Autopsy Collingwood lost again. Sigh

[loki04]

I wonder. Is this our Brett Ratten moment following Carlton playing Essendon and getting smashed by them after the got beat by us on Anzac Day "saying they grew in body size in a space of a week?"

Im not so sure it is.

A lot noises coming out of the club prior to the port game was pointing to Buckley being extended.

They Ed Pert Bucks have all been at pains to distance themselves from Buckleys finals or gone comments in preseason.

I think if we go 50/50 win loss for the rest of the year he will get an extension. Think the wheels will have to truly fall off for him to go.


Not sure how I feel about it because imo we have more problems then Buckley.
The list is NQR and taking Hines best rated year in year out has created an inbalanced list and very one paced and lacking class, xfactor etc.
We have over looked quality players who fit NEEDS for mids mids and more mids, did i mention all the HBFS we also have and barely a line breaker amoung them.

Dekkas record after he lost his number 1 scout in Jason Taylor has been mediocre at best Melbourne however have gone from dunces to kings in that same period under Taylor.

Then there is the whole strength and conditioning program which again is flailing behind most other teams.

Hard to execute a gameplan when many in the 22 struggle with basic skills and make country footballers look like Ablett jnr.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

We desperately need some talent in the forward line. We have Moore who is only 21 and Fasolo. Elliott's injured but we have no one decent to replace him with. The forward line has been an issue for us all year. Our forward line is just a bunch of midfielders with Moore and Fasolo. Crocker is not up to it at the moment, Cox or Mayne need to replace him in the side. We need genuine forward line players not midfielders resting in the forward line waiting to be rotated back into the midfield. We desperately need player's like Kirby and Daicos who are creative in their to score.

Or at least if they are midfielders, they need to be really quick to keep the ball in, not moderate pace types, with De Goey, Greenwood, Crocker and Brown down there it was way too easy to run out for the opposition, and none of those guys are particularly dangerous, other than De Goey, but I think we all saw how well he played when given more midfield time. Hopefully he starts against Hawthorn in the guts with Adams and Treloar. Pendles is better off the wing imo.

 

[Carringbush2010]

You see, its your ability to muster a decent straw man that makes me really respect you as a poster.

No, if you could manage a basic level of reading comprehension, you would note that in no way was I saying Carlton was either a success, nor was it instant.

Indeed, the opposite is the case. My point is that they floundered around for longer than necessary unwilling to accept they were s**t and the reasons they were s**t had a lot to do with outdated approaches, a touching belief in the power of "carlton Exceptionalism", and holding on to old boys who were not up to it.

It took them reaching utter bottom before they changed. They are not yet a success, but they have changed things at multiple levels and are demonstrably moving in the right direction now, and the most important of those are cultural, to wit, abandoning the quick fix buy it mentality, and abandoning appointing favoured sons and replacing that with proper processes to identify and get the best talent wherever it came from.

Any lessons there for our most ironically named poster I wonder?

And by the way, does your straw man come with complementary Edward Woodward or is that an optional extra?

Just on carlton, I'd go as far to say they're closer to a flag than we are. Not in the midfield but elsewhere certainly more balanced, sure young and raw - as are we but definitely better managed. Actually we're only closer than say Brisbane but that's about it - oh dear we really are padded cell material aren't we!

 

[DaVe86]

Im not so sure it is.

A lot noises coming out of the club prior to the port game was pointing to Buckley being extended.

They Ed Pert Bucks have all been at pains to distance themselves from Buckleys finals or gone comments in preseason.

I think if we go 50/50 win loss for the rest of the year he will get an extension. Think the wheels will have to truly fall off for him to go.


Not sure how I feel about it because imo we have more problems then Buckley.
The list is NQR and taking Hines best rated year in year out has created an inbalanced list and very one paced and lacking class, xfactor etc.
We have over looked quality players who fit NEEDS for mids mids and more mids d8d i mention all the HBFS we also have and barely a line breaker amoung them.

