Toast Collingwood has Best Midfield for 2017

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Horaceg

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We can over analyse the data and read into it many, many different things, the one thing that sticks out to me is that we have the capability to contend in the midfield, it's a start and something we need to build on and continue the focus. Contested ball and efficiency out of the middle is key. I see many names mentioned with varying degrees of each's net worth, the wildcard we have is DeGoey if he can lift and take the next step then without argument we have a very worthy midfield. Would also like to see Elliott running through the guts, think there is some upside and a point difference there also.

Sidebottom is A-Grade, the only argument for me is he elite. Might find out this year, he has genuine class.
 

No SPIN

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You know, your posts would probably be better received if you didn't post in caps and make it look like you're yelling at people.

Without the caps that was a reasonable post. With the caps it makes you look like a condescending dick. Something to think about.

Thanks - its my intention when using caps to ensure an essential emphasis (of a posters comment) is clear. Its not a means of condescension in any way.
The emphasis in this case was used to convey that I shared the same view as Sco., which is far from being condescending.
 
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No SPIN

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You talk about CD stats quantifying the potential upside of the midfield group. They don't do anything of the sort.

They have simply looked at all players they classify as midfielders, then taken average performance against some CD player ratings for the last two years...similar to SuperCoach type metrics, and then seen where the players all shake out.

What the headline should be is the 2017 Collingwood midfield - Pendles, Treloar, Sidey, Wells, Adams, Crisp, etc. - was the best performed collective group of CD rated midfield players, that fit the CD selection criteria over the 2015-16 seasons.

It is just a mythical exercise in nothingness, nothing to do with 2017 either...they aren't predicting anything.

yes you are correct, and I was not saying they are predicting the future.
A logical extension of the data that can been reasonably made, is that if the group starts working cohesively then we have the potential be a great midfield.
These are not CD extrapolations but those of our supporters.
Had the CD ratings not been so good, then these extrapolations would be unreasonable.
 
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A logical extension of the data that can been reasonably made, is that if the group starts working cohesively then we have the potential be a great midfield.
There is no logical extension of the data.

The data is summarising a finite time series. Ranking individual midfielders in that time series and then grouping individuals by 2017 team.

There is nothing logical about it, and it definitely has nothing to do with quantifying potential upside.
Had the CD ratings not been so good, then these extrapolations would be unreasonable.
Melbourne are rated as 18th, so it is ok to 'extrapolate' that they have a sh1t midfield heading into 2017?

If I was a Dee fan should I be shattered that there is no upside to my teams midfield?
 

No SPIN

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There is no logical extension of the data.

The data is summarising a finite time series. Ranking individual midfielders in that time series and then grouping individuals by 2017 team.

There is nothing logical about it, and it definitely has nothing to do with quantifying potential upside.

Melbourne are rated as 18th, so it is ok to 'extrapolate' that they have a sh1t midfield heading into 2017?

If I was a Dee fan should I be shattered that there is no upside to my teams midfield?


Data is used in business/science etc. to draw conclusions and logical extrapolations.

To suggest that it can not be done here by lay supporters ( not CD) is counter intuitive.

An opinion that the quality in our midfield offers upside,( once we become more cohesive) based on this data, is far more justified than if we were ranked far lower.

And yes, if I was a Demons supporter I would be very concerned about the competitiveness of the midfield in 2017, unless there were extenuating circumstances to explain the poor ranking.
But I would not be concerned that there was no upside because improving from 18th is clearly possible with their list.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree.
 
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Data is used in business/science etc. to draw conclusions and logical extrapolations.

To suggest that it can not be done here by lay supporters ( not CD) is counter intuitive.
In business there are specific roles within companies who are trained in analysing data.

I am saying that you don't actually understand the data CD have used, you are not fully across how they have filtered it, or what they are actually trying to present....but yet are trying to use it to support an argument, INCORRECTLY.

It is nothing more than a fluff piece designed as part of an advertising campaign promoting their 2017 AFL prospectus.

Many businesses fail because they don't properly understand the revelant data to their business, they make poor decisions based on incorrect assumptions, an inability to actually correctly interpret what data they do collect, and are prone to unwarranted extrapolation of data leading to poor investment decisions.

