Coaching

[theGav56]

Would love to hear comments about perceptions of the coaching for this year as an ongoing discussion point. It was highlighted last year as being the thing that would stop us winning a premiership while Connolly was there. So far I have been underwhelmed by Harvey. Last year he trod water, which is fair enough. Then he opted for some conservative draft selections, especially Johnson. This year he has begun with ultra-conservative team selections, and we have been roundly commentated on as having poor skills and lack of pace through the midfield. Notably, the obvious "alternative" selections in Ibbotson and Palmer have both skill and pace.

It is too difficult for me to comment on gameday coaching, and I welcome others opinions on how the coaches are travelling.

 

[Sman-21]

If he wants to be succesful he needs to coach the same way he played.

Tough an uncompromising.

Needs to make harsh calls on a few of the older guys cant just reward them with games on effort alone.

Also He needed to take grover off Rocca
Every year grover struggles against the big strong forwards theres only 3 or 4 of them in comp.
Instead of leaving him on him, Mcpharlin or one of our other tall defenders should have been put on him.

So far harvey has been as soft as connolly
but its round 1 an he said he will give them 1 last chance lets hope he has the guts to follow through with that.

 

[sumavich]

Ummm it is only Round 1. Its not the coaches fault our boys played as a team of individuals and not as a team.
But, he's quite close to a couple of blokes i.e. Solly, Tazz and Johnson.
He'll need to make some hard decisions this year on probably all of them.
That's going to be where he's tested, particularly with Tarrant.
He just doesn't give enough.

 

[theGav56]

Ummm it is only Round 1. Its not the coaches fault our boys played as a team of individuals and not as a team.
But, he's quite close to a couple of blokes i.e. Solly, Tazz and Johnson.
He'll need to make some hard decisions this year on probably all of them.
That's going to be where he's tested, particularly with Tarrant.
He just doesn't give enough.

Just checked sumavich, and it is the coaches role to get them playing as team.

 

[Lach72]

Ummm it is only Round 1. Its not the coaches fault our boys played as a team of individuals and not as a team.
But, he's quite close to a couple of blokes i.e. Solly, Tazz and Johnson.
He'll need to make some hard decisions this year on probably all of them.
That's going to be where he's tested, particularly with Tarrant.
He just doesn't give enough.

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[Ripper]

Been underwhelming so far.

Our skills have got worse if anything.

I hope the tail is still not wagging the dog.

It appears that way from the round 1 selections.

Interestingly D.J. was on the radio getting interviewed after the game and gave Ibbo & Palmer a big wrap.

Round 2 selections will tell us a lot I reckon.

 

[sumavich]

Just checked sumavich, and it is the coaches role to get them playing as team.

I meant after one round. If its still happeneing round 4 then there is a problem. Geelong lost the first 3 last year remember, I hope that isn't going to happen to us, but.
I reckon they stuffed up not playing Palmer for sure.
I think we've always been too defensive in the midfield, I want some attack. Bring in the kids that want to win the ball, not stop their opponent and that be the only role they play. We'll never win anything like that.

 

[dominguez]

It seems very strange to me that two guys who supported a shit coach through thick and thin are turning on Harvey after one game. Everyone knew that Connolly was a loser at the end of 2005, by persevering with him for 2 years too long it made the job of the next coach much harder because it affected the culture of the club.

You criticise the draft selections Gav, but three of the young blokes selected last year are a very good chance to debut in their first year and look to have a big future. Compare that to Clown Connolly, who only retained our first pick in 2 of 6 drafts. How many players are left from the 2001-2006 drafts?

Regardless of how Harvey goes in 2008 he's a better coach than Connolly because he hasn't traded our future to save his job. We talk about the PR machine at the club up the road, but the Con Regan medal affair was ****ing disgrace. Talk about trying to paint a sinner as a saint.

 

[Ripper]

Its eight games and a pre season now Dom.

Called it how I have seen it .

Have our skills got worse?

Draft picks are a diversion on your part , they certainly have nothing to do with playing the young blokes on the list now who have shown form in this pre season.

I just hope that things change quickly.

 

[malpaso]

Poor game by the players and some shuffling of the forward line would have helped.

