News Club to launch external review of football department!

[NewDarkNavyBlues]

Did I say you were?

I think that MLG's brief - by his own metrics - was to get us out of the colossal clusterfu** that was 2013-2015; where we went from having a team that had made finals but were suffering from a lack of incoming talent, and where we were not building from a financial or a membership perspective. We were a shamozzle on and off the field.

He picked 3 people to pull us out; Trigg, Bolton and SOS.

Now, you can critique the overall picture - SOS having too much power initially leading to him butting heads with too many people; Trigg's unwillingness to move to Melbourne; Bolton's needing Craig and not replacing him after he left - but given what he started with, one can only really conclude that his presidency has given us the building blocks with which to push us further than we have been in the new millennium.

Do we have issues now, and have we fallen short of where would like to be by this point? Absolutely. But I take issue with the notion that we could've absolutely nailed everything from 2015 on.

You're always going to make mistakes, and we had so many problem.


... I'm struggling to see the issue.

Let's make this as simple as possible: how long were you willing to allow for Teague or Bolton to change a lightbulb? At what point do you start disputing individual steps on the way if the task isn't completed?


Agreed.

I don't think that Teague was an above average coach. An above average coach doesn't lose his best player and captain. An above average coach doesn't ignore youth, and only play them after a review into their coaching is called. An above average coach doesn't concede clearance after clearance or goal after goal consecutively. An above average coach doesn't coach a side that refuses to tackle.

The problem with yours and others arguments to this effect is that it relies on a pattern of behaviour; that we dismiss coaches for other issues. I do not think that David Teague fits that pattern, and I'd like to see someone justify it in the light of the fact that Teague has (essentially) been confirmed to have interfered in injury and rehab, has definitively played favorites and has refused for substantial amounts of time time to play younger players through the midfield or in the ones, and has genuinely sought to light the joint on fire upon leaving.

Yes. There was nothing remotely 'above average' about Teague. The decision had to be made.

Sayers is hopefully getting us back to procuring the best available in all areas. We are Carlton $#k the rest type attitude served as well for a very long time.

 

[Gethelred]

Sayers has messed this up big time and there’s worse to come.
Had kept Liddle and Lloyd on to implement the review despite them being on the plank itself.
Seeks replacements for Liddle and Lloyd and the prospective alternatives are leaked publicly.
Appointed Williams as Football Director, despite him having no credentials to undertake the role.
Sacked Teague without a plan to run a replacement process.
Invented a process which no coaches or potential panel members want to be part of.
Didn’t consult fellow directors before approaching prospective coaches.
Wanted Clarkson. Failed.
Mates with Buckley. Failed.
Wants Lyon. Being undermined left, right and centre from within.

Do me a favour, and could you repost this post with the bits that are fact bolded, please? Because there's rather a bit of speculation involved in each of these.

 

[NavyBlueHeaven]

Sayers has messed this up big time and there’s worse to come.
Had kept Liddle and Lloyd on to implement the review despite them being on the plank itself.
Seeks replacements for Liddle and Lloyd and the prospective alternatives are leaked publicly.
Appointed Williams as Football Director, despite him having no credentials to undertake the role.
Sacked Teague without a plan to run a replacement process.
Invented a process which no coaches or potential panel members want to be part of.
Didn’t consult fellow directors before approaching prospective coaches.
Wanted Clarkson. Failed.
Mates with Buckley. Failed.
Wants Lyon. Being undermined left, right and centre from within.

What's worse to come?
I think we have to see what happens over next month. If he brings in Lyon and Cook and a strong head of footy to replace Lloyd I would have thought this is a good start. Lets see what happens

 

[TheReal99prelim]

Sayers has messed this up big time and there’s worse to come.
Had kept Liddle and Lloyd on to implement the review despite them being on the plank itself.
Seeks replacements for Liddle and Lloyd and the prospective alternatives are leaked publicly.
Appointed Williams as Football Director, despite him having no credentials to undertake the role.
Sacked Teague without a plan to run a replacement process.
Invented a process which no coaches or potential panel members want to be part of.
Didn’t consult fellow directors before approaching prospective coaches.
Wanted Clarkson. Failed.
Mates with Buckley. Failed.
Wants Lyon. Being undermined left, right and centre from within.

Transformational change is always messy...it's meant to be

 

[bigblueboy]

Do me a favour, and could you repost this post with the bits that are fact bolded, please? Because there's rather a bit of speculation involved in each of these.