An opinion that the quality in our midfield offers upside,( once we become more cohesive) based on this data, is far more justified than if we were ranked far lower.
No, the output rankings have nothing to do with potential upside. You are welcome to your own opinion, but continually trying to justify your opinion with the CD ratings is actually doing you a disservice....better to just say you feel it in your waters and leave it at that.

They have ranked individual midfielders output from 2015-16, ie Pendles ranked 6th, Treloar 13th and Crisp 51st. It doesn't matter that Wells and Treloar didn't play for Collingwood in that full period, all they have then done is grouped the players based on their 2017 team to then come up with the 'best midfield' of 2017.

What was Pendles ranking in 2014, is his output on the decline, stable or growing? Are CD expecting him to be the 6th best midfielder in 2017??

Viney was Melbourne's top rated midfielder at 52, lower than Crisp. I would trade Crisp for Viney in a flash, no offence to Crispo, but he isn't as good as Viney.

If you want to be talking about upside and growth, would need to work through the yearly variance of each individual player....Who from Collingwood is still on the growth curve, that indicates potential upside. Adding Wells will mean that some players overall rating actually drops, as he will get more time in the middle.

This ranking isn't doing any of that, yet you keep banging on about it projecting upside potential?

And yes, if I was a Demons supporter I would be very concerned about the competitiveness of the midfield in 2017, unless there were extenuating circumstances to explain the poor ranking.
That the ranking is reflective of 2015-16 output, when guys like Viney, Petracca, Gawn, Bradshaw, Tyson were kids who were learning the game.

Demon fans wouldn't be concerned at all, their midfield has smashed ours over that period anyway!!
 

doodles98

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Data is used in business/science etc. to draw conclusions and logical extrapolations.

But I would not be concerned that there was no upside because improving from 18th is clearly possible with their list.
ya think?
 

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Mame

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In business there are specific roles within companies who are trained in analysing data.

I am saying that you don't actually understand the data CD have used, you are not fully across how they have filtered it, or what they are actually trying to present....but yet are trying to use it to support an argument, INCORRECTLY.

It is nothing more than a fluff piece designed as part of an advertising campaign promoting their 2017 AFL prospectus.

Many businesses fail because they don't properly understand the revelant data to their business, they make poor decisions based on incorrect assumptions, an inability to actually correctly interpret what data they do collect, and are prone to unwarranted extrapolation of data leading to poor investment decisions.


No, the output rankings have nothing to do with potential upside. You are welcome to your own opinion, but continually trying to justify your opinion with the CD ratings is actually doing you a disservice....better to just say you feel it in your waters and leave it at that.

They have ranked individual midfielders output from 2015-16, ie Pendles ranked 6th, Treloar 13th and Crisp 51st. It doesn't matter that Wells and Treloar didn't play for Collingwood in that full period, all they have then done is grouped the players based on their 2017 team to then come up with the 'best midfield' of 2017.

What was Pendles ranking in 2014, is his output on the decline, stable or growing? Are CD expecting him to be the 6th best midfielder in 2017??

Viney was Melbourne's top rated midfielder at 52, lower than Crisp. I would trade Crisp for Viney in a flash, no offence to Crispo, but he isn't as good as Viney.

If you want to be talking about upside and growth, would need to work through the yearly variance of each individual player....Who from Collingwood is still on the growth curve, that indicates potential upside. Adding Wells will mean that some players overall rating actually drops, as he will get more time in the middle.

This ranking isn't doing any of that, yet you keep banging on about it projecting upside potential?


That the ranking is reflective of 2015-16 output, when guys like Viney, Petracca, Gawn, Bradshaw, Tyson were kids who were learning the game.

Demon fans wouldn't be concerned at all, their midfield has smashed ours over that period anyway!!
So CD has rated our midfield the best hey? We should have a ripping 2017. Can't wait.
 

Schraderbrau

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Data is used in business/science etc. to draw conclusions and logical extrapolations.

To suggest that it can not be done here by lay supporters ( not CD) is counter intuitive.

