Collingwood’s Josh Thomas, Lachie Keeffe accept two-year bans for taking banned drug clenbuterol

the PILL

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I do not often post in these forums but there is a lot of pseudo science and misinformation being thrown around these forums about Clenbuterol.

I have a medical background and have had a look into some of the evidence behind Clenbuterol and performance enhancement.

First off Clenbuterol is an oral beta-2 agonist. At it's core, although with varied pharmacokinetics, it has similar properties as Salbutamol or Ventolin as it is more commonly known. Ventolin is used for it's bronchodilator effect, that is opening of the smooth muscle in the airways to help with breathing during asthma flares. The benefits of a puffer is that it has localised action with minimal systemic effect. However, most people who have had Ventolin would recognise there is some systemic absorption that manifests as tachycardia or feelings of agitation. Clenbuterol has this effect on a systemic level creating a sympathomimetic effect that is quite similar to that of cocaine. This includes tachycardia, heightened levels of anxiety and increased basal metabolic rate. Given this I'm not why it's so difficult to understand why it would be cut with cocaine to mimic or propagate its effects.

Furthermore, Clenbuterol is used mainly for management of asthma in horses, as the coordination required for effective inhalation of inhaled beta-agonists would make it impractical as a management tool. As I'm sure you can appreciate this makes it not only legal in Australia but readily accessible for anyone that has contacts in either the horse racing industry or veterinary clinics but also large quantities given equine dosing is substantial compared to that in humans. Cocaine on the other hand comes exclusively from the coca plant and therefore must be imported from regions such as South America. Pragmatically you can imagine why it would be easier to cut with Clenbuterol then to access large amounts of cocaine.

Finally, discussing Clenbuterol as a performance enhancer for athletes is not as clear cut as it may seem. Although it is proven to have some anabolic effects in certain muscle groups within different species, there is limited proof that this directly leads to performance enhancement. I found one trial in 1995 that concluded it could not confirm muscle enhancement in young men or athletic performance enhancement in young men. There have also been studies that it does not increase performance in horses but actually decreases aerobic capabilities. I will post links to these studies below. Although the animal model is not direct, the ethics of control trials in humans means we might see the testing required to give us a good answer. Having said that its potential to promote muscle growth is definitely enough to warrant a ban on WADAs list.

So given this, it makes a lot of sense to cut Clenbuterol with cocaine. The way the Collingwood team handled this situation I actually found to be very open, accountable and professional. Maybe it's this that is so 'unpalatable' for certain football fans.

Links:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/7711351/

http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/12471305

I'm impressed you reworded some articles to support your argument but I dont buy it and how very convenient there is no sample to coroberate this supposed slam dunk of what happened...

So, l will leave you with one question. Was there a positive benzoylecgonine metabolite to accompany this positive Clenbuterol result you seem to know is an absolute...?
 

Cake Walker

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I'm impressed you reworded some articles to support your argument but I dont buy it and how very convenient there is no sample to coroberate this supposed slam dunk of what happened...

So, l will leave you with one question. Was there a positive benzoylecgonine metabolite to accompany this positive Clenbuterol result you seem to know is an absolute...?

I obviously don't know, neither would anyone. I'm not familiar if they test for cocaine substrates in PED testing. However, I would assume as it's considered an illicit drug and give the AFL drug policies, it would be a confidential strike that isn't permitted to be divulged under the AFL's 3 strike policy.

I was merely saying that dismissing it as non-sensical seems quite irrational and reactionary. By presenting some more objective information, it might try and rationalise why Keefe and Thomas' stories rather than branding them as intentional drug cheats.

Next time I'll just try making things up and using lots of capitals and emoticons rather than attempt to provide evidence. Apologies.
 

Cake Walker

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I also just had a look at urinary excretion of each of Clenbuterol vs benzoylecgonine. Clenbuterol can be present at 14 days while cocaine substrates are typically 4-5 days, so the absence of matching samples is very likely to be related to timing.

The other thing I noticed in the press conference is they were quite careful not to hint at the elicit substance meaning something like an amphetamine based substance is also a potential cause, although given the production of MDMA, makes it less likely to be cut with other adrenergic compounds.
 

Gollo

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Really? Are there sources for this? I did a quick search and could only find one story which appears entirely based off one player busted for it in 2009 who claimed it was probably cut with an illicit drug...seems pretty flimsy.

Same story has Doc Larkins correcting them to say that the city gym scene is where it's found.

Pretty sure anyone making or selling coke is doing it for money. Why bother sourcing this anabolic drug to cut it with? And why not sell it to the gym junkies if they already had it and cut the coke with something cheap?

