Coach Grumpy

[Voice of the G]

Good to see Khawaja do a solid job opening at least.

Lets be positive I agree,up to Harris to match or do better in Vict.v SA shield game when we talk of selection for the 1st test v Pakistan.Would prefer a game in Pakistan before the 1st test where both can perform but not sure what if any games will be on before the 1st test.

 

[BStaff17]

Lets be positive I agree,up to Harris to match or do better in Vict.v SA shield game when we talk of selection for the 1st test v Pakistan.Would prefer a game in Pakistan before the 1st test where both can perform but not sure what if any games will be on before the 1st test.

Yeah i doubt they will play practice games unfortunately. Already seems like big enough security issues getting through the international games.

 

[BStaff17]

After seeing Patty talk today we have a true leader leading the playing group.

His calmness and ability to simplify the need the change was respectful and dignified. Thanked JL for the effort and time he has put into the group but bluntly said its time for a fresh voice and a new era to take this team to the next level.

He opted against getting into a slanging match with the immature ex legends who have gone off half cocked with only getting one side of the story. With a respectful quote.

Pretty much batted away Mitchell Johnson disgraceful comments with aplomb and showed he is twice the man Johnson will ever be.

And finally CA should ashamed of themselves that they have basically thrown Patty under the bus in this whole saga on top of the disrespect they showed Langer when he should have just been told time's up instead of a token 6 month offer.

 

[Voice of the G]

Yeah i doubt they will play practice games unfortunately. Already seems like big enough security issues getting through the international games.

So what Khawaji,Harris and how they go in these current shield games and in the nets pre test series when they get there will becruical in 1st test selection.At this stage I would have Harris in as opener but Khawaji has done no harm in what he has done today.

 

[BStaff17]

So what Khawaji,Harris and how they go in these current shield games and in the nets pre test series when they get there will becruical in 1st test selection.At this stage I would have Harris in as opener but Khawaji has done no harm in what he has done today.

Khawaja is a certainty surely his last start on the sub continent he saved the test match by batting 9 hours as an opener.

I reckon Harris is lucky to have batted 9 hours in total across his 14 tests.

 

[melanChronic]

this line keeps getting a run, but I think it's worth remembering that, while a seemingly different personality to Langer, Darren Lehmann was very much installed over Michael Clarke, and that Clarke made no secret in saying that he felt that Lehmann had gained too much power and there's no suggestion that Lehmann handed back those powers when Smith became captain. There's no indicition that Lehmann was sitting in the back of the room doing a crossword puzzle for all of his reign for example. Langer is the headliner, but I'm guessing the direction of the coaching panel may not just be turning away from the direction of Langer, but also Lehmann

edit I hadn't seen to1994's post on this point which raised some good points too

This is a good point, and it is important to note that when Lehmann came in Clarke voluntarily gave up his selector's position because he felt it created a divide in the dressing room. I think it was in the wake of the homework affair, where the perception from players was that he was endorsing Arthur's schoolmaster tactics and not protecting them from being dropped over such a trivial thing.

Prior to that, the captain and coach were on equal footing selection wise, and the perception was much more that the buck stopped with the captain both off and on the field. It was only with Lehmann that the coach came to prominence as a separate and equally important off-field leader of the team. It had happened earlier overseas with Flower (England) and Arthur (South Africa), but Australia was slower to embrace the evolution towards coach-as-boss (and is why the 2011-2013 Arthur tenure was so difficult).

Although there are various timeline overlaps, if you look at the list of all Australian coaches there is a one-to-one relationship with Australian captains:

Border => Simpson
Taylor => Marsh
Waugh => Buchanan
Ponting => Nielsen*
Clarke => Arthur*
Smith => Lehmann
Paine => Langer

Before Simpson there was no concept of a permanent coach, and usually the captain would also fill the role that a coach does now. It makes sense in modern cricket to relieve the captain from that extra workload, but the captain-coach relationship needs to be collaborative and on equal terms. Part of the reason that the Smith-Lehmann era was volatile and ended in tears was because Smith inherited Lehmann who already had an established vision and was the dominant partner in the relationship.

If Cummins wants to bring back the collaborative equals relationship then he needs to find the right man for his vision, and it would be unusual for him (and historically unwise) for him to continue with the incumbent coach.

*I know that Ponting and Clarke also worked with Buchanan and Lehmann respectively, but the point is that almost always a new captain is followed by a new coach.

