Opinion Climate change

[Del165198]

Toyota seem to be still backing hydrogen.

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What happens if a hydrogen fuel car explodes? Big boom?

I assume they've got it sorted so it can't happen, but you wonder

Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Vehicles: Everything You Need to Know

They’re related to electric cars, but have pros and cons that make them very different.

www.caranddriver.com

Edit: good article here. They still sound kinda shitty, tbh. Think Toyota has backed the wrong horse but it's too stubborn to switch lanes. They're hugely successful, but can't keep barking up the wrong tree forever you'd think, esp since they were at the front with the Prius

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I said somewhere else recently but we Australias really took for granted the standard motors in our standard cars. The old Falcon/Magna/Commodore 6 cylinders had pretty good power and torque figures for normal mum take the kids to school cars.

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In the 80s some of them still had 3 speed gearboxes.
Now with multi ratio or CVT torque is not as important.

The Barra is almost bombproof, can handle serious abuse even at high boost, Im a mechanic and Ive never seen more odometers with 500,000+ km than the AU i6 though, some old boy came in once, drained oil, only 1 & half litre, plus few hundred ml in filter came out, did a leak down comp test, rings still tight as a you know what

They are the only car i know of had an overheat function that would save your engine. So long as you weren't low on oil it would go into a special limp home mode, and turn off the injectors every second time they normally fired . ( effectively making it an oil and air cooled 8 stroke ).
My Territory turbo did it once, got me to where i had to go rather than trying to fix it on the side of the road. Ford claimed you could drive in that condition for a limitless amount of time without doing damage.

Of course nowdays kids just go, ....Daaaaad i need a new car....cos mine had a light come on ...i was going to ask the mechanic to look at it next time i went there but now it stopped going.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Thanks for that. The SA Government is putting a lot of effort into green hydrogen export projects for the Whyalla region including constructing a green hydrogen electricity power plant. Malinauskas signed an MOU with several Japanese companies when he was over there last month.

Admit I was highly sceptical of the proposal when he got elected but that was because I knew F-All about it.

Malinauskas signs Japanese companies to green hydrogen

www.aumanufacturing.com.au

I'm not sure it'll be a win/lose out of Hydrogen or battery storage.

At the moment cost is the real issue for Hydrogen , sure they can make it cheaper, but its currently ten times the cost of petrol.
Australia is pretty big, and a winner for Hydrogen, which still has less range than petrol/diesel ( due to being gaseous ), is that it can be quickly refuelled.
There are still a lot of issues for electric vehicles for those needing to travel long distances.

You can potentially have a Jet Aircraft fuelled by Hydrogen.
I'd suggest that Elon won't see his batteries flying commercially in his lifetime.

Battery power is fine to cart that 2 tonne vehicle to the school and work, then back home later.

 

[Del165198]

I'm not sure it'll be a win/lose out of Hydrogen or battery storage.

At the moment cost is the real issue for Hydrogen , sure they can make it cheaper, but its currently ten times the cost of petrol.
Australia is pretty big, and a winner for Hydrogen, which still has less range than petrol/diesel ( due to being gaseous ), is that it can be quickly refuelled.
There are still a lot of issues for electric vehicles for those needing to travel long distances.

You can potentially have a Jet Aircraft fuelled by Hydrogen.
I'd suggest that Elon won't see his batteries flying commercially in his lifetime.

Battery power is fine to cart that 2 tonne vehicle to the school and work, then back home later.

There are EVs with 500km range already, it's certainly an option for many not just a city commuter.

If you live in the sticks and tow everywhere or are doing a lap towing a 3 tonne caravan then yeah, EVs aren't for you right now.

The hydrogen problem is there is no distribution network. They are really battling with in California and no one is buying the vehicles.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

There are EVs with 500km range already, it's certainly an option for many not just a city commuter.

If you live in the sticks and tow everywhere or are doing a lap towing a 3 tonne caravan then yeah, EVs aren't for you right now.

The hydrogen problem is there is no distribution network. They are really battling with in California and no one is buying the vehicles.

500Km is not necessarily a long way in Australia.
And yes, Towing is an issue.

The Hydrogen in California is $13 per Kg, and for mental comparison purposes , you get around the same energy from a litre of petrol.
Distribution is a supply/demand issue. At $13/Kg there is no demand.

When people talk about the cost of renewables , its not a simple answer.

If you build a massive surplus of Solar, you won't be able to give it away when the sunlight is plentiful.
If there is no other power available , and there is an electricity shortage, it will be very expensive.

So a solution is to build that surplus, so much that you are generating solar electricity even on crappy days.
Then on a good solar/wind day, when electricity is cheap as hell , you use it to produce hydrogen/ desalinate seawater / pump hydro anything else that needs doing but not at a specific time.
Hydrogen can be viewed as an energy storage method.

 

[Del165198]

500Km is not necessarily a long way in Australia.
And yes, Towing is an issue.

