Coaching misconceptions

[Channels]

I've never understood he criticism of coaches such as Ross Lyon, who didn't 'play the kids' or 'develop the list'.

When I look at the cycle St Kilda were in, i can find a reason why they wouldn't put their best team out on the park while their window for a premiership was open. In fact, historically many teams who have managed to keep form up and limit injuries have been succesful.

Same with Freo, chasing a flag and played the best available accordingly to try and get there.

There is a whole match selection committee which most seem to ignore and foot the blame for list development to the coach.

Any other common coaching misconceptions out there?

 

[owen87]

I've never understood he criticism of coaches such as Ross Lyon, who didn't 'play the kids' or 'develop the list'.

When I look at the cycle St Kilda were in, i can find a reason why they wouldn't put their best team out on the park while their window for a premiership was open. In fact, historically many teams who have managed to keep form up and limit injuries have been succesful.

Same with Freo, chasing a flag and played the best available accordingly to try and get there.

There is a whole match selection committee which most seem to ignore and foot the blame for list development to the coach.

Any other common coaching misconceptions out there?

It's because Ross Lyon is Supercoach Kryptonite.

 

[Chism]

Is that you Ross?

 

[demondavey]

Other than the misconception that Paul Roos did nothing at Melbourne according to some flogs on BF, you’re pretty spot on.

 

[demondavey]

The whole Ross Lyon is no good crap that gets trotted out, particularly by Saints fans is laughable. They’ll pull out the ‘He gutted our club’ line whilst forgetting he took them to two grand finals. He built the list and game plan at St Kilda yet the players failed to deliver when it mattered. No issues with him jumping ship. What more could he have done? St Kilda put in a Mark Neeld type replacement in Scott Watters which dragged them into their current hole.

Lyon also took Fremantle to their first GF and had them top 4 for 3 years. The best period in the clubs history. If the players showed some more effort in 2013 they may have beaten Hawthorn.

Ross Lyon is a ******* good coach.

 

[Channels]

And it's not just about Ross, although Saints fans live to bring it up.

I think often, people forget there are other positions at footy clubs, list managers, foir managers etc.

The one i find hardest to judge is how people outside of a club can know if an assistant coach is effective.

 

[Brennan Huff]

Other than the misconception that Paul Roos did nothing at Melbourne according to some flogs on BF, you’re pretty spot on.

It’s a funny one isn’t it, and Bolton is applauded for what he’s achieved (or hasn’t) so far.

 

[PenAndPaper]

Ross is definitely a good coach but in saying that he also seems to hang onto playing the more experienced guys for a tad too long, therefore affecting the development of the younger guys by giving them less exposure at AFL level.

He is still a damn good coach though and to make 3 Grand Finals in his time as a coach is a fair achievement compared to most.

 

[demondavey]

It’s a funny one isn’t it, and Bolton is applauded for what’s he achieved (or hasn’t achieved) so far.

Yeah pretty much. The countless arguments I’ve had with flogs arguing Roos was no good astounds me still today.

 

[mike123]

It's funny how Ross lost a Grandfinal to a team that played the kids.

 

[Channels]

It's funny how Ross lost a Grandfinal to a team that played the kids.

The kids weren't best 22?

 

[Mr Anderson]

Lyon also took Fremantle to their first GF and had them top 4 for 3 years. The best period in the clubs history. If the players showed some more effort in 2013 they may have beaten Hawthorn.

Ross Lyon is a ******* good coach.

Effort wasn't the problem that day - they were playing one of the best sides of all time. If the Freo players had taken their opportunities kicking for goal in the first half, the result might well have been different.

Agree, Lyon clearly is an excellent coach with a very good track record.

 

[demondavey]

It's funny how Ross lost a Grandfinal to a team that played the kids.

It was the players that lost. Not Lyon. If you need that much coaching on GF day then you’re in trouble as a player.

 

[Scotland]

Is this just a Ross Lyon thread?

Effort wasn't the problem that day - they were playing one of the best sides of all time. If the Freo players had taken their opportunities kicking for goal in the first half, the result might well have been different.

Agree, Lyon clearly is an excellent coach with a very good track record.

1.6 at half time and lost 8.14 to 11.11.

My biggest criticism of his coaching is that he is too focused on defensive structure and keeping the game as an arm wrestle.

These are the final scores of all of his finals sides:

Freo: 69, 67, 69, 83, 87, 99, 62, 96, 71
St Kilda: 57, 83, 88, 68, 52, 80, 60, 68, 61, 106, 64 (a team with Riewoldt, Koschitzke, Milne, Schneider and skillful players like Dal Santo, Hayes, Goddard, Montagna in the middle)

You're not going to give yourself the best chance of being successful cracking 100 once in 20 finals. If you're only going to score 60-70 points then you need to grind down a side to only scoring 50-60 or fewer to win. We were pretty ****ed in our last GF appearance but I was pleased in getting there we attacked Hawthorn/North and put them under scoreboard pressure. Up 50 at 3QT in the QF and should've easily won the PF by more kicking 10.20.

When you keep quality teams like Geelong 09, Collingwood 10, Hawthorn 13 in the game then they can break you with a good quarter or even a 5-10 minute burst. St Kilda were up at every break in 2009 then lost by 2 goals because Geelong kicked 2.1 to a rushed behind in the last 5-10 minutes. At no stage were Geelong ever under meaningful scoreboard pressure.

 

[Mr Anderson]

Is this just a Ross Lyon thread?



1.6 at half time and lost 8.14 to 11.11.

My biggest criticism of his coaching is that he is too focused on defensive structure and keeping the game as an arm wrestle.