Dekkas record after he list his number 1 scout in Jason Taylor has been mediocre at best Melbourne however have gone from dunces to kings in that same period under Taylor.

Then there is the whole strength and conditioning program which again is flailing behind most other teams.

Hard to execute a gameplan when many in the 22 struggle with basic skills and make country footballers look like Ablett jnr.

I think we have a lot of B grade players that need to go the next level.

We had as much of the ball yesterday, but there was a significant class difference.

If guys like Broomhead, Aish, Phillips, De goey, Scharenberg, Maynard and Hoskin-Elliott can go to that next level then it changes the make up of our list.

I dont think Bucks necessarily needs to get us to finals this year, but he needs to get massive improvement out of the names i just mentioned. We invested high picks into these guys, and reshaped our list to get these kids in.

If these type of players just stagnate, we wilp always be a competitive team who just doesn't have the class to win. A lot of those names have been there for 4 years, so the time is now. Thats what i will be judging Bucks on

 

[loki04]

Davoren came from Triathlon Australia. It is not an accident his theory is that triathletes have the right attributes for modern football and the old approach of muscle bulk is wrong.

Essendon 98-02 team all built and bullied teams prompted the Lions to bulk up to eventually beat them in 01and then win 3 out 4 GFs in a row.
Port another team to counter lions size bought in some aggressive burly types like Pickett and finally won a flag.

Then Geelong in 06 openly stated they were using the Lions of 01 to 04 as their blue print stacked on the mass over 07 preseason and then went on to win 3 of the next 5 flags.

Hawks 3 flags were less built then those 4 sides but they play with an aggressive assertiveness befitting of lions and Essendon.
They also still had reasonable size but overall had a few whippets around them thrse whippetts however all hit the contest hard..

For example watch Isaac Smiths game and then watch Hoskin-Elliotts.
People argue he is outside so doesn't matter but the best teams make it non negotiable that when its your turn its your turn.

 

[loki04]

Just on carlton, I'd go as far to say they're closer to a flag than we are. Not in the midfield but elsewhere certainly more balanced, sure young and raw - as are we but definitely better managed. Actually we're only closer than say Brisbane but that's about it - oh dear we really are padded cell material aren't we!

Their midfield just put ours to the sword.

Ours get big numbers but a lot of nothing possesion or erratic disposals going fwd.
Not a lot of our mid group consistantly kick to advantage of a team mate.

 

[adammania9]

Just on carlton, I'd go as far to say they're closer to a flag than we are. Not in the midfield but elsewhere certainly more balanced, sure young and raw - as are we but definitely better managed. Actually we're only closer than say Brisbane but that's about it - oh dear we really are padded cell material aren't we!

They're in a way, way better position than us. They'll be challenging for flags in a few years, we won't be if this continues,

 

[northpie]

They're in a way, way better position than us. They'll be challenging for flags in a few years, we won't be if this continues,

I agree sadly. If there is one team you don't want ahead of us the blues are it.
But their recruiting and list management has been so much more balanced and strategic than ours in recent years
They admittedly have had draft position advantage , but their stock of young KPP is ridiculously good. We on the other hand have Moore who was forced upon our selectors by father son, even though they were desperate to recruit another midfielder.
Please can someone insist upon KPP and quick mediums in our drafting this year

 

[SpongePie]

They're in a way, way better position than us. They'll be challenging for flags in a few years, we won't be if this continues,

My in laws are all Blues, and it pains me to agree with you here.

 

[76woodenspooners]

The list is NQR and taking Hines best rated year in year out has created an inbalanced list and very one paced and lacking class, xfactor etc.
We have over looked quality players who fit NEEDS for mids mids and more mids, did i mention all the HBFS we also have and barely a line breaker amoung them.

That's like sending your partner to the shops with a shopping list, and then blaming them when they come back without all five food groups.

 

[loki04]

That's like sending your partner to the shops with a shopping list, and then blaming them when they come back without all five food groups.

