Event Club Q&A - 17th June

[The Boar]

It’s already a couple of weeks old. Heads are already ready to roll in coming days/weeks. Unfortunately they’re not the right ones.

Tell me we'll sweep out some assistant coaches please??

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[gringo2011]

Finnis also saw us move to NZ which failed. China out of his control somewhat was a fail. Special interest games to bring in a new audience like Pride and others have failed. Seen the crowds drop to nearly zero for the first time in my life. I'm progressive but we had more indigenous support staff than we had indigenous players and we can't even get a decent recruiter when our president runs a HR firm. My son joined the Next Generation academy when it started and it was no better than his club training. The communication was terrible and had to ring up to find out if he'd made the cut. They spent more time telling us about how good it was going to be rather than actually doing anything.

Even when we were s**t in the past we had crowds. He moved us back to Morrabin but that was a no brainer. Seaford was one of the great self harm exercises in football history. The game day experience is the worst in football and some of the s**t they implemented was just embarrassing and put people off like canned crowd noise and chants and dumb s**t like the Bayside Biker. Even North Melbourne stood out when you went to their games. They had their own huge banners, decent music up loud, decent crowd participation etc it wasn't because we couldn't afford it.

We just do everything a bit shitter than other clubs. From drafting to game day we have been asleep at the wheel, it has to be partially Finnis

 

[gringo2011]

Finnis - yes but needs a footy operator who sits next to him as an equal, and if that's not doable then no.
Lethlean - I know many have doubts but I think he's done ok since arriving, some will have issues with jobs for mates, that only an issue for me if mates are sh*t at their jobs. Rath, O'Shaughnessy have been quality hirings.

Ratten - after 18months I think the jury is still out Last year was positive but we still had the same lapses as we've had this year, which is sad

Have O'Shaughnessy and Rath been any good? They look busy with clip boards and lap tops but I haven't seen anything that suggests they are excelling. We thought the Hawks last lot of recycled administration was elite in Pelican and he's cost us. So far our obsession with being the Hawks from 7 years ago has netted very little benefit.

 

[The Boar]

Before we write off Ratten, give him another year and a clean bill of Assistants. Put him on notice and watch him work, we'll know either way at that point. Grab the best assistants available with limited input from Finnis or Lethlean ideally.

Finnis can go, as can Lethlean IF we have a better replacement lined up.

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[BrutThough]

Isn't that what they effectively said?

Yes it was.

 

[Saints43]

Tell me we'll sweep out some assistant coaches please??

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He'll tell you nothing.
If he could he'd name who's leaving.
He doesn't know.
It's in the newspapers that we're doing a review. A review will always see roles spilled. That's what he knows. It's what everyone knows.

 

[George]

Are you going to elaborate?

Sure.

Finnis - Don't know how anyone can just gloss over the move back to Moorabbin - it's something that at the time of the move to Seaford we never thought would happen again. It has been one of the best things this club has ever done and will cement our club with some stability for generations. To use the fact we are still in debt without considering the move back to Moorabbin is just disingenuous. We made the decision to future proof our club instead of pay off debt. And it's only an issue if we can't facilitate the debt anyway. If I had to choose between being in debt or moving back to a world class facility I'd pick the world class facility every day of the week. Matt has also overseen a membership growth in record numbers, when he took over our membership was hovering at around 35,000. We are now at 55,000+, and have broken our club membership record in the last 4 seasons consecutively. Sponsorship has been a big win, we have never filled our sponsor slots like we have the last few years. We have great backing from many organisations. Our club has never been as inclusive as it is right now either. We have supported all types of people and allowed club access to members which is something we rarely ever have done. Matt has also been fantastic in his support of past players and made not only them but all St.Kilda people feel welcome again. He has played a huge part in turning this club around, to dismiss any of the good he has done because of our issues on-field is pretty stupid and I will get to that later.