A round 1 game loss away, as has been said next week against Hawthorn will tell us a lot.

I suspect Macca and Tarrant to be dropped for Palmer and Murphy.

 

[dominguez]

Its eight games and a pre season now Dom.

And we're 4 and 4 in those 8 games. 3 of the sides played in pre-lims last year and one of the others finished top four last year.

How many times in the last 4 years have we been right in it at 3/4 time then played crap in the final quarter? I'd say atleast a dozen times.

Called it how I have seen it .

That's good. But why start calling a spade a spade now?

Have our skills got worse?

Wouldn't say worse, but haven't seen any improvement.

The guys who can get it can't kick and the guys who can kick can't win their own footy which is a concern.

Draft picks are a diversion on your part , they certainly have nothing to do with playing the young blokes on the list now who have shown form in this pre season.

I just find it strange to be so critical of team selections once in 4 years. Schofield springs to mind as one player who was picked in an attempt to warrant his recruitment in the past.

My point with the draft picks is that I'd rather have Palmer/Mayne/Hinkley on the list but playing WAFL than Edgecumb/Doswell, Copping/Stribling/Haines, or Mourish/Collard/Brock as our draft selections. Picking young blokes and persevering with them is the key, not picking up blokes who are being shopped around by rival clubs.

Harvey's selection of Macca and Matt Carr was a mistake but those two despised Connolly. Harvey probably thought they'd give a good account of themselves after a summer under a new mentor.

I just hope that things change quickly.

So do I. It's a huge game Saturday night.

 

[Ripper]

Dom , I have always blamed the players more so than the coach.

Some people reckoned that changing the coach would suddenly transform the list into one that would suddenly want to play for the coach / go in harder / etc etc and all our problems would be solvered.

I have nothing to see any of that so far , unfortunately.

I really hoped you blokes were right and I was wrong.

That was our worst loss against the pies at the MCG since 2003.

Time to weed out the old boys that are past their use by date.

 

[dominguez]

Fair enough Ripper.

I think we have plenty of talented players and a very good list but the blend is a problem.

If we were to have a fire sale 90% of our list would be picked up by other clubs.

But we don't have enough players who win their own footy. We don't have enough outside players with good pace and skills. We don't have enough defenders who can be counted on to shut out a quality opponent.

I also think we have too many nice guys. Introverts who go into their shells when things don't go to plan. How many elite athletes across a range of sports come across as arrogant w***ers? That self belief is very important.

If the mix of players is a problem then surely that can also be blamed on the previous administration? How long have we been trying to turn players into midfielders? That's certainly not Harvey's fault.

 

[Nodgey]

Gotta admit I was disappointed we went into this game with only 1 ruckman.

Was even more disappointed to see that Michael Johnson did the backup work instead of Gilmore. Has Johnno done any rucking this pre-season?

Gilmore was serviceable today, and did ok on Cloke, but Johnno could have done the job on Cloke allowing Gilly to move into the middle.

It was poor coaching IMO. Gilly did not contest 1 ruck knock! IIRC...

On the other hand, I liked seeng Elvis in the forward 50. Good move. If Drum can hold down a key position down back, I'd very VERY much like to see Elvis as the permanent 3rd tall forward.

 

[Ysaye]

Fair enough Ripper.
I think we have plenty of talented players and a very good list but the blend is a problem.

I'd agree with that statement. A lot of our good players are similar in type and we are missing particular types.

If we were to have a fire sale 90% of our list would be picked up by other clubs.

Not sure about that statement. There are a lot of players on the list who would not go to other clubs because their age would be a liability. People sing the praises of guys like Hayden and Grover, but remember they are around 27/28 or so this year and getting on a bit in terms of drafting and list management. We also tend to rate guys like Murphy and Campbell a bit too much IMO.

But we don't have enough players who win their own footy. We don't have enough outside players with good pace and skills. We don't have enough defenders who can be counted on to shut out a quality opponent.

Yep I agree with that, except the defenders bit. I think our defenders are pretty good, except the amount of ball going into our forward fifty overwhelms them at times.

