Teams Cleveland Browns - GPODAWUND [sic]

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son of meto said:
I don't think you support the Browns.
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If you mean, do I simply drink whatever bullshit they put out there--nope, I surely and most definitely do not buy the bullshit.

It is not hard to see the garbage that this regime puts out on the gridiron and understand the "analytics" scam being run here.

Don't mistake criticism that is dead on accurate with lack of "support". If anything, I could make a strong argument I care more about this team than those that simply bend over for what the FO gives them.
 
One more thing for this week---the "accomplishments" for this regime to date has been to trade out of top ten selections and accumulate draft picks.

It takes ZERO talent and/or ability to trade out of the top ten and accumulate draft picks. A guy with an IQ of 85 can successfully accomplish that.

The product they put out there every single week IS THEIR PRODUCT. They selected the receiving corp, they acquired the free agents, they selected the secondary.

1-18...let that sink in....they took a 4-12 team and turned it into ONE and EIGHTEEN.

You actually need to try to do that.
 

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AmericanCrow said:
One more thing for this week---the "accomplishments" for this regime to date has been to trade out of top ten selections and accumulate draft picks.

It takes ZERO talent and/or ability to trade out of the top ten and accumulate draft picks. A guy with an IQ of 85 can successfully accomplish that.

The product they put out there every single week IS THEIR PRODUCT. They selected the receiving corp, they acquired the free agents, they selected the secondary.

1-18...let that sink in....they took a 4-12 team and turned it into ONE and EIGHTEEN.

You actually need to try to do that.
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Frankly I haven't planted my flag to either the 'old guard' school of thinking, or the 'smartest man in the room' stuff, but when your 4-12 team is the best you can do you've got to try something different.

I think that's the genesis of the analytics approach. This franchise has been a total * up since The Return, the old way hasn't worked, and the entire roster needed to be overhauled. The only way to do that is bulk picks and FA.

What's the point of an A Grade QB on a team of dross? We may not be any better now, but at least we're trying to address a host of problems at once and being competitive. Last season we weren't even that!

Personally I think Hue is a great motivator but a s**t Coordinator - his play-calling sucks. Get an OC in and let him be the Great Motivator, get Garrett fit, get some receivers who don't blow, and get some maturity into Kizer and we'll see.

If there's genuinely no substantial improvement by 2018 then we've screwed the pooch yet again.
 
AmericanCrow said:
One more thing for this week---the "accomplishments" for this regime to date has been to trade out of top ten selections and accumulate draft picks.

It takes ZERO talent and/or ability to trade out of the top ten and accumulate draft picks. A guy with an IQ of 85 can successfully accomplish that.

The product they put out there every single week IS THEIR PRODUCT. They selected the receiving corp, they acquired the free agents, they selected the secondary.

1-18...let that sink in....they took a 4-12 team and turned it into ONE and EIGHTEEN.

You actually need to try to do that.
Click to expand...

I know you won't care for my argument, but there's a difference between blindly accepting whatever the front office says and giving them a chance.

You can keep on saying how we were 4-12 and now we're 1-18, but that's not because of incompetence. It's because they aren't trying to win now. So it's not like they're going out there and failing. There's a difference. They took over a roster that was never going to be better than 4-12.

They've said 2019/20 is when they expect to be competing. I certainly don't like the prospect of multiple losing seasons, but it's the route they've chosen to take. And I'll give them the chance to finish what they've started. Have they made mistakes? Yes, I think so. But who doesn't.

It's certainly not all doom and gloom. Both our offensive and defensive lines are set for some time to come, we've got 3 quality linebackers, tight ends who are making plays and pieces of a secondary. And I suspect this is the draft they've been targeting.

But hey, if it helps you then keep on complaining.
 
Barrels said:
Frankly I haven't planted my flag to either the 'old guard' school of thinking, or the 'smartest man in the room' stuff, but when your 4-12 team is the best you can do you've got to try something different.

I think that's the genesis of the analytics approach. This franchise has been a total **** up since The Return, the old way hasn't worked, and the entire roster needed to be overhauled. The only way to do that is bulk picks and FA.

What's the point of an A Grade QB on a team of dross? We may not be any better now, but at least we're trying to address a host of problems at once and being competitive. Last season we weren't even that!

Personally I think Hue is a great motivator but a s**t Coordinator - his play-calling sucks. Get an OC in and let him be the Great Motivator, get Garrett fit, get some receivers who don't blow, and get some maturity into Kizer and we'll see.

If there's genuinely no substantial improvement by 2018 then we've screwed the pooch yet again.
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The great fallacy with "trying something different" is assuming this franchise ever did anything correctly to start with.

