Collingwood and its Do Better Initiative was clearly just a token PR exercise

[Noidnadroj]

Thats not really nuance. They can do all of those things and still have issues with racism (which they themselves have admitted to and have started to try and rectify).

This is like saying the catholic church has nuance around child sex offenses cause they helped alot of children (and no im not comparing the two things as direct like for like events).

Your reply here illustrates my point perfectly. You’ve made a leap comparing inappropriate racist comments and sex offences in the Catholic church…. then act like you’re not comparing them even though you just did. And that’s the problem … no nuance, just straight to the ‘CFC was a systemically racist cesspit where indigenous players were sent to suffer in silence.’


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[phantom13]

Your reply here illustrates my point perfectly. You’ve made a leap comparing inappropriate racist comments and sex offences in the Catholic church…. then act like you’re not comparing them even though you just did. And that’s the problem … no nuance, just straight to the ‘CFC was a systemically racist cesspit where indigenous players were sent to suffer in silence.’


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Yeh thats not at all what i did mate, i made the comparison for ease of reference, im not suggesting one is comparable from a severity point of view but what you are talking about isnt nuance, youre trying to say they did all this stuff so theyre not racist or theyre not as racist. If youd like a better comparison its like saying that the government has no racism because they issued an apology and have some programs to assist first nations people.

They themselves have admitted they had issues with race anyway so im not sure what nuance youre talking about.

Ive never said the club was a "systemically racist cesspit where indigenous players were sent to suffer in silence" but the report absolutely notes that there was systemic racism and that the culture didnt encourage or support reporting of it.

 

[phantom13]

Let me put it a different way (cause i might be misunderstanding your point).

Are you saying that Collingwood didnt have a problem with racism and supression of reporting on racism and culture BECAUSE they did the things you listed?

 

[Noidnadroj]

Let me put it a different way (cause i might be misunderstanding your point).

Are you saying that Collingwood didnt have a problem with racism and supression of reporting on racism and culture BECAUSE they did the things you listed?

No, racism is rife throughout society. What I’m saying is I’d suggest 99.9% of Krakouer or Lumumba’s experiences at CFC did not involve racism and was overwhelmingly positive. It doesn’t excuse the shortcomings in their procedures to deal with racism and it doesn’t mean there were not racist incidents these players were subjected to, which should be condemned and learnt from.

But a systemically racist organisation would not draft an indigenous ex-felon and would not promote a black man to their leadership group - or give them extended time off for personal leave during the season. These things don’t excuse the racist incidents that occurred, but they are not the actions of a club that remained steeped in racist attitudes or behaviours.


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[phantom13]

No, racism is rife throughout society. What I’m saying is I’d suggest 99.9% of Krakouer or Lumumba’s experiences at CFC did not involve racism and was overwhelmingly positive. It doesn’t excuse the shortcomings in their procedures to deal with racism and it doesn’t mean there were not racist incidents these players were subjected to, which should be condemned and learnt from.

But a systemically racist organisation would not draft an indigenous ex-felon and would not promote a black man to their leadership group - or give them extended time off for personal leave during the season. These things don’t excuse the racist incidents that occurred, but they are not the actions of a club that remained steeped in racist attitudes or behaviours.


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Without debating the percentage of racist incidents the target should be 0%. Which you acknowledge yourself. Ive personally never suffered from racism so i certainly am not in a position to posit how many racist incidents is reasonable to expect, but it certainly should target 0.

Youve mentioned systemic racism a few times and noted that Collingwood isnt or wasnt systemically racist. Im not sure if youve read the report but it references issues with systemic racism, quite specifically, in a few places. This is just from the Exec Summary.


"There is a gap between what Collingwood Football Club says it stands for and what it does. A selected short list of high-profile incidents is compelling and speaks to systemic racism of the kind that means the concerted efforts of individuals are not able to be translated into Club-wide change."

Collingwood themselves acknowledge systemic racism and have expressed a desire to implement the report (which i applaud) and one could argue they are ahead of the curve because of the report.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Without debating the percentage of racist incidents the target should be 0%. Which you acknowledge yourself. Ive personally never suffered from racism so i certainly am not in a position to posit how many racist incidents is reasonable to expect, but it certainly should target 0.

