Analysis Coaching discussion 2017

[Marc_Remillard]

OK which second rucks were available? That would have ment either Watts or Weed playing reserves for the season

So no rucks have been traded over the last two years? You need to do some research.

Good coaches will pick a balanced team, if that means Wiedeman has to win his spot by playing for Casey then the team will be better for it. During the Bailey/Neeld years we gave games to kids without them deserving it, it was an absolute disaster, I would have hoped we had learn from past mistakes. Apparently not.

 

[Topkent]

So no rucks have been traded over the last two years? You need to do some research.

Good coaches will pick a balanced team, if that means Wiedeman has to win his spot by playing for Casey then the team will be better for it. During the Bailey/Neeld years we gave games to kids without them deserving it, it was an absolute disaster, I would have hoped we had learn from past mistakes. Apparently not.

Luey from Brisbane to Essendon. No
Sinclair from WC to Sydney. Was offered the number 1 spot. We couldn't get him
Phillips from GWS to Carlton. No
Stanley from St Kilda to Geelong. Pick 21 and he's not very good
Witts from Collingwood to Brisbane. No

Who is it that was magically available for a 2nd round pick

 

[CTHORANGE]

For the last couple of years we've given up 2nd round picks for Melksham and Hibberd. Melksham is continuing on from his form at Essendon, a depth player at best, but Hibberd was pretty good last night. But the problem with these two trades is that they were for a type of position that we were actually pretty strong in, the reality is that we have desperately needed a genuine 2nd ruck for a long time.

Now the worst case scenario has happened, all 3 rucks are injured, but the truth is that we really only had 1 true ruckman in the first place. So instead of doing the obvious and trading for a desperate need, Goodwin went and got his mates from Essendon using valuable picks.

Goodwin has inherited a very talented list, but it still needs work, it's not balanced. He's already made some other decisions that are also looking shaky, Viney as captain who looks to have gone backwards and playing Watts as our 2nd ruck.

Most agree Melksham was a poor pick up then and now. Not sure you can say we were strong with mid sized half back flankers who can kick / rebound the ball well? Vince doesn't belong there. Salem doesn't belong there. Melksham sure doesn't belong there. All we had was Hunt who has come on leaps and bounds this year after showing potential last year. Hibberd was a great pick up for an area we have a deficiency in.

We have a genuine second ruck, Spencer, but I'm thinking you meant a forward / ruck who plays in the best 22? Yes we've needed that for a long time, but decent ones are hard to get so we rolled the dice on relying solely on Gawn and lost this year.

 

[Marc_Remillard]

Luey from Brisbane to Essendon. No
Sinclair from WC to Sydney. Was offered the number 1 spot. We couldn't get him
Phillips from GWS to Carlton. No
Stanley from St Kilda to Geelong. Pick 21 and he's not very good
Witts from Collingwood to Brisbane. No

Who is it that was magically available for a 2nd round pick

Without doing any research and from just memory Vardy and Nankervis both went for late picks. Hell, even Witts would have been good for a 3rd rounder.

But your wish came true. Instead of what we needed we got Hibberd and Melksham, and remind me again how our defence went against Richmond with these stars in our defence. At one stage Richmond were scoring overtime they got the ball past the centre line.

 

[Marc_Remillard]

Most agree Melksham was a poor pick up then and now. Not sure you can say we were strong with mid sized half back flankers who can kick / rebound the ball well? Vince doesn't belong there. Salem doesn't belong there. Melksham sure doesn't belong there. All we had was Hunt who has come on leaps and bounds this year after showing potential last year. Hibberd was a great pick up for an area we have a deficiency in.

We have a genuine second ruck, Spencer, but I'm thinking you meant a forward / ruck who plays in the best 22? Yes we've needed that for a long time, but decent ones are hard to get so we rolled the dice on relying solely on Gawn and lost this year.

Spencer has never been an AFL quality ruckman, he tries hard but he just doesn't have it. Hibberd played well but we always desperately needed a 2nd ruck more than a HBF. He did have a very good rebounding game last night but our defence was terrible for most of the night even with him in it.

Last year we committed to Hibberd long before the trade period started, we basically didn't even bother trying to trade for our need or wait to see who was available.

But you're right, we rolled the dice of having 1 genuine ruckman on the list, so the season has gone. I'm sicki of watching this club make decisions which ruin our season year after year.

 

[Cannon82]

Who would agree to come to Melbourne and play in the reserves behind Gawn who is clearly better than Spencer?

Also we don't have anyone who plays Hibberds role very well at all

Vardy would have been worth a look. Then again, he's injury prone as well, but it's strange how the niggles dry up for some players once they get to new clubs.

 

[Marc_Remillard]

I'm struggling to think of a ruckman who is worse than Spencer and has been on a list for 9 years.

 

[schmuttt]

I can't agree about the ruck thing, nor can I agree we already had depth on the HBF.