I also think we have too many nice guys. Introverts who go into their shells when things don't go to plan. How many elite athletes across a range of sports come across as arrogant w***ers? That self belief is very important.

Not sure about the nice guys bit, but we do lack the daring and positive belief. Our midfielders don't back themselves to kick goals from around fifty; or maybe they don't have the skill. The coach can have an influence on this by backing guys that play in a daring manner; this can sometimes rub off on other players. I guess that was my reason for wanting Palmer to play; he plays like he wants to kick the goals himself.

If the mix of players is a problem then surely that can also be blamed on the previous administration? How long have we been trying to turn players into midfielders? That's certainly not Harvey's fault.

Fair enough about the list, but obviously guys like David Mundy, Michael Johnson and Daniel Gilmore are still being groomed as midfielders, post Connolly, and Mark Johnson and Dean Solomon played have played there a bit as well.

 

[purpleman]

Chris for what it's worth managed to get us to a preliminary final with a group less talented on paper that what we currently have. I personally liked him however thought that Harvey was a revelation.

I am by no means bagging our coach after one real game however he does need to show the courage of his convictions, and i agree coach how he played; in an uncompromising manner.

I cant wait to see him do that, as i believe this will be the making of our great club.

 

[Ysaye]

Chris for what it's worth managed to get us to a preliminary final with a group less talented on paper that what we currently have. I personally liked him however thought that Harvey was a revelation.

I am by no means bagging our coach after one real game however he does need to show the courage of his convictions, and i agree coach how he played; in an uncompromising manner.
I cant wait to see him do that, as i believe this will be the making of our great club.

So what does the uncompromising coach do for next week? Is it, as everyone is suggesting, drop M.Carr, plus a couple of others? Personally I fell that is a compromise. I don't know about other supporters, but there was a fair few performances today that (Even though some made up for these in other areas within the game) fell below a standard in skills that I think is required to be a really successful team at AFL level. They probably included:

Mathew Carr
Josh Carr
Chris Tarrant
Michael Johnson
Brett Peake
Byron Schammer
Daniel Gilmore
Mark Johnson
*Roger Hayden (Generally very good but he should NOT have gone of the line kicking out; inexcusable skill at this level)

McManus was probably borderline as well.

But now that is more than half the team. You can't drop them all can you? But for me uncompromising is about setting a standard. Those players fell below my standard and under an uncompromising system need to be sent back to the WAFL (or in Rogers case banished from kick-ins would probably suffice).

 

[purpleman]

A lot of the guys that are being talked about are carry overs from last season, and Macca has to be top of the list. Yes he still gives it 100%, but i could run out next week and give 100% and still be below par (in my case well below par). This isn't acceptable for players that are at the end of there careers we need to be looking to the future.

 

[wehavethepassion]

Is there unity?

German on Peerah after game conceded that they were slow and the coaching staff were surprised that Colon wood had 90 rotations off the bench and that the players posters have been mentioning here should be into the side soon rather than later.

Harvey on the other hand at is press conference said that only minimal changes needed.

 

[Ripper]

Is there unity?

German on Peerah after game conceded that they were slow and the coaching staff were surprised that Colon wood had 90 rotations off the bench and that the players posters have been mentioning here should be into the side soon rather than later.

Harvey on the other hand at is press conference said that only minimal changes needed.

Those statement aren't necessarily at odds with one another.

2-3 changes is minimal and happens more often than not.

 

[markfarmer]

Its same old Problem for the last 4 years //// for Feks sake

ENTRY INTO THE 50
ENTRY INTO THE 50
ENTRY INTO THE 50

They always kick TO THE PLAYER(pav), when they should kick to the LEAD OF THE PLAYER..

Kick to SPACE.To the lead for the forward to run onto....FOR FEKS SAKE..

There are only a few on the Team that do this with the knowledge.......
Soloman, Farmer, Haze(), Webster, Pav AND ?

Also after we bomb it in and it hits the ground....we always lose out...We need better crumbers....Put Farmer up to half Forward/Mid...and put the rabid dog Shammer to Crumb it out to a teamate... I don't really think Jeff gets into the right position for the crumbs....

ANYWAY, This needs to be the MAIN FOCUS AT TRAINING/COACHING UNTIL ITS FIXED AND FUNCTIONAL...It is losing us GAMES..

