Opinion Collingwood Report on discrimination

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lewdogs

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The relentless woke left ran a good bloke out of the game. Done far more for Australian society & footy than all his critics combined.
He hasn't been run out of the game. He has resigned as club president. Will still be commentating and most likely take on multiple other roles too. Bit of an overreaction this whole "footy has lost a great man to the lefties" crap.
 

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pebblesofsand

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What does "woke" mean? Have read many references recently with this verb used as an adjective but I don't understand other that it appears to be pejorative. Is it supposed to be?
Yes its a strange one isn't it.

"Woke" actually means being well informed, up to date and aware of important facts and issues such as race and social justice.

Not sure why anybody would actively prefer to be seen as "unwoke" but there you go. As I've always said its funny world.
 

gringo2011

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It was corporate interests that gave him a shove not leftists. The outdated PR spin he used burnt him. I still find it weird that he is so experienced in the media but botched it. Under Eddie the Pies have obviously followed the rest of the competition to become a pretty progressive and inclusive place. His own gaffes have cause them to look racist and he's been pushed out. It was pretty sad to watch a grown man obviously emotional but he still tried to explain how progressive they were instead of just saying he f’ed up in the past but he's learning to adapt. Several inside Collingwood were working on his removal too, not due to racism, just because he's domineering and doesn't like letting others have the reigns.
 

Stewart66

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It was corporate interests that gave him a shove not leftists. The outdated PR spin he used burnt him. I still find it weird that he is so experienced in the media but botched it. Under Eddie the Pies have obviously followed the rest of the competition to become a pretty progressive and inclusive place. His own gaffes have cause them to look racist and he's been pushed out. It was pretty sad to watch a grown man obviously emotional but he still tried to explain how progressive they were instead of just saying he f’ed up in the past but he's learning to adapt. Several inside Collingwood were working on his removal too, not due to racism, just because he's domineering and doesn't like letting others have the reigns.

He’s also been consistent.

 

George

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What do we think of Simon Buckley's comments?
 

Highlander35

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Buckley is pretty much the one of the last people you'd trust on anything involving nuance.

He wasn't at Collingwood at the start of Lumumba's career, when it likely began. He wasn't at Collingwood in 2013/14 when Lumumba clearly underwent the drastic personal changes to who he saw himself as, and as part of it, what "non-malicious racism" he was and wasn't willing to tolerate. And Simon Buckley's, shall we say, far less than spotless personal history means I'd be unlikely to piss on him if he were on fire, much less listen to inane social media rantings.
 

StCicatriz

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The relentless woke left ran a good bloke out of the game. Done far more for Australian society & footy than all his critics combined.
interesting combination here

as for the original statement i don't think the woke left ran eddie out of the game. i think the collingwood board and it's influential supporters and backers have been trying to transition past him for years now. only problem was eddie didn't want to accept his inevitable fate. he actually has shared some similarities with how mick didn't want to let go.

i don't blame him. eddie is a passionate support. it'd be like one of us becoming president of the st kilda fc. imagine if under your watch you won a flag and turned the clubs financial around. you'd have a genuine case of being the best thing to happen to the club in decades and of course you wouldn't want to leave.

having said that look at it from collingwood's perspective, its just not good governance to have someone as high profile as he is, as chairman for over two decades. no matter how good you are, it's going to catch up to you and unfortunately for eddie he's lost his appeal and nuisance with the public.

the press conference from the other week was horrible, in terms of PR, eddie basically took the situation they had and the proceeded to pour petrol on it and set it alight with everyone watching on, whilst the board members next to him were trying to put it out. which resulted in a major sponsor redirecting their funding. all of which was completely avoidable if he just followed the strategy set out in the very report he was there to discuss. he's just so horribly out of step with how the general public will consume a message, which is very much against the eddie brand. that previously was eddies bread and butter, he could take a pretty messy situation and publicly defuse it. not anymore.
 
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George

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Buckley is pretty much the one of the last people you'd trust on anything involving nuance.

He wasn't at Collingwood at the start of Lumumba's career, when it likely began. He wasn't at Collingwood in 2013/14 when Lumumba clearly underwent the drastic personal changes to who he saw himself as, and as part of it, what "non-malicious racism" he was and wasn't willing to tolerate. And Simon Buckley's, shall we say, far less than spotless personal history means I'd be unlikely to piss on him if he were on fire, much less listen to inane social media rantings.
I'm not sure when it manifested from Lumumba saying inappropriate jokes were made (from what I gather not directly to him but around the club in general - two months after he came to Collingwood (early 2005)) into the chimp nickname or any other derogatory names. I think I read 2006. So you can say that Buckley wasn't around during the time that Lumumba was being called chimp, that's fair enough and obviously I'd agree. But Buckley did say that during his time at Collingwood when "they were winning flags" (Buckley was there from 2010-2012) Lumumba openly encouraged and used the nickname.