Sayers has messed this up big time and there’s worse to come.
Had kept Liddle and Lloyd on to implement the review despite them being on the plank itself.
Seeks replacements for Liddle and Lloyd and the prospective alternatives are leaked publicly.
Appointed Williams as Football Director, despite him having no credentials to undertake the role.
Sacked Teague without a plan to run a replacement process.
Invented a process which no coaches or potential panel members want to be part of.
Didn’t consult fellow directors before approaching prospective coaches.
Wanted Clarkson. Failed.
Mates with Buckley. Failed.
Wants Lyon. Being undermined left, right and centre from within.

 

[bigblueboy]

Transformational change is always messy...it's meant to be

Agree transformational change can be initially messy - but you also must have a long term plan and build a coalition to support it for that change to be ultimately successful.

 

[Mister Carlton]

Rate the reply.

 

[JoeyPBLUES]

Sayers has messed this up big time and there’s worse to come.
Had kept Liddle and Lloyd on to implement the review despite them being on the plank itself.
Seeks replacements for Liddle and Lloyd and the prospective alternatives are leaked publicly.
Appointed Williams as Football Director, despite him having no credentials to undertake the role.
Sacked Teague without a plan to run a replacement process.
Invented a process which no coaches or potential panel members want to be part of.
Didn’t consult fellow directors before approaching prospective coaches.
Wanted Clarkson. Failed.
Mates with Buckley. Failed.
Wants Lyon. Being undermined left, right and centre from within.

Lol. Hasn’t messed anything up at all. Loyd and Liddle are trying to leak to the media because they know they’re on their way out. I’ll wait til everything’s said and done to claim him a winner or Failure. It’s been a week and a half since the season finished. You’ve got no idea what’s going on internally and what Clarkson/Buckley or Lyon have/haven’t said. Have you been made partial to the entire review findings? Like the whole thing not what was made public ? Because I haven’t nor has anyone else outside those 4 walls. The review found (From what’s been made public) that the football department was practically incompetent last season. Why is that Sayers issue? He’s trying to fix it. Say what you like have whatever opinion you want but you can’t crucify a bloke who’s ripping thru the recommendations in a week and a half. Let’s revisit this in 12 months

 

[Gavstar]

Sayers has messed this up big time and there’s worse to come.
Had kept Liddle and Lloyd on to implement the review despite them being on the plank itself.
Seeks replacements for Liddle and Lloyd and the prospective alternatives are leaked publicly.
Appointed Williams as Football Director, despite him having no credentials to undertake the role.
Sacked Teague without a plan to run a replacement process.
Invented a process which no coaches or potential panel members want to be part of.
Didn’t consult fellow directors before approaching prospective coaches.
Wanted Clarkson. Failed.
Mates with Buckley. Failed.
Wants Lyon. Being undermined left, right and centre from within.

I’m not sure you understand the difference between your opinion and facts

 

[Gethelred]

Sayers has messed this up big time and there’s worse to come.

Cool. Demonstrate it as fact, in this moment. I'll wait.

Had kept Liddle and Lloyd on to implement the review despite them being on the plank itself.

You know how much input Liddle and Lloyd are putting into the review how, exactly?

If you know something I don't, please share.

Seeks replacements for Liddle and Lloyd and the prospective alternatives are leaked publicly.

Are they? You know that unequivocally, do you?

Appointed Williams as Football Director, despite him having no credentials to undertake the role.

This is valid criticism, but hasn't Diesel played multiple roles in multiple football departments since retiring? Is there not reason to wait before categorically declaring this a failure?

Sacked Teague without a plan to run a replacement process.

Teague been replaced yet? Again, do you know something we don't???

Invented a process which no coaches or potential panel members want to be part of.

Supposition.

Didn’t consult fellow directors before approaching prospective coaches.

You know this how?

Wanted Clarkson. Failed.
Mates with Buckley. Failed.

Supposition, again.

When the coach is selected, you can make the statement failed as truth. Until then, it's supposition, nothing more.

Wants Lyon. Being undermined left, right and centre from within.

You think we've been rejected by Clarkson and Buckley, yet we've not signed Lyon yet because we're being undermined internally. Why is this a more valid interpretation than that we're in the process of selecting a coach and assembling a panel with which to select the best possible candidate, and have yet to finalise the process?

Do you want us to undergo proper process or not? Are you willing to share the information you are privy to that informs you that this is fact or not?

 

[Gethelred]

Sayers has messed this up big time and there’s worse to come.
Had kept Liddle and Lloyd on to implement the review despite them being on the plank itself.
Seeks replacements for Liddle and Lloyd and the prospective alternatives are leaked publicly.
Appointed Williams as Football Director, despite him having no credentials to undertake the role.
Sacked Teague without a plan to run a replacement process.
Invented a process which no coaches or potential panel members want to be part of.
Didn’t consult fellow directors before approaching prospective coaches.
Wanted Clarkson. Failed.
Mates with Buckley. Failed.
Wants Lyon. Being undermined left, right and centre from within.