 

[Nodgey]

Just saw Harves on chanel 7 also expressing surprise at Collingwood's 90 or so rotations, compared to our 60 odd.

It's surpising that we would be so lacking in this area, seeing as it was Freo (under Connolly) who pioneered this aspect of the game.

I reckon the coaching staff will have learnt a lot from this game:
1) youth and pace required
2) always take 2 ruckmen into a game
3) rest your key runners with rotations through the bench
4) McPharlin is still a better forward than Murph and Kiwi
5) we really miss Hase

 

[Sman-21]

Yep the game is changing it has become a runners game over the last few years
We have none.

Same has happened in rugby league everyone wanted the wingers an backline players to get bigger an stronger now the guys doing well in them positions seem to be the younger skinnier more agile quick players.

Same is starting to happen in Rugby union aswell.

Connelly was a laughing stock when he first started making around 50 subs a game, all the older style coaches an media thought it was crazy.
Now every club does it and it works for them.

But if we are going to sub a slow small midfielder for another slow small midfielder it gains us nothing we need variety in our midfield.

Connelly has a great football brain an will be a awesome assistant coach, he just is too soft to be a head coach.

 

[dockers_bengals]

Just saw Harves on chanel 7 also expressing surprise at Collingwood's 90 or so rotations, compared to our 60 odd.

It's surpising that we would be so lacking in this area, seeing as it was Freo (under Connolly) who pioneered this aspect of the game.

I reckon the coaching staff will have learnt a lot from this game:
1) youth and pace required
2) always take 2 ruckmen into a game
3) rest your key runners with rotations through the bench
4) McPharlin is still a better forward than Murph and Kiwi
5) we really miss Hase

Tired players make mistakes but I don't think that was the problem.
If you took Gilmore off cloke he would of killed Johnson,too slow off the mark and less body strength.
On coaching they had to pick the team they did but as said they have learnt more and now we will see the consequences.I thought this was our worse game at tackling.

 

[dominguez]

I'd agree with that statement. A lot of our good players are similar in type and we are missing particular types.

It was a mistake IMO to retain Murphy and to recruit Kepler. We now have Murphy, Bradley and Campbell jostling for at most one spot in the 22.

The same applies with Mundy, Michael Johnson and Drum. Three tall blokes with obvious ability who all play their best footy as the loose man in defence is excessive when we lack true midfielders.

Not sure about that statement. There are a lot of players on the list who would not go to other clubs because their age would be a liability. People sing the praises of guys like Hayden and Grover, but remember they are around 27/28 or so this year and getting on a bit in terms of drafting and list management. We also tend to rate guys like Murphy and Campbell a bit too much IMO.

Grover and Hayden would definately be picked up. They are inform AFL players with atleast 3 seasons infront of them. Mark Johnson probably has one season left and we gave him a go after spending time in the VFL.

Webster, Browne, Mark Johnson, Bell, McManus, Matt Carr and Bradley are the only players who spring to mind who wouldn't be looked at by rival clubs.

IIRC 4 clubs enquired about Murphy during trade week last year, he'd be in some clubs best 22.

Yep I agree with that, except the defenders bit. I think our defenders are pretty good, except the amount of ball going into our forward fifty overwhelms them at times.

Rocca kicked 6 yesterday. Grover does a good job fighting out of his weight division but the big forwards have had some success against us lately.

Not sure about the nice guys bit, but we do lack the daring and positive belief. Our midfielders don't back themselves to kick goals from around fifty; or maybe they don't have the skill. The coach can have an influence on this by backing guys that play in a daring manner; this can sometimes rub off on other players. I guess that was my reason for wanting Palmer to play; he plays like he wants to kick the goals himself.

Yep.

Fair enough about the list, but obviously guys like David Mundy, Michael Johnson and Daniel Gilmore are still being groomed as midfielders, post Connolly, and Mark Johnson and Dean Solomon played have played there a bit as well.

But Mundy, Johnson and Gilmore are being groomed as midfielders through necessity because Harvey can only work with the players he has inherited. We needed to draft more mids from 2001-2006.