Coach Grumpy

[Tugga27]

Pretty clear BNG is really thick. Cummins only referenced standards, love of the baggy green. Zip about coaching.

FFS Uncle, you still crapping on.

Go and have a cup of Horlicks and a lie down mate.
It's time for your afternoon nap.

 

[FreoRicci]

There is something in between the two though.

Like what?
Let the players take charge, and their won’t be any accountability. The culture sucks. Pre sandpapergate and now post.

 

[to1994]

That's not a positive. Khawaja was right, the days of captains being solely in charge of the team is no longer viable. The idea that Cummins is best placed to assess his own strengths and weaknesses is flawed, the idea that he could do the same for other players is absurd. Yes, they each have their own coaches but someone needs to have a look at the bigger picture.

The perception remains that the players pushed Langer out, that the next coach will be more of a yes-man to the players; the last time we let the inmates run the asylum, someone thought it was a good idea to take sandpaper out on to the field.

I'm not totally sold on this being the case. Lehmann was brought in because the dressing room morale was at an all time low and he was there to help fix the culture along with Brad Haddin who was brought back as VC partly for that reason.

I don't think Lehmann was a yes man coach and I'd go as far as to say the Sandpaper debacle was actually a team plan that had been going on for many series. Plenty of teams were clearly doing something similar and I think Kohli yelling into the stump mic and blaming the broadcasters recently somewhat re-enforced that even other teams saw it as poor form from Super Sport, not so much the Australian team being completely toxic. It suggests to me this sort of practice is pretty common at International level.

It's also worth pointing out that even if you think sandpaper came about because of poor culture, it was not because the players thought they could do no wrong and were above everyone else. In fact, they did it because they felt they were under extreme pressure to win as made evident by James Sutherland intimidating the players including the then captain, Steve Smith who he told they pay them to win, not to play.

The players proved they can deliver results without JL's intense, natural coaching style over the last 6 months. If that style of coaching is working best, why not hire someone who is naturally that sort of coach instead of keeping Langer on who has mostly delegated and sat on the side lines?

 

[Barrybran]

Not a good statement from Cummins. No issues with the intensity and need a skills-based coach despite JL being in the job fit four years and finishing by winning the T20 cup (against the odds, mind you) and the Ashes. Not buying it.

As someone said above, international cricketers are about as close to a finished product you can get and know how to perform at the elite level. What is required from a coach is someone to develop a game plan and keep the players out of their own heads. If JL was not capable of doing either then why did he have a job for four years?

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Like what?
Let the players take charge, and their won’t be any accountability. The culture sucks. Pre sandpapergate and now post.

The players need some say you can’t have a coach being an intense angry man all the time that style wears thin very quickly too

 

[deanc]

FFS Uncle, you still crapping on.

Go and have a cup of Horlicks and a lie down mate.
It's time for your afternoon nap.

 

[The Passenger]

My overall point here is, I don't think Langer's approach works as well in that set up. These guys reach the absolute peak of their sport - they don't need some angry ant yelling at them all the time to get them to perform.

Nailed it. Maybe it works for a while, particularly in light of how Langer first moved into the job.

But given enough time this style of coaching wears thin on just about any player in any sport.

International cricket doesn't really suit the angry ant coaching style anyway. At least in franchise cricket they are short stints and the intensity of cricket is higher.

The results under Langer have been decent but it's not like they were amazing. We've generally won we should have and lost when we were expected to lose. The two glaring exceptions was unexpectedly claiming the T20 world cup and losing last summer to India.

 

[BStaff17]

Like what?
Let the players take charge, and their won’t be any accountability. The culture sucks. Pre sandpapergate and now post.

There will be accountability by whoever takes over. They just won't have a dummy spit over every little minor thing that happens.

As pat said JL was the coach we needed 4 years ago but not the coach we need now.

And the players won't go down the bad behaviour like sandpaper shit again. Who would want to go through what Smith and Warner went through.

 

[SSwans2011]

I think it's fascinating how quick people are turning on Cummins over this.