And fair enough if Lumumba has since then changed his views on what happened - but if Buckley's recollection is true and Lumumba did not take offence to it don't you think it is unreasonable to condemn a group of people for it after the fact? Especially in this case, 10-15 years on? By all means go nuts if at the time you didn't appreciate it and still don't appreciate it. Name and shame. I just don't understand, especially if Lumumba was encouraging it, why these people have to be punished because you were (allegedly) fine with it then but not fine with it now.

I will tell you I have experienced racism before. In the past people I knew have made racist comments towards me and I wilfully encouraged/accepted it - like Lumumba allegedly did. I think the only difference is that if years later I think back and my view changes to being offended by it, I wouldn't expect those who were involved to be lambasted for it. It happened in a moment in time that I was accepting of but moving forward I would hold a view that those behaviours are not repeated. And lets just be real for a minute. These guys were all teammates. Lumumba was a regular in their 22 and integral to their premiership. He would've had good relationships with pretty much all players, or at least good enough to the point they wouldn't call him names that he wasn't accepting of. I know it was 10 years ago but it wasn't 1920.

I think the societal issues Collingwood face are not Collingwood's alone. I think these things (putting in place systems/process to deal with incidents) are very untapped to not just other AFL clubs or the league itself but even leagues worldwide. Over in America the NBA & NFL have had these issues for quite some time. Cricket just went through it with the Indians. England's national soccer team just had two incidents and rightly called them out. Just because systems are failing people (not just blacks but whites that experience racism too) I don't think makes the people themselves racist. I don't think the people that racially vilified me were racists. Even the Do Better report mentioned that basically the systems for reporting incidents at Collingwood were sub-par - I'd add to that and say probably even non existent. Eddie's put his foot in his mouth way too many times, I agree. But if people really want to move forward there's no need for the kind of vitriol the media and others have heaped on the CFC - who by letting their club be investigated are taking the first important step in building a stronger and more culturally aware workspace. McGuire's resignation does absolutely nothing to fix these issues.

From the connections I have to the CFC and the things I have been told about Heritier during his tenure at Collingwood, I do put some weight behind Buckley's comments. In fact I am not surprised by them - I was expecting an ex teammate to come out and disagree with Lumumba's version of events to be honest. From the type of person I have been told that he is (complete narcissist apparently) I think I will question him until it is proven (re: the use of chimp without Lumumba's consent) so I'm interested to see what comes of his dealings in court and if any other past players have the courage to have their say. I actually used to know Buckley during that time too so everything to do with this situation is pretty close to home.
 

pebblesofsand

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"Big sporting clubs have to be more aware, more attuned, to evolving social attitudes. They have to more honestly and openly face up to their responsibilities when crises emerge. No longer can damage control be the default position. Spin is out – or it should be.

McGuire was a great president for 10 years. He does have a powerful legacy and future generations will thank him for that. But like so many agents of change, he did his best work early, and in the end he failed to identify his use-by date."
 

pebblesofsand

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As for Simon Buckleys comments - as reported - they seem to be coming from someone who is ill informed, ignorant at best and racist at worst.

However, Buckley believed Lumumba’s case was “completely different”.

“I agree with Leon and all indigenous people. And love them for it,” he posted.

“Harry has nothing to do with that. He’s Brazilian. And if he cared so much, he wouldn’t have made the name up for himself.”


Just for balance sake here's Shae McNamara's (another former Collingwood player) response to Buckley’s comments

“Brother he’s a black man in Australia — he got it all the time,” McNamara said.

“sh*t needs to change — systemically. And now he’s been defamed — ask Leon (Davis) and they how their experiences were. Come on now.”
 

