Class Warfare

[kickazz]

Happening all over the Western world.

A generation gets wealthy from their nation's Keynesian policies, then uses their cash to buy foreign goods or invest in companies using foreign labour.

And we wonder why Brexit, Trump, etc.

 

[Grin]

Broaden the tax base to include so called "religious organisations" and we will have the $ to fix the budget black holes.

How do you raise taxes from not for profit organisations?

 

[Crankyhawk]

How do you raise taxes from not for profit organisations?

There are religious organisations that own corporations that are for profit (I think it was mentioned in the separate tax the religion thread). Will link when not on iPhone

 

[workhorse]

How do you raise taxes from not for profit organisations?

yep!

Sanitarium is the best known religious corporation — wholly owned by the Seventh-day Adventist Church, with a 2010 turnover of $550 million and a staff of more than 1500. All tax-exempt.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/re...x/news-story/2a96bc23043ffbbbb0327b64f8350802

from the religious tax discussion

 

[Power Raid]

How do you raise taxes from not for profit organisations?

not for profit doesn't mean no profit.

they should still get tax deductions for charity but the money they siphon back to the Vatican or into their own pockets should be taxed. Estimates vary as to the amount this would collect but $20b-35b pa would be quite handy.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Broaden the tax base to wealth rather than just wealth creation and suddenly the class warfare disappears

Yes we get it you want to tax the family home so that developers can run further amok.

 

[Power Raid]

Yes we get it you want to tax the family home so that developers can run further amok.

the beauty of land tax is it makes land a socialist asset and recoups community investment benefiting land owners. The higher the public benefit provided = higher land value = higher tax.

why should the poor pay for infrastructure, for the wealthy, that makes them wealthier?

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Next gear = Say goodbye to pork from your supermarkets.

True, it will be put into barrels to be handed out in key areas of western Sydney and SEQ.

 

[Rear Admiral]

In regards to business....particularly small businesses....and Penalty Rates.

I want to make it clear that what I'm posting here are comments I've heard from some small business owner I've chatted to. That's not to say these comments are necessarily right or wrong, but I am not the one conjuring them up.

Trying to be as close as possible to word-for-word:

The main problem is that since almost all manufacturing and I.T./Finance/Call Centre jobs have gone off-shore, or been made obsolete because of technological unemployment....we Aussies have taken up small businesses like never before. The most obvious ones that spring to mind are cafes and eateries, but there are many other types. The problem is, in many sectors, these types of small businesses have completely and utterly over-saturated the market. And massively so. As a result, many of these small businesses simply aren't earning enough revenue to make them viable, yet councils and local governments allow almost anyone to set up a small business anywhere, regardless of the bigger picture. Sure, wages are an issue, but nowhere near as much as the lack of spending customer numbers walking through the door. The problem is, as soon as there's some sort of business/economic issue, the Government always looks at the lowest common denominator - workers and wages. These people I chatted to said that the whole wages issue needs to be looked into, bigtime, but nowhere near as important as our whole economic structure. And especially how we're allowing cheap overseas wages to wipe Australia off the map.

I'm of the opinion that unless we sit down and seriously assess and restructure how our entire economy is functioning....simply arguing about Penalty Rates (either keep, change, or get of them) isn't going to help matters all that much. We need to think a helluva lot deeper than that. What I can say for certain is that all these people sitting on their property investments (especially those reaping rent from commercial leases) need a serious wake up call. Your rental profits can't keep going up and up, while those small businesses paying your rent are barely able to scrape by.

 

[Rear Admiral]

Broaden the tax base to wealth rather than just wealth creation and suddenly the class warfare disappears

You referring mainly to land ownership?

 

[Power Raid]

You referring mainly to land ownership?

and underutilised investments that don't stimulate the economy, like deposits

thresholds apply of course, as it is supposed to be targeting the wealthy



our biggest issue is still tax evasion though through cash businesses, charities, not for profits and gambling (laundering). Internationally the big wealth scam is front running of government investments. All of these really hurt the poor and the ordinary guy.