Youve mentioned systemic racism a few times and noted that Collingwood isnt or wasnt systemically racist. Im not sure if youve read the report but it references issues with systemic racism, quite specifically, in a few places. This is just from the Exec Summary.


"There is a gap between what Collingwood Football Club says it stands for and what it does. A selected short list of high-profile incidents is compelling and speaks to systemic racism of the kind that means the concerted efforts of individuals are not able to be translated into Club-wide change."

Collingwood themselves acknowledge systemic racism and have expressed a desire to implement the report (which i applaud) and one could argue they are ahead of the curve because of the report.

‘A selected short list of high-profile incidents’ … McAllister from the 1990’s? Monkhorst from the 1990’s. Eddie from 2014? I don’t believe these are evidence of systemic racism at all.

‘Systemic racism’ is : “when the policies and practises of institutions result in unfair treatment of some groups compared to others”.

I’m not sure if indigenous players as a group were treated any differently to non-indigenous at CFC? I’ve yet to hear of anything during Lumumba, Karakouer or Davis’s time at CFC that comes close to systemic racism.

I’ll admit I haven’t read the do better report… what actual evidence did they site to prove systemic racism from 2006 onwards? Not high profile incidents from the 1990’s …. I assume the report tabled actual incidents where indigenous players were treated unfairly by CFC because they were black. What were some of those actual incidents that happened to these players reported in the do better report to establish the systemic racism?



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[phantom13]

‘A selected short list of high-profile incidents’ … McAllister from the 1990’s? Monkhorst from the 1990’s. Eddie from 2014? I don’t believe these are evidence of systemic racism at all.

‘Systemic racism’ is : “when the policies and practises of institutions result in unfair treatment of some groups compared to others”.

I’m not sure if indigenous players as a group were treated any differently to non-indigenous at CFC? I’ve yet to hear of anything during Lumumba, Karakouer or Davis’s time at CFC that comes close to systemic racism.

I’ll admit I haven’t read the do better report… what actual evidence did they site to prove systemic racism from 2006 onwards? Not high profile incidents from the 1990’s …. I assume the report tabled actual incidents where indigenous players were treated unfairly by CFC because they were black. What were some of those actual incidents that happened to these players reported in the do better report to establish the systemic racism?



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Yeh id suggesting reading the report.

You're assigning your own definition to what is systemic racism, which is fine, but in the context of the report its beyond question that the club itself acknowledges that it had issues with systemic racism (and again, theres no way thats just Collingwood). That it doesnt fit your criteria is pretty irrelevant to the club or the players of the time and now.

Yes there are specific incidents, yes some of them are relatively recently.

On top of the specific incidents, and this is REALLY important, the club didnt support and encourage reporting on incidents, it also acknowledges that its processes to follow up and address said incidents was lacking (which one would argue is probably why Heritier spoke out at the time and might have some concerns with the process now).

 

[phantom13]

Sorry to clarify i appreciate the definition you posted is an actual defintion (not your defintion) but how you can say this line from just the exec summary


A selected short list of high-profile incidents is compelling and speaks to systemic racism of the kind that means the concerted efforts of individuals are not able to be translated into Club-wide change.

Doesnt cover this

when the policies and practises of institutions result in unfair treatment of some groups compared to others

Is really youre own interpretation of the words. Collingwood itself acknowledges that its policies and practices resulted in systemic racism.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Yeh id suggesting reading the report.

You're assigning your own definition to what is systemic racism, which is fine, but in the context of the report its beyond question that the club itself acknowledges that it had issues with systemic racism (and again, theres no way thats just Collingwood). That it doesnt fit your criteria is pretty irrelevant to the club or the players of the time and now.

Yes there are specific incidents, yes some of them are relatively recently.

On top of the specific incidents, and this is REALLY important, the club didnt support and encourage reporting on incidents, it also acknowledges that its processes to follow up and address said incidents was lacking (which one would argue is probably why Heritier spoke out at the time and might have some concerns with the process now).

So the ‘Do Better Report’ provides no actual examples in the last 15-years that constitute systemic racism?