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gringo2011

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What do we think of Simon Buckley's comments?
What do you think? Is HL making it up for attention or could it be that Buckley and him didn't get along and it could be something personal or a myriad of other things. The report that Collingwood had done would have interviewed a lot of people who would have put together a pretty thorough picture of the club. If it consistently came out that Lamumba was a troubled attention seeker it would have made the review look a lot different than what it did. Perhaps that's what Collingwood were hoping would come out, that the club was a progressive place and a few whingers were making stuff up. It ended up an own goal if they did.
 

gringo2011

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"Big sporting clubs have to be more aware, more attuned, to evolving social attitudes. They have to more honestly and openly face up to their responsibilities when crises emerge. No longer can damage control be the default position. Spin is out – or it should be.

McGuire was a great president for 10 years. He does have a powerful legacy and future generations will thank him for that. But like so many agents of change, he did his best work early, and in the end he failed to identify his use-by date."

At the end of the day, people inside Collingwood were coming for him, this was just a fast track. If the club had wanted to keep him there there'd have been lots of club people out to protect him. He did great stuff for Collingwood early on but like any organisation that is run autocratically, when things are going well there is no dissent, when things turn the knives come out though. The end of 2020 saw Collingwood implode despite the well managed media. If it had been another club the media would have ridiculed the incompetence. That's why Eddie is gone, his captain's calls were deemed responsible for the sh*t show.
 

gringo2011

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I'm not sure when it manifested from Lumumba saying inappropriate jokes were made (from what I gather not directly to him but around the club in general - two months after he came to Collingwood (early 2005)) into the chimp nickname or any other derogatory names. I think I read 2006. So you can say that Buckley wasn't around during the time that Lumumba was being called chimp, that's fair enough and obviously I'd agree. But Buckley did say that during his time at Collingwood when "they were winning flags" (Buckley was there from 2010-2012) Lumumba openly encouraged and used the nickname.

And fair enough if Lumumba has since then changed his views on what happened - but if Buckley's recollection is true and Lumumba did not take offence to it don't you think it is unreasonable to condemn a group of people for it after the fact? Especially in this case, 10-15 years on? By all means go nuts if at the time you didn't appreciate it and still don't appreciate it. Name and shame. I just don't understand, especially if Lumumba was encouraging it, why these people have to be punished because you were (allegedly) fine with it then but not fine with it now.

I will tell you I have experienced racism before. In the past people I knew have made racist comments towards me and I wilfully encouraged/accepted it - like Lumumba allegedly did. I think the only difference is that if years later I think back and my view changes to being offended by it, I wouldn't expect those who were involved to be lambasted for it. It happened in a moment in time that I was accepting of but moving forward I would hold a view that those behaviours are not repeated. And lets just be real for a minute. These guys were all teammates. Lumumba was a regular in their 22 and integral to their premiership. He would've had good relationships with pretty much all players, or at least good enough to the point they wouldn't call him names that he wasn't accepting of. I know it was 10 years ago but it wasn't 1920.

I think the societal issues Collingwood face are not Collingwood's alone. I think these things (putting in place systems/process to deal with incidents) are very untapped to not just other AFL clubs or the league itself but even leagues worldwide. Over in America the NBA & NFL have had these issues for quite some time. Cricket just went through it with the Indians. England's national soccer team just had two incidents and rightly called them out. Just because systems are failing people (not just blacks but whites that experience racism too) I don't think makes the people themselves racist. I don't think the people that racially vilified me were racists. Even the Do Better report mentioned that basically the systems for reporting incidents at Collingwood were sub-par - I'd add to that and say probably even non existent. Eddie's put his foot in his mouth way too many times, I agree. But if people really want to move forward there's no need for the kind of vitriol the media and others have heaped on the CFC - who by letting their club be investigated are taking the first important step in building a stronger and more culturally aware workspace. McGuire's resignation does absolutely nothing to fix these issues.

From the connections I have to the CFC and the things I have been told about Heritier during his tenure at Collingwood, I do put some weight behind Buckley's comments. In fact I am not surprised by them - I was expecting an ex teammate to come out and disagree with Lumumba's version of events to be honest. From the type of person I have been told that he is (complete narcissist apparently) I think I will question him until it is proven (re: the use of chimp without Lumumba's consent) so I'm interested to see what comes of his dealings in court and if any other past players have the courage to have their say. I actually used to know Buckley during that time too so everything to do with this situation is pretty close to home.