Lethlean - Has only been in the job 3 full seasons and made finals in that time so I don't know why he is being questioned on his ability to lead the football department. Has appointed great people to help improve the program like Roughead and Rath who is one of the best in the business. Both come from winning programs. He stuffed the Hannebery deal but aside from that I can't really see anything else he has done wrong. Think it is unfair to lump him in this. Bringing in Hunter & McKernan was never to have them play every week, it was purely depth and unfortunately injury has meant they have had to play more than they would've normally. Our 22 is very good and Lethers has helped build that, beyond that needs work but he hasn't shown that he can't do the job so I will back him in.

Ratten - Our biggest issue. I've talked about him at length so not getting into it again, but the players inconsistencies and lack of effort falls mostly on his inability to coach that into them. The other part of that is the players and they have to take some responsibility but Ratten is the head coach and ultimately that responsibility is his. Not to mention he is incredibly poor defensively and our lack of leadership is an issue that he has needed to address but hasn't done enough.

 

[Mat Mann]

Have O'Shaughnessy and Rath been any good? They look busy with clip boards and lap tops but I haven't seen anything that suggests they are excelling. We thought the Hawks last lot of recycled administration was elite in Pelican and he's cost us. So far our obsession with being the Hawks from 7 years ago has netted very little benefit.

are they doing a bad job?
I mean Raths been here since Nov 2019 and had of the most unique and challenging seasons ever and Darren is very respected in his field, but ultimately he doesn't make decisions, just gives information.

 

[stavro#4]

Sure.

Finnis - Don't know how anyone can just gloss over the move back to Moorabbin - it's something that at the time of the move to Seaford we never thought would happen again. It has been one of the best things this club has ever done and will cement our club with some stability for generations. To use the fact we are still in debt without considering the move back to Moorabbin is just disingenuous. We made the decision to future proof our club instead of pay off debt. And it's only an issue if we can't facilitate the debt anyway. If I had to choose between being in debt or moving back to a world class facility I'd pick the world class facility every day of the week. Matt has also overseen a membership growth in record numbers, when he took over our membership was hovering at around 35,000. We are now at 55,000+, and have broken our club membership record in the last 4 seasons consecutively. Sponsorship has been a big win, we have never filled our sponsor slots like we have the last few years. We have great backing from many organisations. Our club has never been as inclusive as it is right now either. We have supported all types of people and allowed club access to members which is something we rarely ever have done. Matt has also been fantastic in his support of past players and made not only them but all St.Kilda people feel welcome again. He has played a huge part in turning this club around, to dismiss any of the good he has done because of our issues on-field is pretty stupid and I will get to that later.

Lethlean - Has only been in the job 3 full seasons and made finals in that time so I don't know why he is being questioned on his ability to lead the football department. Has appointed great people to help improve the program like Roughead and Rath who is one of the best in the business. Both come from winning programs. He stuffed the Hannebery deal but aside from that I can't really see anything else he has done wrong. Think it is unfair to lump him in this. Bringing in Hunter & McKernan was never to have them play every week, it was purely depth and unfortunately injury has meant they have had to play more than they would've normally. Our 22 is very good and Lethers has helped build that, beyond that needs work but he hasn't shown that he can't do the job so I will back him in.

Ratten - Our biggest issue. I've talked about him at length so not getting into it again, but the players inconsistencies and lack of effort falls mostly on his inability to coach that into them. The other part of that is the players and they have to take some responsibility but Ratten is the head coach and ultimately that responsibility is his. Not to mention he is incredibly poor defensively and our lack of leadership is an issue that he has needed to address but hasn't done enough.

Whilst finnis doesn’t directly control what happens on the field. He is still the CEO and thus ultimately the performances impact the quality of job he has done.

I’ve already said Finnis has done well with Moorabbin but I won’t give him all the credit as there was a lot of very very good stkilda people who made it happen. Also even with his increase in membership he hasn’t managed the debt situation. The fact we are still reliant on the AFL,means that if Finnis was to walk away this year is ultimately a failure.

You can be in debt and self sustaining. But we aren’t. Yes the sponsorship has grown, but you also can’t be thrilled that the entire league has grown and we still sit towards the bottom of the sponsorship ladder.