And if you want to argue that there are no actual examples because Collingwood did not support or encourage the reporting of incidents, then it’s my understanding the Do Better Report recommended a truth telling process where Lumumba, Krakouer, Davis and any other victims are able to finally tell their truth to get to the bottom of the systemic racism to effect change.

But those players now refuse to participate in the truth telling process recommended by the Do Better Report.

So where do we end up? With a report that could not provide any examples of systemic racism in the last 15-years, and a group of victims who refuse to provide any actual examples of systemic racism they were subjected to.

I can’t understand what motivation Lumumba, Davis, Krakouer and others have for remaining silent on their mistreatment now they finally have the chance to expose it via a safe and independent process without fear of consequences inflicted by their coach or President. Particularly Lumumba who lives overseas and has audio tapes as proof garnered over 10-years.

He has called for change for years, and when time comes to participate in effecting change in a meaningful way with independent bodies he releases 90-seconds of audio condemning Buckley and says “I’m done”.


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[Chief]

There's no reason that being in a minority group should shield someone from the same level of skepticism.

Or stop you seeing the evidence in front of you.

 

[phantom13]

So the ‘Do Better Report’ provides no actual examples in the last 15-years that constitute systemic racism?

And if you want to argue that there are no actual examples because Collingwood did not support or encourage the reporting of incidents, then it’s my understanding the Do Better Report recommended a truth telling process where Lumumba, Krakouer, Davis and any other victims are able to finally tell their truth to get to the bottom of the systemic racism to effect change.

But those players now refuse to participate in the truth telling process recommended by the Do Better Report.

So where do we end up? With a report that could not provide any examples of systemic racism in the last 15-years, and a group of victims who refuse to provide any actual examples of systemic racism they were subjected to.

I can’t understand what motivation Lumumba, Davis, Krakouer and others have for remaining silent on their mistreatment now they finally have the chance to expose it via a safe and independent process without fear of consequences inflicted by their coach or President. Particularly Lumumba who lives overseas and has audio tapes as proof garnered over 10-years.

He has called for change for years, and when time comes to participate in effecting change in a meaningful way with independent bodies he releases 90-seconds of audio condemning Buckley and says “I’m done”.


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I think the most recent incident referenced was 2013 so that would be 9 years ago (again, id encourage you to read the report, especially if youre going to continue to reference it).

It does recommend the truth telling process but those players (victims) are not obligated to be involved (and Collingwood is not obligated to pursue them if they decline to be involved).

The report provides examples as recently as 9 years ago AND has specific examples which can be used to educate and reform the club (which the club has committed to).

Its not really for you or i to understand the motivations of victims of racism to not want to be involved in the process for reform for the club that allowed the racism to happen and its really odd to suggest that its incumbent upon them to do so.

Perhaps they havent healed, perhaps they dont believe the process is anymore than a PR exercise, perhaps they have moved on. It really doesnt make any difference. They have no obligation to.

Heritier (and others) tried to implement change by following the process of the club and the AFL for years and not only didnt get anywhere but also got vilified and ridiculed for doing so.

Heritier in particular is now trying to implement broader change in his own way (with his story and his tapes). You might not like, hell i might not really like it BUT im also acutely aware of the fact that it is just idiotic for me to suggest that i would do it better or differently. Unless youve been in his position im not really sure what good critiquing the fact that he no longer wants to be involved in the clubs process does.

You can all at once appreciate the efforts Collingwood is making to improve AND understand that past victims might not be keen to be a part of the process.

 

[ExcitementMachine]

Without debating the percentage of racist incidents the target should be 0%. Which you acknowledge yourself. Ive personally never suffered from racism so i certainly am not in a position to posit how many racist incidents is reasonable to expect, but it certainly should target 0.

Youve mentioned systemic racism a few times and noted that Collingwood isnt or wasnt systemically racist. Im not sure if youve read the report but it references issues with systemic racism, quite specifically, in a few places. This is just from the Exec Summary.


"There is a gap between what Collingwood Football Club says it stands for and what it does. A selected short list of high-profile incidents is compelling and speaks to systemic racism of the kind that means the concerted efforts of individuals are not able to be translated into Club-wide change."