 

[Del28562]

The leaderless era, where no one has the courage to knock ball tampering on the head. No matter what era Langer is in, his integrity would translate to him being a great coach. He got shafted by a spineless bunch of blokes who are currently trying to pass the buck onto the next bloke. It’s pathetic to watch. Thankfully the old guard actually know JL, and speak of his intrigue and professionalism.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Is this the same Langer that walked past the stumps and knocked off a bail, then some players appealed and Mr elite honesty said nothing

 

[Del28562]

I think there are a lot of people think Langer has been hard done by. But he really hasn't this has been an ongoing saga for some time. He had multiple opportunities to change his ways and clearly he wasn't capable of doing that.

Here's a couple of good articles from Wu and Conn over a number of months, showing the situation spiraling out of control.

I think a truce came from both aca, the players and coach, 12 months ago that when Justin's contract was up that was it and he'd get to see out this contract. After winning the world cup and ashes Langer has tried to use his mates and media to get another contract

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Is this the same Langer that walked past the stumps and knocked off a bail, then some players appealed and Mr elite honesty said nothing

How many times did Cummins appeal for a wicket thst he knows is not out? Cmon mate competitors take things to the edge, that’s why they play at that level and the rest of us just sit at home and watch.

 

[Boston tiger]

This is a good point, and it is important to note that when Lehmann came in Clarke voluntarily gave up his selector's position because he felt it created a divide in the dressing room. I think it was in the wake of the homework affair, where the perception from players was that he was endorsing Arthur's schoolmaster tactics and not protecting them from being dropped over such a trivial thing.

Prior to that, the captain and coach were on equal footing selection wise, and the perception was much more that the buck stopped with the captain both off and on the field. It was only with Lehmann that the coach came to prominence as a separate and equally important off-field leader of the team. It had happened earlier overseas with Flower (England) and Arthur (South Africa), but Australia was slower to embrace the evolution towards coach-as-boss (and is why the 2011-2013 Arthur tenure was so difficult).

Although there are various timeline overlaps, if you look at the list of all Australian coaches there is a one-to-one relationship with Australian captains:

Border => Simpson
Taylor => Marsh
Waugh => Buchanan
Ponting => Nielsen*
Clarke => Arthur*
Smith => Lehmann
Paine => Langer

Before Simpson there was no concept of a permanent coach, and usually the captain would also fill the role that a coach does now. It makes sense in modern cricket to relieve the captain from that extra workload, but the captain-coach relationship needs to be collaborative and on equal terms. Part of the reason that the Smith-Lehmann era was volatile and ended in tears was because Smith inherited Lehmann who already had an established vision and was the dominant partner in the relationship.

If Cummins wants to bring back the collaborative equals relationship then he needs to find the right man for his vision, and it would be unusual for him (and historically unwise) for him to continue with the incumbent coach.

*I know that Ponting and Clarke also worked with Buchanan and Lehmann respectively, but the point is that almost always a new captain is followed by a new coach.

A great read.

 

[Boston tiger]

Is this the same Langer that walked past the stumps and knocked off a bail, then some players appealed and Mr elite honesty said nothing

Just bizarre. And obviously lied to the match referee.

 

[Collars]

All the former players talking about results being the major factor of JL continuing in his role have learned nothing from the ball tampering fiasco. Aus team only cared about results and it led to an environment where certain players thought it would be okay to cheat in order to win. Winning is clearly not everything, something past players can't fathom it.

It was the current crop of players who had a coach that lacked the required disciplinary and leadership skills, and ended up cheating. Not the former players.

These same players have now pushed out a coach who dished out a few hard truths and instilled discipline amongst them.

Inmates are running the asylum.

 

[Demons09]

It was the current crop of players who had a coach that lacked the required disciplinary and leadership skills, and ended up cheating. Not the former players.

These same players have now pushed out a coach who dished out a few hard truths and instilled discipline amongst them.

Inmates are running the asylum.

I reckon this is what the former players are peeved about, i don’t think this saga is going away .

 

[greatwhiteshark]

I reckon this is what the former players are peeved about, i don’t think this saga is going away .

I really don’t think the former players care that the players have control now, they more care in how JL situation was not handled well.

 

[GoDees2021]

After seeing Patty talk today we have a true leader leading the playing group.

His calmness and ability to simplify the need the change was respectful and dignified. Thanked JL for the effort and time he has put into the group but bluntly said its time for a fresh voice and a new era to take this team to the next level.

He opted against getting into a slanging match with the immature ex legends who have gone off half cocked with only getting one side of the story. With a respectful quote.

Pretty much batted away Mitchell Johnson disgraceful comments with aplomb and showed he is twice the man Johnson will ever be.

And finally CA should ashamed of themselves that they have basically thrown Patty under the bus in this whole saga on top of the disrespect they showed Langer when he should have just been told time's up instead of a token 6 month offer.

This is such a wank, after showing poor leadership for a month apparently a single written statement clears everything up. What a joke lol. Can tell someones a fan of Cummins reguardless.