So you are saying its Buckleys fault we have drafted poorly due to his shopping list?... interesting so Hines title and promotion to List Manager was in name only?

Buckley can ask for types but Hine ultimately has the say on who comes at which picks.

Hine is on record saying he rates the players 1 through to whatever and strikes names off as they are called. Who ever is on the list highest he pulls the trigger on.

 

[76woodenspooners]

So you are saying its Buckleys fault we have drafted poorly due to his shopping list?... interesting so Hines title and promotion to List Manager was in name only?

Buckley can ask for types but Hine ultimately has the say on who comes at which picks.

Our list management is run by a committee that includes Ed, Pert, Hine, Randell, Buckley and maybe others.

Sure, Hine reads out the next available name on a list on draft night, but the names that are on that list, together with their order would be the result of committee input and review.

 

[Chameleon75]

So you are saying its Buckleys fault we have drafted poorly due to his shopping list?... interesting so Hines title and promotion to List Manager was in name only?

Buckley can ask for types but Hine ultimately has the say on who comes at which picks.

Don't we have list management committee?

Given that the coach is mates with the CEO and president, it would be brave to ignore his wishes, at what point does self preservation govern?

I would love to be a fly on on the wall to see how those interpersonal relationship effect decisions, perhaps they don't at all but there's a good chance they do have an effect.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Don't we have list management committee?

Given that the coach is mates with the CEO and president, it would be brave to ignore his wishes, at what point does self preservation govern?

I would love to be a fly on on the wall to see how those interpersonal relationship effect decisions, perhaps they don't at all but there's a good chance they do have an effect.

I don't think it's so much that.

It's not Rendell's place to say that our gameplan needs (for example) two small defenders and a KPF - that's the job of the senior coach to make that assessment. Buckley needs to be in the room writing the shopping list.

It's not Buckley's place to say that Fred Nurk who plays CHF for the Shepparton Rats is a gun CHF and should be recruited. Rendell needs to be in the room making that assessment.

It's not Hine / Rendell's / Buckley place to decide how we allocate our long term TPP (do we go over this year and go under next year?). Pert needs to be in the room making that assessment.

The character of any new recruits to the club, and how they might affect club culture needs to be considered. Bootsma anyone? Culture is driven from the top, so Ed needs to be in the room to make that assessment.

And there needs to be someone in the room making sure that that the committee is working effectively and people are staying within their scope (Probably Pert or Hine)

Dunno if that's the way it works in practice, but IMO that's the way it should work in principle

 

[No SPIN]

You see, its your ability to muster a decent straw man that makes me really respect you as a poster.

No, if you could manage a basic level of reading comprehension, you would note that in no way was I saying Carlton was either a success, nor was it instant.

Indeed, the opposite is the case. My point is that they floundered around for longer than necessary unwilling to accept they were s**t and the reasons they were s**t had a lot to do with outdated approaches, a touching belief in the power of "carlton Exceptionalism", and holding on to old boys who were not up to it.

It took them reaching utter bottom before they changed. They are not yet a success, but they have changed things at multiple levels and are demonstrably moving in the right direction now, and the most important of those are cultural, to wit, abandoning the quick fix buy it mentality, and abandoning appointing favoured sons and replacing that with proper processes to identify and get the best talent wherever it came from.

Any lessons there for our most ironically named poster I wonder?

And by the way, does your straw man come with complementary Edward Woodward or is that an optional extra?

Now we all know what you mean - there would have been no misunderstanding had you taken the time to write the above instead of the ambiguous, earlier post.

 

[TradeDraft]

Just the honest truth; we're average - a stellar midfield that wins numbers but is basket case and raw elsewhere. Call it like it is don't try and answer it like you're in the Australian senate. That would be a good start

Spot On. People have Overrated our list on here. We where NEVER a Finals Team and more Likely a Bottom 4 Side

 

[No SPIN]

**** me. Why did Bucks have to shoot this football club in the foot with under pressure free agency signings with Chris Mayne and Daniel Wells. It will set this footy team years back in terms of developing young talent.

if you actually believe that it was ENTIRELY his decision you are sadly mistaken.