I used to work with a guy from Mauritius back in the 90s and a big bunch of workmates started calling him n***** as a nickname. He wasn't assertive enough to stand up to them and would laugh along with them like it didn't worry him. I was a junior manager and had to deal with it. We had to tell this wolf pack that it wasn't okay and when we tried to tell them to stop they'd all claim he was cool with it so it wasn't an issue. They'd ask him if he minded and he'd say no but then he wanted the company to stop them. It was really hard for the pack to see that they might be being offensive to him because he wouldn't let people know how much it was getting to him. He'd tell us he'd go home and cry but then couldn't seem to stand up and tell people to stop. In the end we got him to write letter and we got these guys to read it. It stopped straight away once they realised what it was like to be in his shoes. I can't say it's the same for HL but it's not always straight forward. Similar to HL, people used to find this guy annoying and used his personality as reason to justify their own behaviour. Most of these guys didn't think they were racist, it was different time back then.
 

BrutThough

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I'm amazed at how little scrutiny Nathan Buckley has received in all this.

Surely someone who was the Captain, Assistant Coach and then Head Coach during a lot of this needs to shoulder a lot of the responsibility and publicly apologise for his role in creating and allowing the racism to continue within the club.

As much as Eddie has had multiple public ignorant or racist moments, Buckley was the person in the playing group and club every day and would have had much more first hand knowledge and experiences with the behaviours that report was talking about.
 

pebblesofsand

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I used to work with a guy from Mauritius back in the 90s and a big bunch of workmates started calling him n***** as a nickname. He wasn't assertive enough to stand up to them and would laugh along with them like it didn't worry him. I was a junior manager and had to deal with it. We had to tell this wolf pack that it wasn't okay and when we tried to tell them to stop they'd all claim he was cool with it so it wasn't an issue. They'd ask him if he minded and he'd say no but then he wanted the company to stop them. It was really hard for the pack to see that they might be being offensive to him because he wouldn't let people know how much it was getting to him. He'd tell us he'd go home and cry but then couldn't seem to stand up and tell people to stop. In the end we got him to write letter and we got these guys to read it. It stopped straight away once they realised what it was like to be in his shoes. I can't say it's the same for HL but it's not always straight forward. Similar to HL, people used to find this guy annoying and used his personality as reason to justify their own behaviour. Most of these guys didn't think they were racist, it was different time back then.
Yep - well said. With this sort of stuff I always go back to a saying that has stuck with me since I was a kid

Though boys throw stones at frogs in sport, the frogs do not die in sport but in earnest.
 

ScrappyDo

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I'm amazed at how little scrutiny Nathan Buckley has received in all this.

Surely someone who was the Captain, Assistant Coach and then Head Coach during a lot of this needs to shoulder a lot of the responsibility and publicly apologise for his role in creating and allowing the racism to continue within the club.

As much as Eddie has had multiple public ignorant or racist moments, Buckley was the person in the playing group and club every day and would have had much more first hand knowledge and experiences with the behaviours that report was talking about.
Nar. Everyone is just keeping their heads down.
Only the suicidal would step forward at the moment.
 

BrutThough

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Nar. Everyone is just keeping their heads down.
Only the suicidal would step forward at the moment.
It's that the media hasn't been calling for him to take any responsibility that gets me.

Kinda impressive how he has been able to escape this with no consequences at all.
 

Joffaboy

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The relentless woke left ran a good bloke out of the game. Done far more for Australian society & footy than all his critics combined.
Don't understand this, you can only be anti racist if you are from the left? Racism is not a left/right issue in my eyes.
 

gringo2011

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Nar. Everyone is just keeping their heads down.
Only the suicidal would step forward at the moment.

Yeah, they will have employed a PR adviser who would be telling them to lay low and weather the storm. Scott Morrison's marketing background makes him very good at that too. In the age of the internet and 24 hour news cycle going into damage control through the media is idiocy unless you want to have something explode on you. Daniel Andrews did the opposite, he was front and centre and rocked up every day and got massive bad publicity during Covid. They have finally realised that the media are like a pack of hungry wolves and send out that bald guy who is probably the cleaner to do all the Covid announcements now and the media can't get at them. Gladys is good at it too, she has had multiple close calls but knows you only have to sit out 3 days and not say anything and the biggest controversy will blow over.

The best thing you can do now is just lay low and go silent.
 

Yawkey way

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What do you think? Is HL making it up for attention or could it be that Buckley and him didn't get along and it could be something personal or a myriad of other things. The report that Collingwood had done would have interviewed a lot of people who would have put together a pretty thorough picture of the club. If it consistently came out that Lamumba was a troubled attention seeker it would have made the review look a lot different than what it did. Perhaps that's what Collingwood were hoping would come out, that the club was a progressive place and a few whingers were making stuff up. It ended up an own goal if they did.
This review was sparked by the public criticisms and complaints made by ex-Collingwood player, Heritier Lumumba, about his experiences and treatment when playing for the Club. It has been our clear position that those claims deserve their own serious investigation and that must be one that he is involved in. His claims, however, throw a spotlight over the internal processes and structures that this review is tasked to look at.