 

[The Casey Cat]

This is such a wank, after showing poor leadership for a month apparently a single written statement clears everything up. What a joke lol. Can tell someones a fan of Cummins reguardless.

And can tell all you want to do is post false, ignorant rubbish regardless. How did Cummins show 'poor leadership for a month'?

 

[GoDees2021]

And can tell all you want to do is post false, ignorant rubbish regardless. How did Cummins show 'poor leadership for a month'?

He led a faction of the playing group to sack the coach, he danced around the questions in media interviews half pregnant with his responses and now rolls out a written statement and hes the leader of a generation? Spare me

 

[Carbine Chaos]

Cummins should never have had to answer those questions in the first place as a new captain. CA should have stepped up and been transparent with wanting to move on from Langer after the Ashes. If that many of the players really wanted him gone it’s not as though it would have disrupted the playing squad or anything.

 

[Blue1980]

It was a pretty similar situation, a coach they respected but a coach who fitted in better with the former skipper than the younger man who had his own vision for the side and a also coach who was very intense and liked to do things his way and had just worn the players down to the point where they needed a break and a new direction.

It simply wanst a big deal back then and simspon didnt make it one neither did his former teammates, his time was up even though he clearly had results on the board but the view from most was the test team should and does belong to the skipper not the coach so they backed the young skippers vision for the side over a well respected older coach.

But it's either wrong to change the coach both times or none, if its wrong now it was wrong when the people defending langer did it to simpson.

Big difference is Simpson wasn’t one of the media/ past players favourites at that time, which in 1996 was dominated by former WSC types such as the Chappels, Marsh, Lillee etc. Simpson was an establishment older figure to them.

 

[Boston tiger]

He led a faction of the playing group to sack the coach, he danced around the questions in media interviews half pregnant with his responses and now rolls out a written statement and hes the leader of a generation? Spare me

Already shown himself to be the greatest Captain Australia has ever had and hopefully he becomes Australia’s first official Captain Coach and they pay him double.
Took the Baggy Green Boys on and didn’t flinch once. And he’s only just started. What a legend what a leader what a man.

 

[frankrizzo]

Big difference is Simpson wasn’t one of the media/ past players favourites at that time, which in 1996 was dominated by former WSC types such as the Chappels, Marsh, Lillee etc. Simpson was an establishment older figure to them.

I also think many from all generations of aussie cricket were worried about the way the border has basically given up control of the side to simpson and were happy taylor wanted a return to it being the skippers team.

i just find it so strange taylors era of players now seem to have wanted langer to be a long term coach who sets the direction for the side and not the skipper when they hated that idea when it was them running things, so many here also keep comparing it to a sport like AFL where you have these hard bastard coaches running the show for 20 years while multiple generations come and go but i mean who cares what the afl does? thats a vastly different game not test cricket its never been the way tests are run in tests you back your skipper and everybody else is meant to facilitate his running of the side.

p.s. the elephant in the room with all this is surely cummins already discussed all this with CA back before he accepted the captaincy or before they offered it? He would have said i won't be looking at continuing the paine/langer style of running the side i want to take full control of the side again and i need a support staff to facilitate this, ca must have known a new skipper would mean a new approach if they didnt like what cummins had laid out they wouldn't have backed him in.

 

[Stax on the mill]

This is such a wank, after showing poor leadership for a month apparently a single written statement clears everything up. What a joke lol. Can tell someones a fan of Cummins reguardless.

And does anyone seriously think Cummins crafted that flawed statement anyway? Pretty obvious a team of CA bureaucrats/lawyers have been slaving over it for days. Then gave it to Cummins to present as if it was his own creation.

 

[Del28562]

Just bizarre. And obviously lied to the match referee.

What no one understands is why did he let the game stop for 5 minutes and not speak up and just say to his team mates and the ump, sorry I must have accidentally knocked off the bail when I tapped it, he did nothing

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Not a good statement from Cummins. No issues with the intensity and need a skills-based coach despite JL being in the job fit four years and finishing by winning the T20 cup (against the odds, mind you) and the Ashes. Not buying it.

As someone said above, international cricketers are about as close to a finished product you can get and know how to perform at the elite level. What is required from a coach is someone to develop a game plan and keep the players out of their own heads. If JL was not capable of doing either then why did he have a job for four years?

He should have been sacked 12 months ago.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Already shown himself to be the greatest Captain Australia has ever had and hopefully he becomes Australia’s first official Captain Coach and they pay him double.
Took the Baggy Green Boys on and didn’t flinch once. And he’s only just started. What a legend what a leader what a man.

Been in charge for one series and already got two head coaches sacked!