 

[Power Raid]

In regards to business....particularly small businesses....and Penalty Rates.

I want to make it clear that what I'm posting here are comments I've heard from some small business owner I've chatted to. That's not to say these comments are necessarily right or wrong, but I am not the one conjuring them up.

Trying to be as close as possible to word-for-word:

The main problem is that since almost all manufacturing and I.T./Finance/Call Centre jobs have gone off-shore, or been made obsolete because of technological unemployment....we Aussies have taken up small businesses like never before. The most obvious ones that spring to mind are cafes and eateries, but there are many other types. The problem is, in many sectors, these types of small businesses have completely and utterly over-saturated the market. And massively so. As a result, many of these small businesses simply aren't earning enough revenue to make them viable, yet councils and local governments allow almost anyone to set up a small business anywhere, regardless of the bigger picture. Sure, wages are an issue, but nowhere near as much as the lack of spending customer numbers walking through the door. The problem is, as soon as there's some sort of business/economic issue, the Government always looks at the lowest common denominator - workers and wages. These people I chatted to said that the whole wages issue needs to be looked into, bigtime, but nowhere near as important as our whole economic structure. And especially how we're allowing cheap overseas wages to wipe Australia off the map.

I'm of the opinion that unless we sit down and seriously assess and restructure how our entire economy is functioning....simply arguing about Penalty Rates (either keep, change, or get of them) isn't going to help matters all that much. We need to think a helluva lot deeper than that. What I can say for certain is that all these people sitting on their property investments (especially those reaping rent from commercial leases) need a serious wake up call. Your rental profits can't keep going up and up, while those small businesses paying your rent are barely able to scrape by.

I would love to see the break down of expenses for a cafe

- food and drink inputs
- wages
- rent
- utilities

I'd guess in that order

I hope we look at property prices and rental rates a little harder

 

[Rear Admiral]

Very, very much appreciate the reply.

I don't quite get what you're referring to with this comment:

and underutilised investments that don't stimulate the economy, like deposits

Not entirely sure I agree with the points below:

our biggest issue is still tax evasion though through cash businesses, charities, not for profits and gambling (laundering).

These are definitely a problem, but not sure they're at the top of the list; I'm thinking the biggest problems in Australia (at the moment) are Negative Gearing and Multinationals dodging taxes.

Few things I'd like to see change is our taxation system. In particular:

Governments taxing people on all manner of Registration/Stamp Duty type transactions, and especially Payroll Tax (which I hate). Nobody has "necessarily" made any profit from anything, but the Government is taxing people/organisations purely because some sort of legal or financial transaction has taken place.
Get rid of that crap entirely. Taxation should apply purely to profits and assets (e.g. land)....not simply because some sort of legal transaction has taken place. Also, I hate the whole concept of:

"Ok, we'll introduce New-Tax-A, but we'll rebate/compensate certain people for it." (e.g. like the GST)

Stop all this complication, and taxing and rebating people. i.e. double handling of money. F*ck that off entirely.
I want to see wealthy people taxed more, absolutely, but I also want to see the taxation system massively streamlined. The way I would go about it is have sets of tax scales:

• One for individuals and private businesses.
• Another for publicly owned companies (i.e. with Shareholders)
• A scale of Land Tax.

Abolish all these stupid pain in the arse additional taxes and deductions, getting rid of every last sort of consumption tax, stamp duty, etc. Just massively simplify things, but have a much greater burden on big business profits....particularly public companies. That way, small businesses won't be able to complain they're being unfairly taxed. One of the big problems we face at the moment is the small family businesses that earn f*ck all are being treated entirely too much like big businesses, in terms of taxation. Entirely different rules need to apply to each type.

 

[Power Raid]

Very, very much appreciate the reply.