An opinion that the quality in our midfield offers upside,( once we become more cohesive) based on this data, is far more justified than if we were ranked far lower.

And yes, if I was a Demons supporter I would be very concerned about the competitiveness of the midfield in 2017, unless there were extenuating circumstances to explain the poor ranking.
But I would not be concerned that there was no upside because improving from 18th is clearly possible with their list.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree.
we were crushed in midfield twice by Melbourne this season.
 

Mame

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we were crushed in midfield twice by Melbourne this season.
It's true. The second game was the Grundy-Witts fiasco and the game prior to Grundy's breakout. Should be much more competitive next game but they do lift against us. Sick of Vince getting his only Brownlow votes against us. Pendlebury in particular. They match up well.
 
we were crushed in midfield twice by Melbourne this season.
So that means if CD rank us first but Melbourne last, we can extrapolate we're really ranked ninth or tenth.

I see this as potential factoid that means nothing now but could indicate no correlation in the future.
 

No SPIN

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In business there are specific roles within companies who are trained in analysing data.

I am saying that you don't actually understand the data CD have used, you are not fully across how they have filtered it, or what they are actually trying to present....but yet are trying to use it to support an argument, INCORRECTLY.

It is nothing more than a fluff piece designed as part of an advertising campaign promoting their 2017 AFL prospectus.

Many businesses fail because they don't properly understand the revelant data to their business, they make poor decisions based on incorrect assumptions, an inability to actually correctly interpret what data they do collect, and are prone to unwarranted extrapolation of data leading to poor investment decisions.


No, the output rankings have nothing to do with potential upside. You are welcome to your own opinion, but continually trying to justify your opinion with the CD ratings is actually doing you a disservice....better to just say you feel it in your waters and leave it at that.

They have ranked individual midfielders output from 2015-16, ie Pendles ranked 6th, Treloar 13th and Crisp 51st. It doesn't matter that Wells and Treloar didn't play for Collingwood in that full period, all they have then done is grouped the players based on their 2017 team to then come up with the 'best midfield' of 2017.

What was Pendles ranking in 2014, is his output on the decline, stable or growing? Are CD expecting him to be the 6th best midfielder in 2017??

Viney was Melbourne's top rated midfielder at 52, lower than Crisp. I would trade Crisp for Viney in a flash, no offence to Crispo, but he isn't as good as Viney.

If you want to be talking about upside and growth, would need to work through the yearly variance of each individual player....Who from Collingwood is still on the growth curve, that indicates potential upside. Adding Wells will mean that some players overall rating actually drops, as he will get more time in the middle.

This ranking isn't doing any of that, yet you keep banging on about it projecting upside potential?


That the ranking is reflective of 2015-16 output, when guys like Viney, Petracca, Gawn, Bradshaw, Tyson were kids who were learning the game.

Demon fans wouldn't be concerned at all, their midfield has smashed ours over that period anyway!!

As I said we 'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
Have you forgotten the group its being compared to? We're unfortunately a long way off based on 2016.

Then how could Champion Data be so Wrong.

Shows that you not really look at there Stats and Rating Then
 
Jul 25, 2008
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Then how could Champion Data be so Wrong.

Shows that you not really look at there Stats and Rating Then

IMO, because they place far too much emphasis on depth and they don't take anything into account other than stats.

For instance in the 2016 GF Sydney's clear best player was Grundy. He singlehandedly prevented that game from being a blowout, however the stats wouldn't have reflected that.

Its not to say there methods are faulty because they aren't more that a purely statistical assessment will throw up anomally's.
 

Mame

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IMO, because they place far too much emphasis on depth and they don't take anything into account other than stats.

For instance in the 2016 GF Sydney's clear best player was Grundy. He singlehandedly prevented that game from being a blowout, however the stats wouldn't have reflected that.

Its not to say there methods are faulty because they aren't more that a purely statistical assessment will throw up anomally's.
He had a good game according to CD. Fourth highest score for Sydney. Sixth highest on the field. Stats are only supplements.

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We have talent but they don't work for each other

This is the problem. I keep waiting for the chemistry, the different playing styles to click, the absolute confidence in each other to materialise. Please let it happen in 2017!
 

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