Collingwood themselves acknowledge systemic racism and have expressed a desire to implement the report (which i applaud) and one could argue they are ahead of the curve because of the report.

 

[Noidnadroj]

I think the most recent incident referenced was 2013 so that would be 9 years ago (again, id encourage you to read the report, especially if youre going to continue to reference it).

It does recommend the truth telling process but those players (victims) are not obligated to be involved (and Collingwood is not obligated to pursue them if they decline to be involved).

The report provides examples as recently as 9 years ago AND has specific examples which can be used to educate and reform the club (which the club has committed to).

Its not really for you or i to understand the motivations of victims of racism to not want to be involved in the process for reform for the club that allowed the racism to happen and its really odd to suggest that its incumbent upon them to do so.

Perhaps they havent healed, perhaps they dont believe the process is anymore than a PR exercise, perhaps they have moved on. It really doesnt make any difference. They have no obligation to.

Heritier (and others) tried to implement change by following the process of the club and the AFL for years and not only didnt get anywhere but also got vilified and ridiculed for doing so.

Heritier in particular is now trying to implement broader change in his own way (with his story and his tapes). You might not like, hell i might not really like it BUT im also acutely aware of the fact that it is just idiotic for me to suggest that i would do it better or differently. Unless youve been in his position im not really sure what good critiquing the fact that he no longer wants to be involved in the clubs process does.

You can all at once appreciate the efforts Collingwood is making to improve AND understand that past victims might not be keen to be a part of the process.

So Eddie and the King Kong gaffe was 9-years ago? Not evidence of systemic racism, just a stupid and inappropriate racist comment. Is Adelaide systemically racist because of Walker’s comment?

Sorry to back over this, I should read the report. But can you confirm that the Do Better Report does not provide an example from Lumumba’s time at the club to establish that the CFC was systemically racist as an organisation?

The report either has actual examples or it doesn’t.


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[PremiershipTigers]

If Ginnivan didn't have the most punchable head in footy then he does now if the rumor/story is true

Have you seen it mentioned on here? Only place I saw it was FB, so don't know how credible the claim is

 

[Chief]

But can you confirm that the Do Better Report does not provide an example from Lumumba’s time at the club to establish that the CFC was systemically racist as an organisation?

Systemic racism doesn't mean the whole organisation is racist.

This seems to be a theme: people taking the idea of systemic racism as a personal accusation of racism.

There is no doubt that people in the organisation think they have individually done nothing wrong. At the same time, they can understand that their processes are inadequate, and have produced systemic racism.

This can be, from what I understand, caused by having no mechanism in place to take complaints, evaluate them, mediate between parties, and implement changes in policy and practice if they are needed.

So a player seeing racism in the change rooms or on the field has no clear line of authority to appeal to. A player accused has no clear way of arguing their case.

It's complicated, and I have no experience in it apart from a unit on cultural change management in Uni many, many years ago. The most I remember is the exam for that course, before which I had accidentally squirted on too much cologne and sat through it in a cloud of male-perfume.

And of course there is my amateur efforts on this site over the years with our roster of moderators and a couple of hundred thousand registered users.

 

[phantom13]

So Eddie and the King Kong gaffe was 9-years ago? Not evidence of systemic racism, just a stupid and inappropriate racist comment. Is Adelaide systemically racist because of Walker’s comment?

Sorry to back over this, I should read the report. But can you confirm that the Do Better Report does not provide an example from Lumumba’s time at the club to establish that the CFC was systemically racist as an organisation?

The report either has actual examples or it doesn’t.


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The report has specific examples of racist behaviour (the King Kong “gaffe” as you put it being one). Those examples demonstrate racist behaviour and the culture and processes that did not support players speaking out on said behaviour make it systemic. You’re implying that only having racist incidents (which your diminishing) means it’s not systemic but the oppression and lack of support to report and implement change (which again, the report acknowledges) is what makes it systemic.

I would assume that all clubs have been systemically racist, no one likes facing their own history. The Tex incident was reported and the club actioned it, sanctioned him and counselled players. I’m not an expert nor am I commissioned to complete a report so I can’t really speak to more than that but there not really the same for comparisons sake.