The Hydrogen in California is $13 per Kg, and for mental comparison purposes , you get around the same energy from a litre of petrol.
Distribution is a supply/demand issue. At $13/Kg there is no demand.

When people talk about the cost of renewables , its not a simple answer.

If you build a massive surplus of Solar, you won't be able to give it away when the sunlight is plentiful.
If there is no other power available , and there is an electricity shortage, it will be very expensive.

So a solution is to build that surplus, so much that you are generating solar electricity even on crappy days.
Then on a good solar/wind day, when electricity is cheap as hell , you use it to produce hydrogen/ desalinate seawater / pump hydro anything else that needs doing but not at a specific time.
Hydrogen can be viewed as an energy storage method.

i know CO2 is produced in the process of generating hydrogen, but no idea how much. i wonder if they've figured out a way to minimise that or whether it's a relatively negligible amount

 

[SaintsSeptember]

i know CO2 is produced in the process of generating hydrogen, but no idea how much. i wonder if they've figured out a way to minimise that or whether it's a relatively negligible amount

The common method is to filter it out of natural gas,
You can use electrolysis to produce oxygen and water, which is Carbon free, but takes more energy than you will eventually produce.

 

[Sleezy]

The common method is to filter it out of natural gas,
You can use electrolysis to produce oxygen and water, which is Carbon free, but takes more energy than you will eventually produce.

The advantage of hydrogen is that it can be used for heat as well as electricity, so is a green (depending on how it's generated) substitute for fossil fuels that currently drive heavy industry.

So while it might be worth less than the electricity used to generate it, it will do things the electricity can't. It's a bit more versatile. But it is also a long way off.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The advantage of hydrogen is that it can be used for heat as well as electricity, so is a green (depending on how it's generated) substitute for fossil fuels that currently drive heavy industry.

So while it might be worth less than the electricity used to generate it, it will do things the electricity can't. It's a bit more versatile. But it is also a long way off.

Renewable energy based grids only work if you have a huge amount of surplus capacity.
( Not sure how that works economically for the generating companies though ).
That means on a cloudy day with a bit of breeze you get ample wind/sun power.
It also means that on a sunny day with lots of wind, you have more electricity than you know what to do with.

If we come to that level i think Hydrogen will be very viable.
Like i said, i can't think of any other Carbon free way to fly a plane.

 

[dirty2]

Hydrogen is the common element in the galaxy so would be handy if we could work out a clean way to use it for every day use.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Hydrogen is the common element in the galaxy so would be handy if we could work out a clean way to use it for every day use.

Just get it really hot , (Nuclear ) that's all the sun is.

We can use it for every day use. Mix it with oxygen ( light it )

But common doesn't mean floating around.
H20 needs energy to separate the Hydrogen.
Then there are the evil Hydrocarbons.

Common, doesn't help you if its floating through space somewhere.

So the big issue is "cheap hydrogen".

 

[Lawnchair Larry]

Seems we arent short on for potential sites.
Less talk more action required.
I must say I do find some sites in central Australia a bit strange though.

"The Australian National University (ANU) has completed an audit of 22,000 potential sites across Australia for pumped hydro energy storage, which can be used to support a secure and cheap national electricity grid with 100 per cent renewable energy."

ANU finds 22,000 potential pumped hydro sites in Australia

The Australian National University (ANU) has completed an audit of 22,000 potential sites across Australia for pumped hydro energy storage, which can be used to support a secure and cheap national electricity grid with 100 per cent renewable energy. The zero-emissions grid would mainly rely on...

www.anu.edu.au

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Shall we continue to ignore that the emissions of international shipping are more than the emissions of Australia?

Shall we continue to ignore that electricity air travel is not feasible except in the form of Dirigible type airships?

Will the planet remain as small as it is now?

 

[Del165198]

Shall we continue to ignore that the emissions of international shipping are more than the emissions of Australia?

Shall we continue to ignore that electricity air travel is not feasible except in the form of Dirigible type airships?

Will the planet remain as small as it is now?

Maybe people would value the experience of travel more if it wasn't so damn cheap and convenient. Jetting off to Bali for a few days for a piss up versus say spending a month in Vietnam.

Expanding our horizons can be beneficial as people, but is hopping all over the globe worth it? Should it truly be a once in a lifetime type experience?

The global shipping is another tricky question. We all enjoy our cheap, disposable crap. Is it possible to return to a world with more locally manufactured goods + things built to last? Of course it's possible, but there will be trade offs. Quality of life/convenience potentially goes down as we can't "consume" as much. People will need to learn how to repair and DIY things. We won't always be able to afford the latest and greatest and update to a bigger tv every 3-4 years.

It's a very good question, and one that requires real sacrifice. Personally I'm happy enough to do it, but I doubt it would be a popular decision across the electorate.

 

[edgie]

At the risk of sounding like a boring Hinkley tier simpleton, some people do too much recreational overseas travel.