Pretty naive to think players wouldn't prefer to get busted with coke. Yeah that might make them stupid in some eyes, party animals or even cool in other eyes. But a proffesional sports person deliberately taking performance enhancing drugs equals a cheater to nearly everyone.


This was the story I found
http://m.3aw.com.au/news/collingwood-drug-scandal-how-you-can-get-clenbuterol-20150330-1mbjkz.html
I guess it's a bit up in the unknown, but I don't see any point in them lying about how they got it. Just gonna go with what they say IMO.
 

Muggs

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The players themselves did not categorically say they got it from illicit drugs. Listen/read statements

But they did admit to taking illicit drugs, and said its the most likely source.. Unless they can track down the supplier to get a sample from the same batch to test or manufacturer to testify how they cut it it never be proven for sure that was the source, but anyone want to bet against it?
 
I also just had a look at urinary excretion of each of Clenbuterol vs benzoylecgonine. Clenbuterol can be present at 14 days while cocaine substrates are typically 4-5 days, so the absence of matching samples is very likely to be related to timing.

The other thing I noticed in the press conference is they were quite careful not to hint at the elicit substance meaning something like an amphetamine based substance is also a potential cause, although given the production of MDMA, makes it less likely to be cut with other adrenergic compounds.

Here's a good site that gives a very good rundown of Clen. You'll notice clen is very popular among body builders.

http://www.steroid.com/Clenbuterol.php
 
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stewie dew

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Gary Pert didn't have much to say when asked if powder or yesterday at press conference, moved on quickly
 
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Gary Pert didn't have much to say when asked if powder or yesterday at press conference, moved on quickly
are you kidding me? Didn't he deliver a lengthy diatribe about how "any" drug could contain PEDs?

IMHO it's blatantly obvious what's going on here and it's 100% PR.

The boys took their gear to get in shape, as you do. That's what Clem's for, let's face it. Got done. A very hasty war meeting between various parties formulated the coke story, it was road-tested if you'll recall, got serious traction. From that moment on they ran with it hard. Serves 3 purposes.

1) gives the players public sympathy and best chance at a fresh start when they've done their time

2) keeps the AFL out of the papers for yet another PED scandal

3) allows them to crack down further on illicit drugs and reduce bad press of strikes etc by using a boogie man of them ("any drug") being mixed with PEDs that players are terrified about, so they actually have consequences, even if it's a load of crap in reality
 

Chameleon75

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http://m.theage.com.au/afl/collingw...o-excuse-for-clenbuterol-20150417-1mngnt.html

It's stated here that McDevitt seems to believe it's one of the substances used regularly. I'm assuming there is some evidence, even anecdotal behind that.

"In my policing days, from time to time, we would examine ecstasy tablets and things like that, and you would find all sorts of veterinary substances in them. They were cut with cement, all sorts of substances, so there's no quality control,"

thats his direct quote, the reference to clen was added by the journo, not by McD

worth having a look at the acc website and the reports into various drugs and their street prices, acc price pure clen at around $7k/g, not really economic as a bulking agent
 
Wow, the top hit that comes up when you Google “clenbuterol”

I see you went to Google University too. Were you in IanW’s class?
What's your point? My point is that clen is well used by meat heads at gyms. Anyone thinking it is "accidentally" used as a cutting agent for cocaine is being a little bit silly.

Oh and I pre-date (and outlast!) Ian W.
 

Cake Walker

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are you kidding me? Didn't he deliver a lengthy diatribe about how "any" drug could contain PEDs?

IMHO it's blatantly obvious what's going on here and it's 100% PR.

The boys took their gear to get in shape, as you do. That's what Clem's for, let's face it. Got done. A very hasty war meeting between various parties formulated the coke story, it was road-tested if you'll recall, got serious traction. From that moment on they ran with it hard. Serves 3 purposes.

1) gives the players public sympathy and best chance at a fresh start when they've done their time

2) keeps the AFL out of the papers for yet another PED scandal

3) allows them to crack down further on illicit drugs and reduce bad press of strikes etc by using a boogie man of them ("any drug") being mixed with PEDs that players are terrified about, so they actually have consequences, even if it's a load of crap in reality

I just think the illicit drugs story, the one that the players themselves admit to, is more plausible than a conspiracy theory involving players, lawyers and club.

I have a tough time believing that players would take a known performance enhancing drug, one that a quick google search will tell you is able to be tested in urine, intentionally.
 