Again mate, it’s not my report, it’s Collingwoods (independently) and it calls itself systemically racist, thats really not up for debate. That you think that the report (which you’ve not even read) doesn’t equate to systemic racism is irrelevant.

 

[Noidnadroj]

I just read the report and I’m not sure what to make of it…. I’d prefer actual examples of how the indigenous players were mistreated at CFC - which isn’t covered other than to say reporting procedures were not appropriate and complaints were not taken seriously enough. This is not acceptable and I’m happy to accept change at CFC was needed to better manage racism. (Although the report is mischievous when it recounts how HL was removed from the leadership group soon after the Eddie ‘under the bus’ issue ….. despite it being on the record that HL requested to step down from the leadership group and was never stood down - the report clearly didn’t want that to be the narrative).

My main gripe is that Lumumba has been calling for people to hear his ‘truth’ for years. He has been wanting those in positions of power at CFC to be held accountable. He has called for change and wanted to be part of that change as a beacon for cultural change. I don’t think it’s a stretch to suggest they seemed to be his wants and motivations over many years.

Thanks to HL an independent review was conducted and the Do Better Report citing systemic racism was produced. An important part of this was the ‘truth telling’ process that finally provided HL with a platform - carried out in a safe space with no recriminations - to voice his concerns and details of his racist mistreatment at CFC to help effect the change he’d been desperately calling for…. and he refuses to be involved.

Sorry to be cynical, but when you’ve finally got the platform to air your grievances that have clearly plagued him for so long… and he doesn’t want to air those grievances to the body engaged to make meaningful change at CFC… but happily releases audio on Twitter .. …. it makes me wonder if HL probably doesn’t have a great deal to say and I question his motivations.

But that’s just my opinion and may be way off the
mark. ATEOTD if Collingwood does improve its race relations and other clubs follow suit the ends will justify the means … however that outcome was reached.



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[phantom13]

You can surely also acknowledge that Heritier may not wish to be involved in the process given the treatment he feels he recieved and how he feels he was dismissed by the club? You don’t have to agree with that but you can surely acknowledge it.

 

[Kram]

I would assume that all clubs have been systemically racist, no one likes facing their own history.

There's no way there would be literally zero incidents of racism anywhere in the world but systemic at say Fremantle?

Please.

 

[phantom13]

There's no way there would be literally zero incidents of racism anywhere in the world but systemic at say Fremantle?

Please.

Fremantle has been around since 95?

Most of the collingwood stuff noted in the report was post that timeframe so…

The conversation around the racism being systemic is to do with a lack of suitable reporting and structure in truth that’s just something that didn’t really exist in most places (let alone) footy clubs until pretty recently.

It’s really weird to be so defensive about it, is freo systemically racist, I have no idea but if they did a report and it was found to be similar I would hardly be shocked.

 

[Chief]

Anyway.

This is all going to get personal and someone is going to cross a line.

 

[ferball]

Anyway.

This is all going to get personal and someone is going to cross a line.

There you go.

 

[ferball]

No, racism is rife throughout society. What I’m saying is I’d suggest 99.9% of Krakouer or Lumumba’s experiences at CFC did not involve racism and was overwhelmingly positive.

You'd suggest that on the basis of what?

How do you quantify that? That all but 0.01% of their experience at Collingwood is overwhelmingly positive? It certainly seems at odds with the facts, given they want nothing to do with the place. What process did you use? Have you conducted some analysis of their time there? Do you know them and have you spoken to them about it?

Or have you just pulled some random number out of your arse? Cos all that does is trivialise their experience of racism at Collingwood.

The implication of your suggestion is that racism is meaningless and trivial compared to the rest of life's experiences. And by extension these player's must be petty and unreasonable to take such a stance over something so trivial and meaningless.


Is that what you are trying to do?

 

[Bjchan13]

Looks like thats it for Heritier. Closing the book on Collingwood and moving on.

 

[Altum Volantes]

Released some more recordings to confirm ‘his truth’ that he was forced into leaving the club for not acting in the best interests of the club etc.

But hey, he says he’s done now.

We shouldn’t ever hear from him about this again.