It's a very hard sell to say to a guy at another club 'want to come be our ruck at Casey unless Gawn goes down? And even then you're competing with Spencer'. The Eagles only got away with getting Vardy because they knew NN and Lycett had long term injuries so there was a spot available.

Who did we have on the HBF before Melksham and Hibberd? Hunt hadn't played a game when they traded in Melksham and Hibberd is a much better HBF than anyone else on our list.

 

[CTHORANGE]

I'm struggling to think of a ruckman who is worse than Spencer and has been on a list for 9 years.

Spencer is there as a cost effective back up. A decent quality ruckman isn't going to sit in the reserves for 8 years behind Jamar and now Gawn. And even if they did, why would you want to pay them more to do that? Any decent backups we could have had would have left within 2 years. Quality teams like Hawthorn had total junk ruckman backups, but they were ok if called upon because of the rest of the team.

 

[Tulip]

Hibberd was pretty good last night. But the problem with these two trades is that they were for a type of position that we were actually pretty strong in.

What in the world are you talking about? We have Hunt, Jetta and Hibberd off half back - that's it. Maybe Melksham, but he's a special case. Salem is playing midfield this season. Never mind the fact that Hibberd was outstanding last night.

 

[Marc_Remillard]

Spencer is there as a cost effective back up. A decent quality ruckman isn't going to sit in the reserves for 8 years behind Jamar and now Gawn. And even if they did, why would you want to pay them more to do that? Any decent backups we could have had would have left within 2 years. Quality teams like Hawthorn had total junk ruckman backups, but they were ok if called upon because of the rest of the team.

How many teams who regularly play finals have a no.2 ruckman as good as Spencer?

But seriously, I've used that term myself 'Cost effective ruckman' in trying to talk Spencer up. Look at how many clubs have traded for mature ruckman over the last 5 years. But to suggest we shouldn't try to trade for one because they would leave within two years is basically admitting to giving up.

Our list is out of balance, we have 1 genuine ruckman, a severe lack of quality key defenders and only one real key forward.

Yet we keep trading for rebounding HBF'ers. effing awesome

 

[Tulip]

Tom Nicholls and Zac Clarke are two that might be available for cheap, but it would mean Spencer has to agree to never be picked again unless weh have another injury run like this.

 

[Marc_Remillard]

What in the world are you talking about? We have Hunt, Jetta and Hibberd off half back - that's it. Maybe Melksham, but he's a special case. Salem is playing midfield this season. Never mind the fact that Hibberd was outstanding last night.

Hibberd was outstanding yet our defense was terrible. At one stage Richmond were scoring everytime they went forward, what's the point of having a team full or rebounding HBF'ers if we can't stop the opposition from scoring?

Last year without Hibberd and Melksham our team structure started to look really good and our defense was playing really well. As a group they began to work together really well. This year we should be a lot better with the two additions and the natural development of a young team. But we haven't, if anything we've gone backwards.

If we only have Hunt, Jetta, Hibberd and Melksham off half back how did we manage last year with only Hunt and Jetta? This season we're already averaging more against compared to last season.

 

[Tulip]

Hibberd was outstanding yet our defense was terrible. At one stage Richmond were scoring everytime they went forward, what's the point of having a team full or rebounding HBF'ers if we can't stop the opposition from scoring?

Last year without Hibberd and Melksham our team structure started to look really good and our defense was playing really well. As a group they began to work together really well. This year we should be a lot better with the two additions and the natural development of a young team. But we haven't, if anything we've gone backwards.

If we only have Hunt, Jetta, Hibberd and Melksham off half back how did we manage last year with only Hunt and Jetta? This season we're already averaging more against compared to last season.

Have you considered the fact that we lost the best defensively minded coach of the last 30 years and replaced him with a guy with a fetish for run and gun football?

Criticise the structures all you like, but Richmond only started scoring once our guys were worn off their feet for never getting a rest.

Smith and Spencer down, with Jones and Petracca hobbling. You make it sound so easy.

By the way, we played Wagner most of last season in that third HBF role - and he was shithouse.

 

[Marc_Remillard]

I can't agree about the ruck thing, nor can I agree we already had depth on the HBF.

We did pretty well last year without Melksham and Hibberd

It's a very hard sell to say to a guy at another club 'want to come be our ruck at Casey unless Gawn goes down? And even then you're competing with Spencer'. The Eagles only got away with getting Vardy because they knew NN and Lycett had long term injuries so there was a spot available.

Why can't we play two rucks? West Coast has done it this year, hell they even traded for Petrie to play that backup role where we are using Watts which decimates our forwardline. That tells you how other clubs see the importance of it.

Who did we have on the HBF before Melksham and Hibberd? Hunt hadn't played a game when they traded in Melksham and Hibberd is a much better HBF than anyone else on our list.