 

[loki04]

Our list management is run by a committee that includes Ed, Pert, Hine, Randell, Buckley and maybe others.

Sure, Hine reads out the next available name on a list on draft night, but the names that are on that list, together with their order would be the result of committee input and review.

When it comes to the *Draft* Hine has majority say as he should, he would get guidelines from buckley as to what roles he needs filled and i am also aware Buckley scoures over potential draftees and ticks them off. But Hine largely has final say.


If Buckley is overuling Hine then Ed and Pert need to define his role as coach not as a scout. I highly doubt ED and Pert have any say on draft night other than congratulations welcome to collingwood.

 

[76woodenspooners]

It took them reaching utter bottom 3 times before they changed.

EFA

 

[loki04]

Don't we have list management committee?

Given that the coach is mates with the CEO and president, it would be brave to ignore his wishes, at what point does self preservation govern?

I would love to be a fly on on the wall to see how those interpersonal relationship effect decisions, perhaps they don't at all but there's a good chance they do have an effect.

Yes we do headed by Derrick Hine. Rendell Mellessi Buckley are all on it as are a few others.

When it comes to the draft Hine and his team would hold the major say.
Buckley is hands on but I doubt he would be overuling Hine for 6 years worth of drafts.

 

[nahnah]

I think we have a lot of B grade players that need to go the next level.

We had as much of the ball yesterday, but there was a significant class difference.

If guys like Broomhead, Aish, Phillips, De goey, Scharenberg, Maynard and Hoskin-Elliott can go to that next level then it changes the make up of our list.

Elliott is A grade and would be a 50+ goal scorer per year if he could stay healthy. Degoey, Shaz and Maynard I have high hopes, WHE I think can be a solid B grader. The rest aren't really looking up to it.

 

[No SPIN]

When it comes to the *Draft* Hine has majority say as he should, he would get guidelines from buckley as to what roles he needs filled and i am also aware Buckley scoures over potential draftees and ticks them off. But Hine largely has final say.


If Buckley is overuling Hine then Ed and Pert need to define his role as coach not as a scout. I highly doubt ED and Pert have any say on draft night other than congratulations welcome to collingwood.

Gubby also had a hand in getting Wells and Mayne - if I recall correctly.

 

[loki04]

Gubby also had a hand in getting Wells and Mayne - if I recall correctly.

Yeah i was more talking drafting.

Buckley would have a lot say on senior recruits. But yes Gubby was involved in Mayne deal as well as the rest of the committee.

I think people think Buckley is this supreme dictator doing the jobs of paid experts for them. People shifting drafting blame from Hine to Buckley is rediculous.

 

[Chameleon75]

Yes we do headed by Derrick Hine. Rendell Mellessi Buckley are all on it as are a few others.

When it comes to the draft Hine and his team would hold the major say.
Buckley is hands on but I doubt he would be overuling Hine for 6 years worth of drafts.

I wasn't thinking he was being over ruled, more wondering how strong a personality is he, does he yield to be a pleaser or does he stick to his guns.

 

[soreplums]

A few positional changes could work in our favour:

Shaz. Dunne. Howe
Crisp. Goldsack. Varcoe
JDG* (Wells). Pendle. Maynard
Sidey. Moore. WHE
Fas Reid. Mayne/white*(Elliott).

Grundy. Treloar. Adams

JDG*. Levi. Langdon Kirby Phillips Aish white broomy

- Preferred players in brackets.
- Varcoe and crisp provide rebound run.
- Maynard some attacking quick ball movement into forward 50m
- WHE and Sidebottom provide good spread as high half forwards and get into dangerous goal kicking positions.
- Moore changing in the ruck.
- Moore, Reid upforward would even give Jesse White a chance to use his athleticism as a third/fourth forward.
- Sidey and Kirby to crumb. Kirby to add some bite to the forward line
-JDG rotate through the middle