.

our two young key forwards were taken at pick 50 odd and pick 70 odd (Kosi and Lewis)

While we continue to plod along and be competitive the list above grows another year older and closer to the end.

Why do you think playing kids who aren’t ready in the seniors is better than developing at vfl level? And why is rotating young players through the senior team with experience around them worse than coming into the senior team and having less experience around them?

 

[The Chad and I]

With Day and CJ doing excellent intercept and rebound work from defence, Sicily must return to the forward line.

Our forward options are pretty good IMO.
Sicily, Gunston, Lewis
Breust, Wingard, Moore, Brockman

Midfield needs more talent, so we desperately need to get a FA and/or trade for an elite talent.

 

[Hawk_francais]

But it is correct.

Cj, Day, Scrimshaw, Hartigan, Hartley, Morrison, Brockman, Frost, Ceglar, Mitchell, Phillips is 11 players different from 2019.

Factor in that Downie and Finn will likely be seen more of as the year progresses, that Kosi has also had some games and that Jeka and DGB will debut before years end and we’re talking about between 8-12 players different from the 2019 squad you named (even if you factor in that Hartley, Brockman and Ceglar go back to Box Hill), from only 2 years ago.

That’s pretty good turnover.

Erm, it’s not correct. Not all of those players are in our current best 22, but Burgoyne, Gunston and Sicily clearly are. Hartley certainly doesn’t count, Hartigan, Brockman and maybe even Phillips squeezed out with a full bill of health..

If your point is that we have talent to come in, I agree with you. If you’re suggesting all those players will play meaningful minutes... I worry.

The club don’t want to play only youngsters. And they don’t want to play all the youngsters at the same time. But that isn’t the same as not playing youngsters. Lewis, Moore, Morrison, brockman, day, hanrahan, Kosi, Cj, and scrimshaw all getting games this year. Not all are going to play every week. I’m sure we will see at least a couple of changes this week. Cousins and greaves probably likely candidates. Maybe Nash or Kosi to come in too.

I understand the strategy, but it hasn’t worked. Look at the turnover since 2019... look at it! In terms of development it’s only Morrison, CJ, Scrimshaw who are just beginning to establish themselves over the past few weeks.

Worse than that is the fact that Scrimshaw, Lewis and Morrison have been often left out of the side in favour of older players who are now gone. They should be consistent young leaders for us, but instead they’ve barely played 30-40 afl games. We banked on a faster rise up the ladder, and it didn’t work. Let’s not make the same mistake again with Downie, Maginness, Koschitzke.

 

[Brishawk]

Erm, it’s not correct. Not all of those players are in our current best 22, but Burgoyne, Gunston and Sicily clearly are. Hartley certainly doesn’t count, Hartigan, Brockman and maybe even Phillips squeezed out with a full bill of health..

If your point is that we have talent to come in, I agree with you. If you’re suggesting all those players will play meaningful minutes... I worry.


I understand the strategy, but it hasn’t worked. Look at the turnover since 2019... look at it! In terms of development it’s only Morrison, CJ, Scrimshaw who are just beginning to establish themselves over the past few weeks.

Worse than that is the fact that Scrimshaw, Lewis and Morrison have been often left out of the side in favour of older players who are now gone. They should be consistent young leaders for us, but instead they’ve barely played 30-40 afl games. We banked on a faster rise up the ladder, and it didn’t work. Let’s not make the same mistake again with Downie, Maginness, Koschitzke.

You are making an assumption that they were denied games for some reason. Lewis was s**t last year. Plain and simple. We needed him and he was so terrible we couldn’t play him. Morrison played games last year. Young players a tend going to thrive just because they are in the senior team. Usually the opposite hence they go in and out of the side. We aren’t playing guys like Howe and O’Brien to rise up the ladder. We play them for their AFL ready bodies and ability to play a role that supports the team. I’m sure Clarko knows exactly where those players are at.

I think you need to appreciate not all players can player AFL from day one and sometimes they will develop better playing at a lower level. Sucks for our senior team but I think we are taking the long view with these playerslike Finn, Downie and Morris.

 

[Hawk_francais]

You are making an assumption that they were denied games for some reason. Lewis was sh*t last year. Plain and simple. We needed him and he was so terrible we couldn’t play him. Morrison played games last year. Young players a tend going to thrive just because they are in the senior team. Usually the opposite hence they go in and out of the side. We aren’t playing guys like Howe and O’Brien to rise up the ladder. We play them for their AFL ready bodies and ability to play a role that supports the team. I’m sure Clarko knows exactly where those players are at.

I think you need to appreciate not all players can player AFL from day one and sometimes they will develop better playing at a lower level. Sucks for our senior team but I think we are taking the long view with these playerslike Finn, Downie and Morris.

We’ve disagreed about this before. Lewis had an interrupted preseason, and was then played behind Patton as a general rule. He didn’t become sh*t suddenly. The club didn’t prioritise him, plain and simple.

As for being denied games.. yes it happened. Clarko said it himself in the preseason about Morrison playing out of position for years to accommodate Smith and Henderson on the wing.

O’Brien: I also thought Clarko knew where he was at. Then he dropped him and recalled him in the space of two weeks. Absolute nowhere-land is where he’s at now, and the coaches are to blame as much as him.

Edit: I think if we’re all perfectly honest, there was a rebuild to be had in 2017, and it didn’t happen. The club backed themselves in, we backed them in. But we’re still paying the price.