I don't quite get what you're referring to with this comment:



Not entirely sure I agree with the points below:



These are definitely a problem, but not sure they're at the top of the list; I'm thinking the biggest problems in Australia (at the moment) are Negative Gearing and Multinationals dodging taxes.

Few things I'd like to see change is our taxation system. In particular:

Governments taxing people on all manner of Registration/Stamp Duty type transactions, and especially Payroll Tax (which I hate). Nobody has "necessarily" made any profit from anything, but the Government is taxing people/organisations purely because some sort of legal or financial transaction has taken place.
Get rid of that crap entirely. Taxation should apply purely to profits and assets (e.g. land)....not simply because some sort of legal transaction has taken place. Also, I hate the whole concept of:

"Ok, we'll introduce New-Tax-A, but we'll rebate/compensate certain people for it." (e.g. like the GST)

Stop all this complication, and taxing and rebating people. i.e. double handling of money. F*ck that off entirely.
I want to see wealthy people taxed more, absolutely, but I also want to see the taxation system massively streamlined. The way I would go about it is have sets of tax scales:

• One for individuals and private businesses.
• Another for publicly owned companies (i.e. with Shareholders)
• A scale of Land Tax.

Abolish all these stupid pain in the arse additional taxes and deductions, getting rid of every last sort of consumption tax, stamp duty, etc. Just massively simplify things, but have a much greater burden on big business profits....particularly public companies. That way, small businesses won't be able to complain they're being unfairly taxed. One of the big problems we face at the moment is the small family businesses that earn f*ck all are being treated entirely too much like big businesses, in terms of taxation. Entirely different rules need to apply to each type.

I think we are on the same page with most things.

I will point out negative gearing isn't just property meaning it is impossible to address fairly or without benefiting the rich.

CGT should be the focus but unlike labor's idea, the changes should promote long term investment rather than Labor's speculative short term investments.


The "biggest issue" I mentioned would net $19b to $30b per annum in taxes just by addressing religion alone. That's pretty big.

And yes, cross border tax evasion is a real issue. This is coming to an end though with the changes and co-operation globally. Give it another 10 years and it will be resolved.

 

[Power Raid]

Very, very much appreciate the reply.

I don't quite get what you're referring to with this comment:



Not entirely sure I agree with the points below:



These are definitely a problem, but not sure they're at the top of the list; I'm thinking the biggest problems in Australia (at the moment) are Negative Gearing and Multinationals dodging taxes.

Few things I'd like to see change is our taxation system. In particular:

Governments taxing people on all manner of Registration/Stamp Duty type transactions, and especially Payroll Tax (which I hate). Nobody has "necessarily" made any profit from anything, but the Government is taxing people/organisations purely because some sort of legal or financial transaction has taken place.
Get rid of that crap entirely. Taxation should apply purely to profits and assets (e.g. land)....not simply because some sort of legal transaction has taken place. Also, I hate the whole concept of:

"Ok, we'll introduce New-Tax-A, but we'll rebate/compensate certain people for it." (e.g. like the GST)

Stop all this complication, and taxing and rebating people. i.e. double handling of money. F*ck that off entirely.
I want to see wealthy people taxed more, absolutely, but I also want to see the taxation system massively streamlined. The way I would go about it is have sets of tax scales:

• One for individuals and private businesses.
• Another for publicly owned companies (i.e. with Shareholders)
• A scale of Land Tax.

Abolish all these stupid pain in the arse additional taxes and deductions, getting rid of every last sort of consumption tax, stamp duty, etc. Just massively simplify things, but have a much greater burden on big business profits....particularly public companies. That way, small businesses won't be able to complain they're being unfairly taxed. One of the big problems we face at the moment is the small family businesses that earn f*ck all are being treated entirely too much like big businesses, in terms of taxation. Entirely different rules need to apply to each type.

Oh and ex pusser?

Why rear admiral?

 

[Present Not Past]

It's interesting to note the commonwealth can't make laws about religion but it has done by giving them tax free status.