As a measure/comparison . North and the Dogs have both redeveloped their spiritual homes aswell. North are debt free- which from where they were is outstanding.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Firtius Quo Rdelius

 

[George]

Whilst finnis doesn’t directly control what happens on the field. He is still the CEO and thus ultimately the performances impact the quality of job he has done.

I’ve already said Finnis has done well with Moorabbin but I won’t give him all the credit as there was a lot of very very good stkilda people who made it happen. Also even with his increase in membership he hasn’t managed the debt situation. The fact we are still reliant on the AFL,means that if Finnis was to walk away this year is ultimately a failure.

You can be in debt and self sustaining. But we aren’t. Yes the sponsorship has grown, but you also can’t be thrilled that the entire league has grown and we still sit towards the bottom of the sponsorship ladder.

As a measure/comparison . North and the Dogs have both redeveloped their spiritual homes aswell. North are debt free- which from where they were is outstanding.

If you want to blame Finnis for the football department failings then why don't you blame the board that oversee Finnis. It's silly. Anything football related is Lethers problem and Lethers has done a good job so far. I wonder who appointed him.

Regardless of who helped with Moorabbin it was Finnis who was in charge at the club when that happened so give credit where it's due. A lot of people help make decisions at the club, that doesn't take away from the people actually at the club who played a large part in it. Moving back to Moorabbin and to a world class facility is Finnis' legacy. Not many of our past CEO's have a legacy quite like it.

I still don't understand why the debt is an issue if you stop wilfully ignoring other factors that contribute to it like the move back to Moorabbin & the s**t Marvel deal. And lets be clear we would've eaten away at that debt the last two seasons if we weren't impacted by COVID. You just glossed over membership & sponsorship again. I know you obviously want him gone but why can't you actually acknowledge the work he has done? 150 years of this club and in the last 4 seasons we've broken membership records. That is incredible. My point on sponsorship is it has never been better. I don't care about other clubs. I want us to keep improving and he has done that.

Arden St is absolutely nothing compared to RSEA haha. And the Dogs fortunes I would say have come largely from winning a premiership recently, similar to how Richmond went from 35,000 members in 2009 to over 100,000 after they won their flag in 2017.

You only need to look at how our success last year impacted the club. Our membership grew by 7000 and we would've made profit if not for COVID/lack of attendance money. Finnis has appointed great people to bolster the football department and we saw how that worked by making finals last year. What we need to do now is move on some assistants that have been there for far too long - something we would've done already if they weren't in contract in previous seasons. Luckily now they are OOC so it makes it alot easier to move on many of them and improve the football department once more.

 

[g_TRAIN]

They mentioned Ben Robbins a lot. I still see our mental state as a real worry. We looked like we rolled over against Adelaide. As soon as they got a run on the Saints looked like they knew the inevitable was coming rather than digging deeper. They seem mentally resigned to failure at the moment. I started to think DMac had become a gun player after his few good games, but it was more that he stood out above nearly every other player for his application and effort. He set the tempo for the whole side against WCE and the others seemed to eventually get on board with him.

There is something wrong with both our motivation and our resilience. If your psyches can't get that going the they should surely be looked at too. This side definitely have some unfortunate characteristics, they seem like they fold easily, they pick and choose when to bring effort, they look like some games are so un-motivating they don't show up at all etc. Nearly all psych stuff.

I knew what was coming in the Adelaide game as soon as we got a semi comfy lead going into the last quarter

Sounds strange but I think if we entered the last quarter 15 points down instead of up we would have probably played much much better.

I was actually hopeful at one stage we gave up the lead earlier in the quarter and the guys might start attacking the game again

 

[Saints43]

Yes but that doesn’t take away that it’s taken 7 years of his leadership to get here.

Compare that to the Dogs and North and their leadership, it makes us look like a bunch of kindergarten kids.

The fact is also that in this time, the AFL has done a tremendous amount of work in propping us up, providing staff and giving us prime time opportunities only for us to sh*t the bed and role in it. Now they are effectively encouraging us to repay the debt because we can’t do it on our own.