It has NOTHING to do with old school--everything to do with running a professional organization.
 
Chris25 said:
I know you won't care for my argument, but there's a difference between blindly accepting whatever the front office says and giving them a chance.

You can keep on saying how we were 4-12 and now we're 1-18, but that's not because of incompetence. It's because they aren't trying to win now. So it's not like they're going out there and failing. There's a difference. They took over a roster that was never going to be better than 4-12.

They've said 2019/20 is when they expect to be competing. I certainly don't like the prospect of multiple losing seasons, but it's the route they've chosen to take. And I'll give them the chance to finish what they've started. Have they made mistakes? Yes, I think so. But who doesn't.

It's certainly not all doom and gloom. Both our offensive and defensive lines are set for some time to come, we've got 3 quality linebackers, tight ends who are making plays and pieces of a secondary. And I suspect this is the draft they've been targeting.

But hey, if it helps you then keep on complaining.
Click to expand...

The difference between you and I is boiled down to one basic thing:

You think these guys belong in the FO

I wouldn't hire them to run a peewee league team

I also strongly believe you way overinflate the value of our defense
 
AmericanCrow said:
The difference between you and I is boiled down to one basic thing:

You think these guys belong in the FO

I wouldn't hire them to run a peewee league team

I also strongly believe you way overinflate the value of our defense
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Totally agree, by any metric our defence is terrible, I'm not sure why people have the conception that it's any good, maybe they see who's starting at QB and assume its a hard nosed defensive side. Throw in Garrett and it's still well below average.
 
PostPaolo said:
By any metric our defence is terrible
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Considering McCourty and Kindred are top 10 at their position according to PFF, then obviously some metrics don't agree it's all terrible.

While I think Kirksey, Schobert and Collins have shown enough to suggest they can be long term prospects.

I don't think it's a misconception that there are pieces to be optimistic about.
 
Take it from a Raiders fan. Because there are parallels to draw here.

In the last decade of Al Davis's life, when he was running the franchise into the ground because he was senile, every year we'd say "next year", because Al was always trying to reload and win a championship the next year. Never rebuild. Anyway, there was really no light at the end of the tunnel because the owner was not fit to own, so everything flowing down would be terrible. Not until Al passed away and new ownership came in COULD there be hope again.

Luckily, our owner (Mark) knew he wasn't qualified to be a meddling owner, and nor was he interested in repeating the errors of his father during those senile years, where he would constantly fire coaches. Mark did a LOT right to fix the organization again. He not only hired a reputable up-and-coming GM with ties to the Raiders and Ron Wolf, but he stayed away and let the GM do his thing, and he gave him TIME to learn and improve. He also went about fixing the cultural problems inside the org, offering peace to all the former players/coaches that Al had burned and hated in the past. He set about fixing the finances, the cap, the culture, turning the org back into an INCLUSIVE family for all former Raiders, and he gave the GM he hired a 5 year contract -- which he then re-signed him to another 5 years after 4 years.

At first Reggie made a lot of mistakes, warming into the role, trial and error. But Reggie was clear he needed to totally burn the past, remove all the old yes-men, all the Al holdovers, and rebuild the org under his principles, with his own people hired, clear accord under him. So it took the Raiders about 4 or 5 years to REBUILD the org, to where they're now an expected playoff contender, not just the onfield performance, but the lockerroom, the front office, everything tightly and professionally run. He even ripped up all the old carpet and furnishings, laid new ones, built a new training facility, etc.

That's the kind of thing required when rebuilding -- a head honcho football guy (GM) who has the owner's confidence, who has 4-5 years of his contract guaranteed and then re-signed to another 4-5 years once the owner has seen dramatic improvement -- not just onfield again, but the whole culture, the facility, no rats or wolves in the building, a palpable sense inside the building of improvement happening. Progress on many fronts.

So....what I'm alluding to for your Browns is your owner is terrible, he made the errors of a senile Al Davis, constantly firing coaches and whole front offices the first few years of his ownership. So thruout the last 4 years, your Browns have NOT been progressing due to your owner. But IF, IF, he can hold onto this current front office and coaching staff for another 2-3 years, THEN you will start seeing real progress, especially if the word from football people and journalists and insiders is that INSIDE the Browns HQ there is a genuine sense of accord and confidence, not divisiveness. This year is only the 2nd year of the current FO and coaching staff. So like my Raiders, it took another 2 years before a leap was made to a 13-3 type team. As long as Haslam keeps things stable, then you will see this kind of on-field progress like my Raiders had ---- 2016 1-16, 2017 3-13, 2018 6-10, THEN year 4, 2019 13-3.
 