 

[Bruno Oresar]

Unfortunately I think Clarko’s time is up. He doesn’t outcoach anyone on game day - see the last 3 first quarters we’ve played. He has overseen a football department responsible for middle of the road turnover merchants. We have zero key position talent. We are poo. We will finish bottom 4 this year and next. Clock is ticking on Clarko. Only a matter of time. No finals success in 6 to 7 years - not good enough. He is responsible. Wake up Hawks fans. He has had long enough at the helm.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

I came into the season with the knowledge we wouldn’t get much out of Sicily and Gunston and had us bottom 4 with 6-8 wins.

nothing has changed.

we were lucky against Essendon.

Tigers toyed with us all day despite what others believe to be something different. When they needed too they stepped up a cog and did enough to get through.

we lost to Geelong without Dangerfield, Jeremy Cameron and the other big midfielder that dominates us and we let Guthrie and a returning Duncan have 40 between them. Yep Guthrie and Duncan.

we turned up to Perth on a short break and were as bad as anytime we were in the hub in the first qtr. we should of been 60 down to be honest at qtr time .

something needs to change .

Clarko needs to say forget playing the average soldiers to maybe keep us close and roll the dice with kids and get 18 extra games into them.

I keep hearing clarko and the commentators bang on about a young side. That is total BS.

McEvoy Burgoyne Ceglar O’Brien Hartigan Mitchell Omeara Shiels Wingard Impey Frost Hartley Breust are not young when it comes to footy experience.

That is 13 players that have been in the system for 8 years or longer playing regular senior footy with Gunners about to be number 14.

this whole we are young crap is total rubbish.

we are stuck in no mans land. Clarko is caught between managing his own ego and trying to keep us competitive.

our two young key forwards were taken at pick 50 odd and pick 70 odd (Kosi and Lewis)

While we continue to plod along and be competitive the list above grows another year older and closer to the end.

Nailed it dude.

 

[theiaofseed]

[1]we were lucky against Essendon.

[2]Tigers toyed with us all day despite what others believe to be something different. When they needed too they stepped up a cog and did enough to get through.

[3]we lost to Geelong without Dangerfield, Jeremy Cameron and the other big midfielder that dominates us and we let Guthrie and a returning Duncan have 40 between them. Yep Guthrie and Duncan.

[4]Clarko needs to say forget playing the average soldiers to maybe keep us close and roll the dice with kids and get 18 extra games into them.

I keep hearing clarko and the commentators bang on about a young side. That is total BS.

McEvoy Burgoyne Ceglar O’Brien Hartigan Mitchell Omeara Shiels Wingard Impey Frost Hartley Breust are not young when it comes to footy experience.

That is 13 players that have been in the system for 8 years or longer playing regular senior footy with Gunners about to be number 14.

this whole we are young crap is total rubbish.

we are stuck in no mans land. Clarko is caught between managing his own ego and trying to keep us competitive.

[5]our two young key forwards were taken at pick 50 odd and pick 70 odd (Kosi and Lewis)

While we continue to plod along and be competitive the list above grows another year older and closer to the end.

[1] Out played them for 3 out of 4 quarters, it wasn't a lucky win don't rewrite history to match your opinion.

[2]The best side of the last 4 years, out classed a bottom 4 side, impressive observation mate.

[3]We were missing Gunston, Sicily, Day every bit equal to their 3 outs, as for Gutherie have you paid any attention to him over the last two years? Clearly you haven't and as for Ducan he's been elite for 5 years.

[4] The bold aren't best 22 or wouldn't be missed if they weren't playing, Mitchell, Omerea, Wingard, Impey and Frost will all still playing in 5 years( so very old).

[5] Why does it matter where they were taken in the draft???

 

[theiaofseed]

Unfortunately I think Clarko’s time is up. He doesn’t outcoach anyone on game day - see the last 3 first quarters we’ve played. He has overseen a football department responsible for middle of the road turnover merchants. We have zero key position talent. We are poo. We will finish bottom 4 this year and next. Clock is ticking on Clarko. Only a matter of time. No finals success in 6 to 7 years - not good enough. He is responsible. Wake up Hawks fans. He has had long enough at the helm.

7 years ago we just went b2b

 

[PhatHQ]

1. I don’t think that’s correct. Adding in unfit players would mean Gunston, Sicily and Burgoyne would all come in too.
2. The number is not even really important, today’s team is a patch-up job on the old one, mostly using mature discards from other clubs.
3. I’m not trying to be negative, and I’m not impatient. Lots of posters here are just whining about players they don’t like after a poor loss. But I believe it’s actually the club who are being impatient. They don’t want to play youngsters and risk non-competitive performances, and would seemingly rather run the risk of perpetual mediocrity.

We are dangerously close to Ross Lyon territory.

We’re not even ninth-mond at the moment. It really looks a lot like the Carlton teams that just never got off the floor when you take 2020 into account

 

[Smithdogmaddog]

It's okay to be down the bottom of the ladder as long as we are giving young players opportunities and preparing for the future, Clarko refuses to do this. He's full of crap the last few years.

 

[Xtreme]

We are four games into the season.. Have lost to two premiership favourites and one over in Perth.. Did anyone expect any different?

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I thought we'd be 4 - 0

At least I am in AFL Evolution 2!!!