Footscray have gotten there, in part, by poaching Luke Beveidge (as director of football and coach in waiting) and Ameet Bains from St Kilda. Because we didn't have the money, facilities to retain them.
Footscray wee given $8M of taxpayers money in 2004 (think about how much money that was then!). Are we giving Peter Gordon credit for having the foresight to form the club in a seat the federal government went after?
Look at the staff turnaround at St Kilda in the past few seasons as Finnis has improved our viability.
It's taken seven years because he had to turn around the poorest decision ever made in business: Seaford.
And inherited a club mismanaged by the worst administrators to have worked in the game: Fraser and Nettlefold.

And your other example, North, are slowly committing suicide.

 

[George]

There is something wrong with both our motivation and our resilience. If your psyches can't get that going the they should surely be looked at too. This side definitely have some unfortunate characteristics, they seem like they fold easily, they pick and choose when to bring effort, they look like some games are so un-motivating they don't show up at all etc. Nearly all psych stuff.

Maybe blame the players then. Robbins holds a PhD in Clinical Psychology with his doctorate investigating the psychological wellbeing of professional athletes.

 

[Bill Mohr]

Hi Folks new on here. Have heard a bit of the saints presentation. One thing i am hearing is that lethlean looked like he didnt want to be there. I have never had time for him, gets praise from very few people and thats based on his appointment to the position based on a friendship with Gill so he never earned the job despite some people quoting his very good amateur career (whatever that is or means), his recruitment of hannebery and then followed by that of hill and a few other players that are not quite good enough now at the top level. He never got the side into the finals, how has that statement been backed up? To say the saints are very good with a full team in is not quite correct. Every side has injuries. I believe nothing will happen in this review, because those making the mistakes are at the top and they wont budge. If the head coach is going to cop the blame, why didnt the gurus who appointed him pick up on his supposed faults in defence and leadership? This is a damning indictment on Finnis and Lethlean. You pick the wrong coach , then you are accountable same as hiring any person for a job. I see a fair bit of praise for a side that is in turmoil and sitting 14th with no good young guys coming through and having to have a half baked mid season review run by some of the people who are responsible for the mess. The only saviour is that upsets keep happening in other games which keeps us within reach of the 8 but thats a false dawn.

 

[Mat Mann]

Sure.

Finnis - Don't know how anyone can just gloss over the move back to Moorabbin - it's something that at the time of the move to Seaford we never thought would happen again. It has been one of the best things this club has ever done and will cement our club with some stability for generations. To use the fact we are still in debt without considering the move back to Moorabbin is just disingenuous. We made the decision to future proof our club instead of pay off debt. And it's only an issue if we can't facilitate the debt anyway. If I had to choose between being in debt or moving back to a world class facility I'd pick the world class facility every day of the week. Matt has also overseen a membership growth in record numbers, when he took over our membership was hovering at around 35,000. We are now at 55,000+, and have broken our club membership record in the last 4 seasons consecutively. Sponsorship has been a big win, we have never filled our sponsor slots like we have the last few years. We have great backing from many organisations. Our club has never been as inclusive as it is right now either. We have supported all types of people and allowed club access to members which is something we rarely ever have done. Matt has also been fantastic in his support of past players and made not only them but all St.Kilda people feel welcome again. He has played a huge part in turning this club around, to dismiss any of the good he has done because of our issues on-field is pretty stupid and I will get to that later.

He's done plenty right, no doubt. But 1 final in 7 years, the poor football dept prior to Lethlean, and atrocious drafting also have to weigh against him, we are after all a football club. You shouldn't last long if you don't do your core business well and we haven't.

But rather than blame him, just ask, is he now the right person to lead us forwards.

 

[gringo2011]

Before we write off Ratten, give him another year and a clean bill of Assistants. Put him on notice and watch him work, we'll know either way at that point. Grab the best assistants available with limited input from Finnis or Lethlean ideally.

Finnis can go, as can Lethlean IF we have a better replacement lined up.

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I think we will regardless. His good 2020 gives him breathing space but he'd be on notice and would want to start 2022 with a bit of momentum.