Who did we have playing in those positions last year when our defense was better? Hibberd is a good rebounding HBF'er, but he's not going to stop other teams scoring but we need a more balanced team. It's much easier to fill in a rebounding defender than it is to get a backup ruckman or key position player. How many other clubs have used a 2nd round pick on a defender two years running?

 

[Marc_Remillard]

Have you considered the fact that we lost the best defensively minded coach of the last 30 years and replaced him with a guy with a fetish for run and gun football?

Criticise the structures all you like, but Richmond only started scoring once our guys were worn off their feet for never getting a rest.

Smith and Spencer down, with Jones and Petracca hobbling. You make it sound so easy.

By the way, we played Wagner most of last season in that third HBF role - and he was shithouse.

I think we were watching a different game, early in the game before our injuries everytime Richmond went forward they scored. Even though we dominated the inside 50's our defense leaked like a sieve.

And yes, I have considered the point about the difference in coaching mindsets but last year we were starting to play a really good balance of attack and defense. This year the signs are if our forward press breaks down the opposition can score at will. We don't have the talent or team structure to get away with this style of football.

And what the hell was the point of the succession plan if we're making the same mistake of the Bailey era? A high offensive game plan that breaks down when the opposition gets on top?

 

[CTHORANGE]

How many teams who regularly play finals have a no.2 ruckman as good as Spencer?

It's hard to answer because until this year you could rescue a bad ruckman with a third man up, so I would say Geelong and Hawthorn.

But I think you're being a bit harsh on Spencer, he's average at best, but I don't think he is as bad as you are suggesting.

 

[Demon 16]

I think he's got us playing with really good intensity.

The 2 issues with the game plan are;

1) that we are not converting enough when forward and are probably over possessing when we have the ball.

2) we get really hurt on the rebound because we push up so high.

I'm happy to stick with it and hope that we are still refining our execution, but getting hurt on the rebound is a bit of a concern and may well require some tinkering with in the coming weeks I think.

 

[Tempy Tiger]

I think he's got us playing with really good intensity.

The 2 issues with the game plan are;

1) that we are not converting enough when forward and are probably over possessing when we have the ball.

2) we get really hurt on the rebound because we push up so high.

I'm happy to stick with it and hope that we are still refining our execution, but getting hurt on the rebound is a bit of a concern and may well require some tinkering with in the coming weeks I think.

Spot on.

 

[Tempy Tiger]

I was thinking during the preseason that overpossessing was an intentional strategy to bring everyone into the game but under pressure it just falls apart. It's fine if your a much better side than your opponent but in that situation who cares anyway? I think we are handballing too much and crowding our forward 50 too much. Its like we are trying to play an offside trap...

 

[Cannon82]

I'm struggling to think of a ruckman who is worse than Spencer and has been on a list for 9 years.

How long has Zach Clarke been on a list?

 

[Topkent]

How many teams who regularly play finals have a no.2 ruckman as good as Spencer?

But seriously, I've used that term myself 'Cost effective ruckman' in trying to talk Spencer up. Look at how many clubs have traded for mature ruckman over the last 5 years. But to suggest we shouldn't try to trade for one because they would leave within two years is basically admitting to giving up.

Our list is out of balance, we have 1 genuine ruckman, a severe lack of quality key defenders and only one real key forward.

Yet we keep trading for rebounding HBF'ers. effing awesome

Um Geelong, Hawthorn, Bulldogs, Adelaide, GWS all have average second rucks

 

[schmuttt]

I was thinking during the preseason that overpossessing was an intentional strategy to bring everyone into the game but under pressure it just falls apart. It's fine if your a much better side than your opponent but in that situation who cares anyway? I think we are handballing too much and crowding our forward 50 too much. Its like we are trying to play an offside trap...

We need to tone back the aggression on the press, the F50 is getting wayyyyyyy too crowded. I'd have no issue with the gameplan if we stopped congesting our F50 so much and held the press back outside the 50, it'd make it a lot easier to hit those precision passes we did so well against the Saints R1.

 

[Cannon82]

Um Geelong, Hawthorn, Bulldogs, Adelaide, GWS all have average second rucks

Not far off to say Geelong have average rucks, period. Stanley, Smith, Blicavs (if he still qualifies as a ruck)...
Ditto Hawks as McEvoy is a bucket full of nothing special.
I can't even remember who the Dogs first choice ruck is. Roughead?

 

[CTHORANGE]

I was thinking during the preseason that overpossessing was an intentional strategy to bring everyone into the game but under pressure it just falls apart. It's fine if your a much better side than your opponent but in that situation who cares anyway? I think we are handballing too much and crowding our forward 50 too much. Its like we are trying to play an offside trap...

There's definitely a bit of soccer about it, trying to dominate possession in the opponents 1/3, problem is the counter is always on and we don't have a goal keeper to stop teams walking it into the goal square.