In my eyes, if Langer was advised to stay away from the group during a T20 World Cup which they would ultimately go on to win, and make clear that team morale was a big factor in that success, right after a series where they lost to Bangladesh 4-1, surely this was the only logical end result?

People can moan about the players being soft, but I'd hate to be in the dressing room if Langer is the kind of person to crack the shits at a CA staffer over something as trivial as uploading footage of Bangladesh celebrating a series win, as if Cricket Australia should only serve as a propaganda arm of the Australian team. There's a difference between having high expectations and just being a dick.

 

[damochandler]

Losing to India TWICE at home is enough for him to go. End of the day we should be belting an awful England side. You shouldn't be losing two series' at home to India.

So India are hopeless as well going by your logic. The first series they pretty much put a third string side out. You are starting to sound like that former poster that thought finch in the Australian test team was a no brainer.

 

[Xtreme]

Langers blood is on Scotty Cummins' hands

Shame on you!

 

[SSwans2011]

Not a good statement from Cummins. No issues with the intensity and need a skills-based coach despite JL being in the job fit four years and finishing by winning the T20 cup (against the odds, mind you) and the Ashes. Not buying it.

As someone said above, international cricketers are about as close to a finished product you can get and know how to perform at the elite level. What is required from a coach is someone to develop a game plan and keep the players out of their own heads. If JL was not capable of doing either then why did he have a job for four years?

The shock of this occurring after the T20 World Cup victory was what stuck out for me initially too, but that followed the 4-1 series loss in Bangladesh, after which Langer was advised to give the players more space. I didn't believe everything in Tom Morris' article, but that rumour seems to have quite a bit of substance behind it, and has been reported for a number of months by a few different reporters.

I think the Ashes is sort of a moot point at this point. We also won the last home Ashes under Lehmann 4-0, but that was directly before the infamous South Africa tour, and in hindsight, it's plain to see that the success of that series was merely papering over the cracks.

 

[Barrybran]

The shock of this occurring after the T20 World Cup victory was what stuck out for me initially too, but that followed the 4-1 series loss in Bangladesh, after which Langer was advised to give the players more space. I didn't believe everything in Tom Morris' article, but that rumour seems to have quite a bit of substance behind it, and has been reported for a number of months by a few different reporters.

I think the Ashes is sort of a moot point at this point. We also won the last home Ashes under Lehmann 4-0, but that was directly before the infamous South Africa tour, and in hindsight, it's plain to see that the success of that series was merely papering over the cracks.

I don't doubt there are issues. I think Cummins should come clean though. From what has been described I would blame the CA board but that's clearly not where the issue lies.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Not a good statement from Cummins. No issues with the intensity and need a skills-based coach despite JL being in the job fit four years and finishing by winning the T20 cup (against the odds, mind you) and the Ashes. Not buying it.

As someone said above, international cricketers are about as close to a finished product you can get and know how to perform at the elite level. What is required from a coach is someone to develop a game plan and keep the players out of their own heads. If JL was not capable of doing either then why did he have a job for four years?

I have lost a bit of respect for Cummins tbh.

Thought he was a pretty straight laced guy but this statement is just full of shit.

The bit about wanting a skills orientated coach is just horse shit. That is not a head coach's job. That is the line coaches job to which there is one for literally every skill bat bowling fielding etc etc.

 

[SSwans2011]

I don't doubt there at issues. I think Cummins should come clean though. From what has been described I would blame the CA board but that's clearly not where the issue lies.

I agree to an extent, but he also realistically needs to be diplomatic, or it could just make things worse ahead of the subcontinent tours. Every past player that played with Langer is jumping in to give their two cents when IMO it's not their place to comment unless they've actually been in the camp.

Probably not a good comparison, but I remember a youth football coach I had. He was teaching a class at my brother's school and my intel was that he was a well-liked teacher, and students enjoyed his classes. As coach of my football team though, he was a complete dick and made me consider changing clubs or just quitting all together. He pushed for high standards, and we played in a higher division, but most the long-term players I spoke to afterwards hated playing under him, and a bunch left the club, or just quit playing at the end of that year. Thankfully there was a well-established coach in the next age group and he and his son ****ed off to another club. Unsurprisingly the team got better results under a coach that they respected, rather than merely feared.