 

[George]

He's done plenty right, no doubt. But 1 final in 7 years, the poor football dept prior to Lethlean, and atrocious drafting also have to weigh against him, we are after all a football club. You shouldn't last long if you don't do your core business well and we haven't.

But rather than blame him, just ask, is he now the right person to lead us forwards.

Yes he is. The issues you bring up are football department related. Finnis is not part of the football department. All decisions are ratified by the board.

 

[gringo2011]

are they doing a bad job?
I mean Raths been here since Nov 2019 and had of the most unique and challenging seasons ever and Darren is very respected in his field, but ultimately he doesn't make decisions, just gives information.

No idea, I'm asking the question. We are assuming that they are adding something. I don't know if we can assume that they were at good clubs so they are instantly great for us.

 

[Bill Mohr]

Before we write off Ratten, give him another year and a clean bill of Assistants. Put him on notice and watch him work, we'll know either way at that point. Grab the best assistants available with limited input from Finnis or Lethlean ideally.

Finnis can go, as can Lethlean IF we have a better replacement lined up.

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I would agree with most of that. Ratten does need someone who has a defensive mindset to sit alongside him and improve that side of his coaching game. All i see on the screen are non producers with clipboards and other coaches who do not seem to have made any real improvement in the side. One more year for Ratten, we should get some players back for next year and that will take away the injury excuses.

 

[gringo2011]

Maybe blame the players then. Robbins holds a PhD in Clinical Psychology with his doctorate investigating the psychological wellbeing of professional athletes.

So we have a whole team that is mentally weak? These guys that are employed to help guide them shouldn't be questioned? I assume the answer to that is run a broom through the playing group then and sack the recruiting and list management staff? I hope they review every one. I have friends that have PhDs that are ******* incompetent and I wouldn't pay them to put up a tent. Getting a doctorate is more about being a mental endurance athlete than a genius.

 

[g_TRAIN]

Ratten can have as attacking a brand of football as he likes PROVIDED it works. All the good teams are attacking teams.

The biggest issue has been teams getting a run on against us and we are unable to arrest momentum, I'm not sure that's because we are too attacking. If anything it seems to happen when the players go into their shells and we get pinned into our D50. That seems to be made worse by the fact we can't kick straight and are unable to get that goal that shifts momentum

 

[George]

So we have a whole team that is mentally weak? These guys that are employed to help guide them shouldn't be questioned? I assume the answer to that is run a broom through the playing group then and sack the recruiting and list management staff? I hope they review every one. I have friends that have PhDs that are ******* incompetent and I wouldn't pay them to put up a tent. Getting a doctorate is more about being a mental endurance athlete than a genius.

Too much irrationally in one post for me to bother responding properly. Didn't say any of those things, was simply suggesting put more of the blame on the players. This world is ending rhetoric is so boring.

 

[gringo2011]

Too much irrationally in one post for me to bother responding properly. Didn't say any of those things, was simply suggesting put more of the blame on the players. This world is ending rhetoric is so boring.

Is that a reportable personal attack? I'm discussing the subject in a civil way.

 

[stavro#4]

Yes he is. The issues you bring up are football department related. Finnis is not part of the football department. All decisions are ratified by the board.

He is the CEO. Prior to Lethers change in job title - they all fell under his umbrella.

You can’t just sit there and say he had no bearing on it.

As per your previous post, I also didn’t say Arden street was any better worse or indifferent to Moorabbins redevelopment. But they and the dogs are comparable to us unfortunately and whilst Moorabbin is better (commenting now) the same redevelopment did occur with less resources and they have gotten themselves financially stable. Which we aren’t. Both those clubs are also Marvel members and had a poor deal too.

I might think Finnis has done a poor job - but I also gave him credit for his part in Moorabbin, membership and sponsorship. However I also am not naive to absolve him of the Football department of which he was ENTIRELY responsible before Lethers promotion. Which by the way, came about from the board under the new president and not the old regime.

So clearly they identified an issue here too.

So you are right that Finnis my be better then his predecessors, but he hasn’t gotten this club performing to the level of those clubs around us. Whether that’s financially like the Roos or both on and off field like the dogs.