I just think the illicit drugs story, the one that the players themselves admit to, is more plausible than a conspiracy theory involving players, lawyers and club.

I have a tough time believing that players would take a known performance enhancing drug, one that a quick google search will tell you is able to be tested in urine, intentionally.
Given a choice of being known for using cocaine that just happened to be laced with a WADA prohibited drug, or being known for specifically using a WADA prohibited drug, which do you think you'd choose?

As an athlete there is only one option.
 

Cake Walker

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"In my policing days, from time to time, we would examine ecstasy tablets and things like that, and you would find all sorts of veterinary substances in them. They were cut with cement, all sorts of substances, so there's no quality control,"

thats his direct quote, the reference to clen was added by the journo, not by McD

worth having a look at the acc website and the reports into various drugs and their street prices, acc price pure clen at around $7k/g, not really economic as a bulking agent

Thanks for the ACC link, it's quite interesting to read how much some of this stuff is worth.

Cocaine is about $250-1000 a gram so it could be quite economical to cut it with Clenbuterol if you want to enhance the effects of the drug while minimising the product.
 

Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods

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are you kidding me? Didn't he deliver a lengthy diatribe about how "any" drug could contain PEDs?

IMHO it's blatantly obvious what's going on here and it's 100% PR.

The boys took their gear to get in shape, as you do. That's what Clem's for, let's face it. Got done. A very hasty war meeting between various parties formulated the coke story, it was road-tested if you'll recall, got serious traction. From that moment on they ran with it hard. Serves 3 purposes.

1) gives the players public sympathy and best chance at a fresh start when they've done their time

2) keeps the AFL out of the papers for yet another PED scandal

3) allows them to crack down further on illicit drugs and reduce bad press of strikes etc by using a boogie man of them ("any drug") being mixed with PEDs that players are terrified about, so they actually have consequences, even if it's a load of crap in reality
An Essendon supporter stating what is 'blatantly obvious' without any evidence and in direct contrast to what the club and players are saying happened. Irony at its finest.
 

Cake Walker

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Collingwood
Given a choice of being known for using cocaine that just happened to be laced with a WADA prohibited drug, or being known for specifically using a WADA prohibited drug, which do you think you'd choose?

As an athlete there is only one option.

You're right that does make sense but that doesn't mean they aren't telling the truth.
 

Chameleon75

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Thanks for the ACC link, it's quite interesting to read how much some of this stuff is worth.

Cocaine is about $250-1000 a gram so it could be quite economical to cut it with Clenbuterol if you want to enhance the effects of the drug while minimising the product.

clen doesn't give the same high as coke does so it's not enhancing the product, given that clen is significantly more expensive it's cheaper to just boost the purity of the coke, better product and lower cost than adding clen.
 

Cake Walker

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clen doesn't give the same high as coke does so it's not enhancing the product, given that clen is significantly more expensive it's cheaper to just boost the purity of the coke, better product and lower cost than adding clen.

That's some unusual logic. If you have a look at one of my earlier posts there's some things about beta-agonists being adrenergic, which means they act on sympathetic pathways, producing many of the responses you would get with cocaine. So it makes sense from that perspective.

If you can use a substance that is between 1/20th to 1/150th of the cost to produce similar, although not identical effects, it makes a lot of sense I would have thought.
 

Chameleon75

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That's some unusual logic. If you have a look at one of my earlier posts there's some things about beta-agonists being adrenergic, which means they act on sympathetic pathways, producing many of the responses you would get with cocaine. So it makes sense from that perspective.

If you can use a substance that is between 1/20th to 1/150th of the cost to produce similar, although not identical effects, it makes a lot of sense I would have thought.

your ignoring that clen has an established market, it sells for a significantly higher price than coke according to the acc. if your objective is to maximise profit why would you sell a more expensive product as a cheaper one, not logical
 

Cake Walker

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your ignoring that clen has an established market, it sells for a significantly higher price than coke according to the acc. if your objective is to maximise profit why would you sell a more expensive product as a cheaper one, not logical

I'm not ignoring it, you said Clenbuterol is $7 a gram. The ACC website you quoted says cocaine is between $250-1000 a gram depending on location. Unless you've quoted me an incorrect figure on the Clenbuterol, I'm not sure where you're getting that from?
 
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I'm not ignoring it, you said Clenbuterol is $7 a gram. The ACC website you quoted says cocaine is between $250-1000 a gram depending on location. Unless you've quoted me an incorrect figure on the Clenbuterol, I'm not sure where you're getting that from?
$7k.

That's $7,000
 
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