These are the final scores of all of his finals sides:

Freo: 69, 67, 69, 83, 87, 99, 62, 96, 71
St Kilda: 57, 83, 88, 68, 52, 80, 60, 68, 61, 106, 64 (a team with Riewoldt, Koschitzke, Milne, Schneider and skillful players like Dal Santo, Hayes, Goddard, Montagna in the middle)

You're not going to give yourself the best chance of being successful cracking 100 once in 20 finals. If you're only going to score 60-70 points then you need to grind down a side to only scoring 50-60 or fewer to win. We were pretty ****** in our last GF appearance but I was pleased in getting there we attacked Hawthorn/North and put them under scoreboard pressure. Up 50 at 3QT in the QF and should've easily won the PF by more kicking 10.20.

When you keep quality teams like Geelong 09, Collingwood 10, Hawthorn 13 in the game then they can break you with a good quarter or even a 5-10 minute burst. St Kilda were up at every break in 2009 then lost by 2 goals because Geelong kicked 2.1 to a rushed behind in the last 5-10 minutes. At no stage were Geelong ever under meaningful scoreboard pressure.

Sure. But you have to be IN the finals to lose them... and if you believe in a good defence and defensive pressure as a key (and recent history would suggest this is a key factor for success), and it gets you to the GF, then it's hard to criticise too much when you fall at the final hurdle. Certainly take the point about scoreboard pressure, but not many sides have been successful by planning to win shootouts with overly aggressive offensive football, either. All those teams you name were standouts for the defensive pressure they brought as well.

 

[zacaxel1975]

I think often, people forget there are other positions at footy clubs, list managers, foir managers etc.

That’s his problem right there, he has always surrounded himself with way too many foir managers.

I agree he has always been too defensive and stuck with it to the very end. At some stage after half time he needed to pull the trigger and open the game up. He certainly had the players at the saints that should have been able to move the balk quickly and score heavily, but they were just stifled by the game plan.

 

[CrowsFlag2018]

The Scott brothers seem to think that if you do your most shocked face at any and every decision that goes against you that you will get preferential treatment going forward.

 

[Sylvia Saint]

I wonder, how much does a senior coach actually do?

It's a common held belief that the coach is a dictator who pretty much does everything and should be the first one to go if a side falls down the ladder. This was probably true in the 90s and earlier.

But these days, clubs employ up to 10 people in coaching roles (Melbourne have 8). At quarter time huddles, players spend the majority of time with line coaches. I remember Shaun Burgoyne winning the game for Hawthorn in the last quarter a year or two back and he was asked the question, when did Clarko make the call to move him there. His answer, he didn't! Burgoyne went in there himself.

Then there's the Richmond situation. Hardwick was almost unemployable outside of Richmond 12 months ago, they went and replaced all the assistants and voila, they win a flag!

Do we hold senior coaches too accountable?

 

[Back One Out]

I've never understood he criticism of coaches such as Ross Lyon, who didn't 'play the kids' or 'develop the list'.

When I look at the cycle St Kilda were in, i can find a reason why they wouldn't put their best team out on the park while their window for a premiership was open. In fact, historically many teams who have managed to keep form up and limit injuries have been succesful.

Same with Freo, chasing a flag and played the best available accordingly to try and get there.

There is a whole match selection committee which most seem to ignore and foot the blame for list development to the coach.

Any other common coaching misconceptions out there?

I don't think it's purely a matter of selection and not playing the kids. The criticism of whether Ross Lyon can develop a list is also about his defensive gameplan.

Twice, he's proven he can get a reasonably talented under-performing group of footballers to buy into his methods. The results have been spectacular. The Saints and Dockers were mid-table teams who became the stingiest in the comp and rocketed into the Top 4, making Grand Finals within 2-3 years of Lyon taking the reins and going VERY close to winning the flag.

Lyon kept both those teams in premiership contention for about 3 seasons and then they've fallen away, leading people to wonder if maybe players get a bit fatigued with his message and lose the fun in playing his dour style.

I don't know about all of that. That's just the theory I hear from some in the media. Maybe there is some truth in it.

Can young footballers develop into AFL players if they aren't given the chance to play on instincts, but have their heads filled with defensive tactics and zone responsibilities and then get berated by the coach if they make mental errors? Part of developing young footballers is to build their confidence and put them in a position to succeed. If the coach loses faith in a kid's ability to stick to the gameplan and drops him, then I can't imagine it would be good for the kid's confidence.

 

[gavaniacono]

Good vs evil.
Heaven vs hell.
Solar vs lunar.
Dionysus vs christ.
Dimma vs Ross.
**** vs flat champagne.

 

[Superstar swan]

Im really not sure what line coaches do....wtf could henry playfair teach buddy ?

 

[mike123]

It was the players that lost. Not Lyon. If you need that much coaching on GF day then you’re in trouble as a player.

May as well not have coaches and just let the players play

 

[Luv_our_club]

Lyon inherited a list at the Saints that was expected to make grand finals. Nick Del Santo says that if you were not in the best 25 players then Ross Lyon didn't really care to know you.

 

[demondavey]

May as well not have coaches and just let the players play

When it comes to a GF, my point is at that point in a season you’re not learning anything new. You can’t blame a coach for a GF * up.

I think you’ve gone a bit extreme there.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

I've never understood he criticism of coaches such as Ross Lyon, who didn't 'play the kids' or 'develop the list'.

When I look at the cycle St Kilda were in, i can find a reason why they wouldn't put their best team out on the park while their window for a premiership was open. In fact, historically many teams who have managed to keep form up and limit injuries have been succesful.

Same with Freo, chasing a flag and played the best available accordingly to try and get there.

There is a whole match selection committee which most seem to ignore and foot the blame for list development to the coach.

Any other common coaching misconceptions out there?

I think one of the many criticisms of Lyon was that he recruited, and played unskilled and average footballers to very limited roles in a football team.

This is what slaughtered their list eventually.