 

[Belnakor]

Yep it's the one 12 months ago that I have a huge problem with. There were no excuses.

people keep talking about we are winning and thats all that matters.

he won against a shit england team who took the worst top order in the history of the ashes

 

[SSwans2011]

I have lost a bit of respect for Cummins tbh.

Thought he was a pretty straight laced guy but this statement is just full of sh*t.

The bit about wanting a skills orientated coach is just horse sh*t. That is not a head coach's job. That is the line coaches job to which there is one for literally every skill bat bowling fielding etc etc.

Well what should he say?

"Members of the team reckons Langer is a campaigner"

How do you reckon that would pan out? And realistically what would it achieve going forward rather than creating morw controversy and distractions?

 

[Demons09]

No wonder Dizzy is not interested in the job.

 

[SSwans2011]

people keep talking about we are winning and thats all that matters.

he won against a sh*t england team who took the worst top order in the history of the ashes

And he won the T20 comp where he was effectively told to **** off and leave the playing group alone after a series we lost 4-1 and he abused a CA staffer over daring to upload a video of Bangladesh celebrating a series win.

 

[SSwans2011]

Maybe I'm reading too much into the abusing the CA staffer thing, but for me that's probably the key incident that leaves me feeling fine about all of this.

What could his issue possibly have been about a Bangladesh series win being posted on the CA website? I didn't want us to lose that series, but it's great to see what it means to Bangladesh, and great for cricket. To me, that alone reeks of Langer being a dick and control freak - two things that guarantee you won't last long coaching a a major national cricket team.

 

[Belnakor]

No wonder Dizzy is not interested in the job.

he was never interested, too much travel.

 

[FreoRicci]

The job of a coach of a rep team is almost fundamentally different to say, an AFL team.

If you're John Longmire, you're taking kids as 18 years and having to instill into them what it takes to become professional AFL players. You're taking young, immature amateurs and trying to turn them into professionals who can perform. It's also likely that unless you're a rookie coach, you're earning more money than 90% of your players, and are more important than 95% of your players on an individual level.

If you're Justin Langer, you're (generally) taking grown men, who are already professionals, and have been selected in the side because they've been identified as the best 11 players in the country. They are vastly closer to the finished product than any AFL player coming in at 18. Of course that's not to say a good coach can't get growth out of a test player, but you get my point. Like, Scott Boland comes in as a full grown man with a wife and kids and a complete understanding of how to perform. In addition, you're also dealing with players who are under immense pressure to perform because they don't have the luxury of long term contracts.

My overall point here is, I don't think Langer's approach works as well in that set up. These guys reach the absolute peak of their sport - they don't need some angry ant yelling at them all the time to get them to perform.

It’s what the culture needed at the time. Get out the cheats and redevelop.
Funnily enough the same players stood aside came back in and no surprise the culture changed.
A series loss to Bangladesh, and the coach is meant to be relaxed? Confusing. The same approach pushed them over the line in the T20 World Cup.

 

[SSwans2011]

It’s what the culture needed at the time. Get out the cheats and redevelop.
Funnily enough the same players stood aside came back in and no surprise the culture changed.
A series loss to Bangladesh, and the coach is meant to be relaxed? Confusing. The same approach pushed them over the line in the T20 World Cup.

Actually, no. It was seemingly the change in approach that resulted in the T20 World Cup success. Langer was allegedly told to keep at a distance from the team, and was absent from the training sessions. The change in morale was plain to see, and although I respect Khawaja and Head for coming to Langer's defence, they were notably absent from those two tours.

 

[DKS17]

some posters in here seem like bigger sooks than the players.

 

[BStaff17]

Actually, no. It was seemingly the change in approach that resulted in the T20 World Cup success. Langer was allegedly told to keep at a distance from the team, and was absent from the training sessions. The change in morale was plain to see, and although I respect Khawaja and Head for coming to Langer's defence, they were notably absent from those two tours.

Khawaja basically showed in the TEST doco on Amazon what Langer's flaws were as well back in 2018 when he told him everyone was on eggshells.