BTW, like Mister Carlton said, I do genuinely rate the fact that you've chosen to reply. Most wouldn't.

 

[Mister Carlton]

BTW, like Mister Carlton said, I do genuinely rate the fact that you've chosen to reply. Most wouldn't.

Sorry should have been clearer.
I'm with the other guy.

 

[bigblueboy]

I’m not sure you understand the difference between your opinion and facts

Yep, do.

 

[Gethelred]

Sorry should have been clearer.
I'm with the other guy.

No, I got that.

I appreciate the fact that he thought that deeply that he was willing to reply. Most wouldn't.

 

[bigblueboy]

Lol. Hasn’t messed anything up at all. Loyd and Liddle are trying to leak to the media because they know they’re on their way out. I’ll wait til everything’s said and done to claim him a winner or Failure. It’s been a week and a half since the season finished. You’ve got no idea what’s going on internally and what Clarkson/Buckley or Lyon have/haven’t said. Have you been made partial to the entire review findings? Like the whole thing not what was made public ? Because I haven’t nor has anyone else outside those 4 walls. The review found (From what’s been made public) that the football department was practically incompetent last season. Why is that Sayers issue? He’s trying to fix it. Say what you like have whatever opinion you want but you can’t crucify a bloke who’s ripping thru the recommendations in a week and a half. Let’s revisit this in 12 months

I’ve not said anything about what’s in the review.
And I’m not crucifying Sayers. But anyone who thinks he’s getting it right at the moment is living in fantasyland.
Just for the record, I was in favour of punting Teague, and Liddle and Lloyd et al. This is not the problem.
I don’t think he is trying to fix anything - instead he is working like he wants to create a new environment to replace the old one. It’s bold, I’ll give him that.

 

[bigblueboy]

BTW, like Mister Carlton said, I do genuinely rate the fact that you've chosen to reply. Most wouldn't.

Unlike many on here I don’t post just for the sake of it - I value debate and also have value which I believe I can add.
What I post is based on what I am told or can ascertain from listening to what those who are directly involved are saying. I don’t always get it right as no two persons versions of the facts are the same - and I’m happy to be judged on that basis.
More than comfortable in raising concerns about Sayers approach - he’s been on the board for nine years and he’s not the white knight some are saying he is.

 

[Gethelred]

Unlike many on here I don’t post just for the sake of it - I value debate and also have value which I believe I can add.
What I post is based on what I am told or can ascertain from listening to what those who are directly involved are saying. I don’t always get it right as no two persons versions of the facts are the same - and I’m happy to be judged on that basis.
More than comfortable in raising concerns about Sayers approach - he’s been on the board for nine years and he’s not the white knight some are saying he is.

My concern is purely down to what you're painted as facts. There's a reason I asked what I initially asked of you, and your response highlights what I wanted it to highlight: that the majority of the points you've made are not fact, but are conjecture based and are significantly negative interpretations of events.

I can't stop you from thinking what you want to think; you're welcome to think the earth is flat for all my influence. It doesn't change that 2+2=4, though; supposition does not become fact purely by interpretation.

 

[bigblueboy]

My concern is purely down to what you're painted as facts. There's a reason I asked what I initially asked of you, and your response highlights what I wanted it to highlight: that the majority of the points you've made are not fact, but are conjecture based and are significantly negative interpretations of events.

I can't stop you from thinking what you want to think; you're welcome to think the earth is flat for all my influence. It doesn't change that 2+2=4, though; supposition does not become fact purely by interpretation.

What I bolded are the facts as I understand them. That’s why I bolded them.
I think we are on different pages.

 

[Blue and Blue]

What I bolded are the facts as I understand them. That’s why I bolded them.
I think we are on different pages.

I think yours is a blank page when the non-facts are removed.

Thats cool....but what is the point of it really other than you want change but when it happens to just say its wrong.

 

[Gethelred]

What I bolded are the facts as I understand them. That’s why I bolded them.
I think we are on different pages.

My mother used to share a theory she had (in jest) that there was a little man inside her radio, and that little man would listen to things beyond our hearing and would do his best interpretations of what he could hear or see; it's how we got radio or TV, according to her. Interesting (and amusing) theory; doesn't make it how TV's or radios worked though, does it?

Your understanding of something does not make it fact.