Chris25 said:
Considering McCourty and Kindred are top 10 at their position according to PFF, then obviously some metrics don't agree it's all terrible.

While I think Kirksey, Schobert and Collins have shown enough to suggest they can be long term prospects.

I don't think it's a misconception that there are pieces to be optimistic about.
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You really really need to get away from PFF. You do understand that it is comprised of guys currently off coaching staffs and/or out of work, right? That it is operated at the behest of Mr. Bengal, Chris Collinsworth.

These "ratings" are catalogued by these unemployed coaches who have ties to:

1) agents
2) players

If you don't think bias factors into these "ratings" you are kidding yourself mate.

They actually had the Browns offensive line AHEAD of Pittspuke at one point. That is laughable on the Browns best day.

You suggest Kirksey, Schobert and Collins are "long term projects"

Kirksey--3rd round
Schobert--4th round
Collins--now in his 5th NFL season

This is exactly the issues that I have continually and repeatedly warned about. They have NO impact players that change the game. Why? Because the Browns continually trade down and accumulate 3rd and 4th round picks.

They drafted 16 wide receivers in the 4th round and have exactly ZERO that can play the damn game.
Schobert/Kirksey are the kind of players you accumulate for depth---not to wait around for to "develop" (maybe)

My god--if Collins isn't an impact player by year 5 (and he isn't), you can wait around all you want....he is what he is.

Again, this is the difference between understanding how you build a team/win in the NFL and playing the "smartest guys in the room" fantasy land bullshit this FO engages in.
 
GG.exe said:
Take it from a Raiders fan. Because there are parallels to draw here.

In the last decade of Al Davis's life, when he was running the franchise into the ground because he was senile, every year we'd say "next year", because Al was always trying to reload and win a championship the next year. Never rebuild. Anyway, there was really no light at the end of the tunnel because the owner was not fit to own, so everything flowing down would be terrible. Not until Al passed away and new ownership came in COULD there be hope again.

Luckily, our owner (Mark) knew he wasn't qualified to be a meddling owner, and nor was he interested in repeating the errors of his father during those senile years, where he would constantly fire coaches. Mark did a LOT right to fix the organization again. He not only hired a reputable up-and-coming GM with ties to the Raiders and Ron Wolf, but he stayed away and let the GM do his thing, and he gave him TIME to learn and improve. He also went about fixing the cultural problems inside the org, offering peace to all the former players/coaches that Al had burned and hated in the past. He set about fixing the finances, the cap, the culture, turning the org back into an INCLUSIVE family for all former Raiders, and he gave the GM he hired a 5 year contract -- which he then re-signed him to another 5 years after 4 years.

At first Reggie made a lot of mistakes, warming into the role, trial and error. But Reggie was clear he needed to totally burn the past, remove all the old yes-men, all the Al holdovers, and rebuild the org under his principles, with his own people hired, clear accord under him. So it took the Raiders about 4 or 5 years to REBUILD the org, to where they're now an expected playoff contender, not just the onfield performance, but the lockerroom, the front office, everything tightly and professionally run. He even ripped up all the old carpet and furnishings, laid new ones, built a new training facility, etc.

That's the kind of thing required when rebuilding -- a head honcho football guy (GM) who has the owner's confidence, who has 4-5 years of his contract guaranteed and then re-signed to another 4-5 years once the owner has seen dramatic improvement -- not just onfield again, but the whole culture, the facility, no rats or wolves in the building, a palpable sense inside the building of improvement happening. Progress on many fronts.

So....what I'm alluding to for your Browns is your owner is terrible, he made the errors of a senile Al Davis, constantly firing coaches and whole front offices the first few years of his ownership. So thruout the last 4 years, your Browns have NOT been progressing due to your owner. But IF, IF, he can hold onto this current front office and coaching staff for another 2-3 years, THEN you will start seeing real progress, especially if the word from football people and journalists and insiders is that INSIDE the Browns HQ there is a genuine sense of accord and confidence, not divisiveness. This year is only the 2nd year of the current FO and coaching staff. So like my Raiders, it took another 2 years before a leap was made to a 13-3 type team. As long as Haslam keeps things stable, then you will see this kind of on-field progress like my Raiders had ---- 2016 1-16, 2017 3-13, 2018 6-10, THEN year 4, 2019 13-3.
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Can't compare the two franchises at all.
 
Apologies if you feel that way....not my intent. Just tired of hearing the same PFF "rankings" tossed around to validate this FO.

The only ranking that matters---is where you are ranked in comparison to your fellow competitors in terms of Wins and Loses.

How does 1-18 and 0-3 this season rank?

I mean at what point is enough, enough?
 
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