And yes, they should be taxed

Tell me this. When I donate money to my church, the money I donate has already been taxed. Whey should the government then tax that money a 2nd time?

 

[Pessimistic]

Tell me this. When I donate money to my church, the money I donate has already been taxed. Whey should the government then tax that money a 2nd time?

Like GST?

 

[Rear Admiral]

Tell me this. When I donate money to my church, the money I donate has already been taxed. Whey should the government then tax that money a 2nd time?

The same applies when you buy something - even though you've been taxed on your wages (i.e. the money you use to spend), the business you're buying something from also gets taxed on the sale they've made (if they make a Net profit).

 

[Rear Admiral]

CGT

???

I personally try to avoid too many acronyms and abbreviations, for this very reason.

 

[Rear Admiral]

Why rear admiral?

Pure hetero male here, but no offence to the gay and bi community whatsoever. Just that I'm hetero.

Rear Admiral? -
Genius commenting from the Rear Echelons (no s*xual pun intended).

 

[Rear Admiral]

I hope we look at property prices and rental rates a little harder

I hope we look at property prices and rental rates a lot harder

 

[kickazz]

Can we afford a country with high wages AND significant company taxes?

Do we have it wrong on wanting multinationals to pay significant tax? What if we kept it minimal, would they be more likely to set up shop here and employ more Australians?

 

[Power Raid]

Tell me this. When I donate money to my church, the money I donate has already been taxed. Whey should the government then tax that money a 2nd time?

When you are "donating" it is a commercial transaction and they product they sell is faith, hope and story telling.

Add to that if anyone else owned a coffee shop or a breakfast cereal company, they pay tax. Why shouldn't a religion?

Oh and the most blatant example of religion offering tax fraud services is Scientology but the Roman Catholic Church is been one of the worst in $ terms. Hillsong would be another notable mention along with all the Asians who openly talk about shifting money between countries tax free and land banking property tax free.


Let's not confuse one's individual faith with a business organisation that preys on people's need to have faith.


Oh and health and education are tax free businesses in many countries and guess what.....they to are great money laundering businesses.

 

[Power Raid]

???

I personally try to avoid too many acronyms and abbreviations, for this very reason.

Capital gains tax.

The negative gearing is off setting expenses of investments against other income.

Labor wanted to limit the expenses to be offset only against investment income. The only issue with this is it preferentially benefits the wealthy, business owners and families with trusts. The poor and ordinary lose and the rich win.

The other issue Labor's policy would have done is destroyed business models that require long term investment before profitability. R&D, innovation, technology, research etc would all needed to shift overseas as investment in these areas becomes to expensive to hold.

If they are going to do their policy, they should revise and limit it to Real Property to avoid killing important industry.


Where we need to address the issue is capital gains tax. It will modestly ease housing prices, maintain investment in new construction and reduce the motivation for negative gearing.

Capital gains tax is a concept australia has but many other parts of the world don't have. It taxes the gain made buying and selling assets held for greater than one year. Below one year is generally considered income. The time thing is wish washy though as it is assessed on your intent at time of purchase rather than just what happened.

CGT was once discounted by inflation and tax paid at normal levels. This was an old school way of thinking and ignored the fact the income was actually made over many tax periods but being taxed in one lump sum.

To fix this inequity, simplify the tax calc, promote investment by the middle class and generate a properly functioning property and financial market the 50% CGT discount was introduced.

The 50% is too great and needs to be fixed especially for property. Simply changing the thresholds from 50% discount to say:
0% first year
8% second
20% third
30% fourth
50% fifth or more
Would promote long term investment and lower the attractiveness of negative gearing.

 

[Power Raid]

I hope we look at property prices and rental rates a lot harder

Indonesia, india and many other countries around the world are seeking to cut states in two and build new capital cities.

Supply and demand.

We have too much demand and too little supply and what new supply comes online needs a return. High density has perversely made the cost of running a city cheaper but the cost of owning a part of the city more expensive.

Another policy shifting wealth from the new comer to the established.