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[SaintsSeptember]

Maybe people would value the experience of travel more if it wasn't so damn cheap and convenient. Jetting off to Bali for a few days for a piss up versus say spending a month in Vietnam.

Expanding our horizons can be beneficial as people, but is hopping all over the globe worth it? Should it truly be a once in a lifetime type experience?

The global shipping is another tricky question. We all enjoy our cheap, disposable crap. Is it possible to return to a world with more locally manufactured goods + things built to last? Of course it's possible, but there will be trade offs. Quality of life/convenience potentially goes down as we can't "consume" as much. People will need to learn how to repair and DIY things. We won't always be able to afford the latest and greatest and update to a bigger tv every 3-4 years.

It's a very good question, and one that requires real sacrifice. Personally I'm happy enough to do it, but I doubt it would be a popular decision across the electorate.

If we wanted to look at improvement rather than elimination, shipping has tonnes of potential.
They really are big metal floats, with the cheapest ( to produce ) engines.
Design them for long life and efficiency and you can make massive carbon improvements.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

At the risk of sounding like a boring Hinkley tier simpleton, some people do too much recreational overseas travel.

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Yeah but that doesn't matter , if you are saving up for a Tesla.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Seems we arent short on for potential sites.
Less talk more action required.
I must say I do find some sites in central Australia a bit strange though.

"The Australian National University (ANU) has completed an audit of 22,000 potential sites across Australia for pumped hydro energy storage, which can be used to support a secure and cheap national electricity grid with 100 per cent renewable energy."

ANU finds 22,000 potential pumped hydro sites in Australia

The Australian National University (ANU) has completed an audit of 22,000 potential sites across Australia for pumped hydro energy storage, which can be used to support a secure and cheap national electricity grid with 100 per cent renewable energy. The zero-emissions grid would mainly rely on...

www.anu.edu.au

View attachment 1555214

Its pretty obvious ,that no matter what storage system is used, Pumped Hydro, Hydrogen generation, battery, etc we need a huge oversupply of renewable wind /solar electricity.
I can't see how it will be built under a privatized model.

 

[Lawnchair Larry]

AGL begins process of powering up Torrens Island battery, biggest in South Australia

AGL brings its 250MW/250MWh Torrens Island battery one step closer to "full functionality" as a “virtual synchronous machine.”

reneweconomy.com.au

 

[SaintsSeptember]

AGL begins process of powering up Torrens Island battery, biggest in South Australia

AGL brings its 250MW/250MWh Torrens Island battery one step closer to "full functionality" as a “virtual synchronous machine.”

reneweconomy.com.au

View attachment 1555740

Here's a gas turbine on the back of a semi.

That Battery will match its output for 8 hours.

The Current | GE Vernova News

GE Vernova's The Current is an information hub for all energy innovation news and stories, including topics related to decarbonization and electrification news.

www.ge.com

 

[NoddyHolder]

step 1 towards development of a Chrono-synchlastic Infundibulum. Then all our problems will be solved

 

[Lawnchair Larry]

Here's a gas turbine on the back of a semi.

That Battery will match its output for 8 hours.

The Current | GE Vernova News

GE Vernova's The Current is an information hub for all energy innovation news and stories, including topics related to decarbonization and electrification news.

www.ge.com

Perfect backup as we scale up then!

 

[Lawnchair Larry]

EV range anxiety and purchase price still remain as key obstacles in upgrading.
The Conversation gives a good summary of this stuff, and also looks at new models imminent in Australia.
I've put some of the table data in graphical form because it's easier to get an overall picture.
The good news is the vast improvement in range anxiety at <$50k.
I've never heard of the Chinese company BYD before, but they are about to smash this market with the BYD Seal(Atto 4).
It's not a bad looker either.
Note I've only assessed the cheapest model costings graphically.

New electric cars for under $45,000? They're finally coming to Australia – but the battle isn't over Major new policies are still needed to accelerate the road transport transition. There’s good news, however: Australian motorists have been promised more choice soon. theconversation.com

 

[SaintsSeptember]

EV range anxiety and purchase price still remain as key obstacles in upgrading.
The Conversation gives a good summary of this stuff, and also looks at new models imminent in Australia.
I've put some of the table data in graphical form because it's easier to get an overall picture.
The good news is the vast improvement in range anxiety at <$50k.
I've never heard of the Chinese company BYD before, but they are about to smash this market with the BYD Seal(Atto 4).
It's not a bad looker either.
Note I've only assessed the cheapest model costings graphically.

New electric cars for under $45,000? They're finally coming to Australia – but the battle isn't over Major new policies are still needed to accelerate the road transport transition. There’s good news, however: Australian motorists have been promised more choice soon. theconversation.com

View attachment 1557947
View attachment 1557948

Price is still an issue. A Tesla 3 vs a Mazda 3 comes out pretty even apart from the electrics.
Tesla at double the price.

 

[OneGreatClub]