 

[Gointocarlton]

What I bolded are the facts as I understand them. That’s why I bolded them.
I think we are on different pages.

Here are the facts as has been reported by the President:
- Teague was appointed coach based on the fact that a panel of people thought he could coach
- 2 Years later, it became apparent that despite a talented list riddled with high draft picks, he probably can't
- Sayers instigates an independent review of the footy dept to try and find out why we loose more games than we win
- Said review finds that Teague, Amos, Stanton and Barker need to be replaced
- The board led by Sayers now has to do the unpleasant work
Sayers isn't the bad guy here, the way I see it, he is trying to fix a s**t situation and there isn't necessarily a guide book on how to do it. As ol mate Gattuso says "Sometimes isa good, sometimes isa s**t". Perhaps if we had a decent CEO and Footy Manager, we wouldn't be here.
Time is of the essence now, draft and trade period coming up, 19 odd players OOC to either re-sign, trade and delist, assistants to hire and a new game plan to devise.

 

[TheReal99prelim]

Agree transformational change can be initially messy - but you also must have a long term plan and build a coalition to support it for that change to be ultimately successful.

So where is your evidence that there is NO plan and that a guiding coalition isn't in place behind the scenes
This transformational change has started with (what I believe) is a controlled implosion. I'm confident in winning the war, even if the odd battle has to be lost...or better still, "appear" to be lost

 

[DangerousD]

Sorry for the disjointed quote, but I’m struggling to see what you’re disagreeing with here? SEN, Chanel 9, Herald Sun, AFL 360, ITKs here, Caroline Wilson, have all reported that we have approached Cook for the CEO job, Sayers even refused to deny he approached Cook.

Someone has leaked the information.

Seeks replacements for Liddle and Lloyd and the prospective alternatives are leaked publicly.

Are they? You know that unequivocally, do you?

 

[Sonny Jim]

Sayers has messed this up big time and there’s worse to come.
Had kept Liddle and Lloyd on to implement the review despite them being on the plank itself.
Seeks replacements for Liddle and Lloyd and the prospective alternatives are leaked publicly.
Appointed Williams as Football Director, despite him having no credentials to undertake the role.
Sacked Teague without a plan to run a replacement process.
Invented a process which no coaches or potential panel members want to be part of.
Didn’t consult fellow directors before approaching prospective coaches.
Wanted Clarkson. Failed.
Mates with Buckley. Failed.
Wants Lyon. Being undermined left, right and centre from within.

Maybe someone being replaced who doesn't want to leave is providing the leaks to narrate that the Pres/board is no good? You seem to be eating up the media narrative and asking for more.

Seems pretty evident we have a person working under the Pres that likes to do whatever the * he wants and can't handle criticism about doing a s**t job.

Besides, the coach was s**t and wouldn't listen to direction. Had to go. CEO is out of his lane, and Football Manager is out of his depth. Both need to go. Football Director was unable and uninterested in doing his job well. Had to go. Another director not doing much apart from funding $$$. Needed to be replaced by a more effective person. All these people needed to go and yesterday, and need to be replaced without looking completely ridiculous and scaring away new prospective staff and board members.
How do you do all that, mate?
Half your arguments are completely baseless. No process to replace our coach? Yet somehow no coaches want to be part of our process? Really? Says who? You? No Buckley so FAIL? No Clarko so FAIL? Who says we even want them? I would rather the Prez sound out prospective coaches than the CEO try to recruit roleplayers from his former club on high wages and against the Recruitment Manager's direction. At least it's somewhat related.

You've got the knowledge that everything Sayers has done is wrong, surely you have the knowledge of how to do everything the right way, huh?

I don't think he's done anything so far that didn't need to be done. I don't think he's hurt the club in any way. I don't think he's made the club look bad or like a farce, if anything he's done exactly what he said he would do which has seemed entirely logical and practical.

I don't expect him to get everything right but I look forward to seeing what he can produce and so far I respect the leadership he has displayed so far in actually getting things done and in pulling out of control and underperforming staff back in line or dismissing them outright.

Keep your powder dry at least until preseason. There's still a heap of things still to do and get in order. More changes are still come. Give people a bloody chance to do their jobs mate.

 

[thylacine60]

Unlike many on here I don’t post just for the sake of it - I value debate and also have value which I believe I can add.
What I post is based on what I am told or can ascertain from listening to what those who are directly involved are saying. I don’t always get it right as no two persons versions of the facts are the same - and I’m happy to be judged on that basis.
More than comfortable in raising concerns about Sayers approach - he’s been on the board for nine years and he’s not the white knight some are saying he is.