The methodology used to assess these claims was a mix of desktop research (including both review of the Collingwood Football Club’s documentation and policies) and a series of structured interviews. We undertook thirty interviews with people across the Club — including the Club’s executive staff, Board members, First Nations members of Collingwood’s Reconciliation Action Group, former players, coaching staff and people who work in AFL external to Collingwood. We undertook these interviews in a confidential manner to ensure that people felt comfortable speaking frankly and sharing their stories. The information that was shared with us allowed us to assess what was on the public record and what was contained or missing in Club policies and processes. This allowed for the honest conversations that have formed the feedback in this report. This in turn allowed us to form the recommendations contained in this review. We are grateful to all of those who shared their insights. This has allowed us to feel confident about the recommendations we are making.

If collingwood were trying to vindicate past behaviour or brush over the HL debacle then why choose two indigenous academics to conduct the review who specifically state that his claims deserves a seperate investigation.

You can see the research that was conducted and broadly the mix of people interviewed and how many. I think things were playing out pretty much as expected until eddy tried to spin things and pat himself and the club on the back when clearly he needed to apologise and make a commitment to follow through on the recommendations.

Eddy has always tried to get on the front foot and defend the club and players which imo beats throwing people under the bus without due process and is no different from the approach most clubs have taken in the past. The need for a fairer more nuanced approach is covered in the review so perhaps eddy demonstrated one last time why it was time for him to go. Anyway the guy was going and now he’s gone, I didn’t like the stacks on although it was a predictable response including the thinly veiled threat to collingwoods sponsorships.

Despite the reviews findings imo eddy has been great for collingwood and the AFL more broadly, I don’t think he deserves the full set of steak knives that he has in his back now. The AFL is already a vastly different space than the one experienced by Robbie Muir and Nicky Winmar amongst others and this review will drive more change.
 

gringo2011

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It's that the media hasn't been calling for him to take any responsibility that gets me.

Kinda impressive how he has been able to escape this with no consequences at all.

You are assuming it's about racism. I still think you'll find it was a Collingwood coup that used his gaffes as an excuse to move him out quicker. It's still about how Collingwood handled the end of 2020 and the fall out from Ediie's guys botching the list management and his loyalty to those responsible for it. Eddie also has a few enemies around the AFL from his years of pushing his weight around and couldn't find many friends to have his back when the knives came out. Collingwood are managing this in the least damaging way possible and by throwing Eddie to the wolves they have avoided deeper scrutiny. Collingwood has been run as Eddie's club for a long time and he's got more power inside his club than any other president. It's hard to oust a guy who has overseen a strong era but there are always people who think they have better ideas waiting out the back. The moment cracks started to appear he was gone it was just a matter of managing the transition.
 

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Woke means virtue signalling leftists from my understanding
Your understanding is incorrect. Has been used since the 19th century. Now used as a pejorative to denigrate anyone who has a view on contemporary issues. Has ben weaponised by some to lazily dismiss others. Much like 'politically correct', 'nanny state', and the new favourite 'cancel culture', catch phrases to shut down alternative views.

I can't see how being anti racist is some type of character fault.

As far as Eddie goes, I don't think he is inherently racist, just generationally a bit behind the times. He doesn't seem to get that racism isn't what it was when he and I were in our twenties where your would go to the footy for example and you would hear supporters calling aboriginal players 'black C**ts' and no repercussions. You hear that now and the person is howled down by the crowd and kicked out. That is the way these things progress, we are moving forward, not in a 'woke' way, but a methodical learning fashion.

Racism is now much more subtle and I don't think Eddie understand this shift. A good example of the difference approaches of a football club is the Robbie Muir issue. One story where Robbie finally got to tell his story and the pain it has caused him over the years. That day Matt Finnis gave an unreserved apology to Robbie on behalf of the STKFC, no if's no but's and extended a hand to him that when he was ready, he was welcomed back to the club with open arms.

The supporters rallied and raised 100k for Robbie in a matter of hours. This is a response to a wronged indigenous player.

And if me supporting the club and the GoFundMe makes me subjected to some trying to insult me by calling me 'woke', well so be it. I know where I stand.
 
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