Opinion Collingwood Report on discrimination

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Joffaboy

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You are assuming it's about racism. I still think you'll find it was a Collingwood coup that used his gaffes as an excuse to move him out quicker. It's still about how Collingwood handled the end of 2020 and the fall out from Ediie's guys botching the list management and his loyalty to those responsible for it. Eddie also has a few enemies around the AFL from his years of pushing his weight around and couldn't find many friends to have his back when the knives came out. Collingwood are managing this in the least damaging way possible and by throwing Eddie to the wolves they have avoided deeper scrutiny. Collingwood has been run as Eddie's club for a long time and he's got more power inside his club than any other president. It's hard to oust a guy who has overseen a strong era but there are always people who think they have better ideas waiting out the back. The moment cracks started to appear he was gone it was just a matter of managing the transition.
So true. Eddie was a man of power and personality, he put plenty of noses out of joint in the AFL industry and the media. Caroline Wilson has a done a victory lap in her column today.
Have always admired McGuire. Have thought he had the best interests of football and Collingwood at heart. However as my mother in law used to say, it's a long road and things can come back to bite you as you travel it.

I wonder if the players letter the day after had a really telling effect. Seemed they had broken with Eddie after the 'Proud day' comments the day before. To me that had more agency than a group of indigeneous leaders demanding resignation. If found that letter uncomfortable and unnecessary but that is probably me and my outdated views.
 

BrutThough

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You are assuming it's about racism. I still think you'll find it was a Collingwood coup that used his gaffes as an excuse to move him out quicker. It's still about how Collingwood handled the end of 2020 and the fall out from Ediie's guys botching the list management and his loyalty to those responsible for it. Eddie also has a few enemies around the AFL from his years of pushing his weight around and couldn't find many friends to have his back when the knives came out. Collingwood are managing this in the least damaging way possible and by throwing Eddie to the wolves they have avoided deeper scrutiny. Collingwood has been run as Eddie's club for a long time and he's got more power inside his club than any other president. It's hard to oust a guy who has overseen a strong era but there are always people who think they have better ideas waiting out the back. The moment cracks started to appear he was gone it was just a matter of managing the transition.
Thats true. There would be a lot of people thrilled that this report was leaked and with Eddie's 'proud' comment because it gave them the leverage to finally get him out after all these years. Collingwood have done well to throw Eddie out there to take all the public blame and scrutiny, and distract everyone from the contents of that report.

My issue is more with the media falling for Collingwood's distraction technique, jumping on and perpetuating this narrative that it's the handling of the report which made just Eddie's position untenable while ignoring all the other major Collingwood people who would have had just as big roles in creating this mess. The media can claim a lot of their reporting over the last week isn't stemming from some personal vendetta's against McGuire but thats clearly part of it since everyone else involved seems to be getting away scot free.


Worth noting, I'm not trying to be all 'poor Eddie' about him finally facing the consequences for his many many years of ignorant comments and actions. More so, I'm just surprised that no on else at Collingwood - mainly Buckley - seems to be receiving no heat from the media despite the catalyst of this being a Collingwood wide issue. The narrative should be about the entire Collingwood organisation facing up to and acknowledging their long history of racism, not just McGuire.
 

StCicatriz

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Your understanding is incorrect. Has been used since the 19th century. Now used as a pejorative to denigrate anyone who has a view on contemporary issues. Has ben weaponised by some to lazily dismiss others. Much like 'politically correct', 'nanny state', and the new favourite 'cancel culture', catch phrases to shut down alternative views.

I can't see how being anti racist is some type of character fault.

As far as Eddie goes, I don't think he is inherently racist, just generationally a bit behind the times. He doesn't seem to get that racism isn't what it was when he and I were in our twenties where your would go to the footy for example and you would hear supporters calling aboriginal players 'black C**ts' and no repercussions. You hear that now and the person is howled down by the crowd and kicked out. That is the way these things progress, we are moving forward, not in a 'woke' way, but a methodical learning fashion.

Racism is now much more subtle and I don't think Eddie understand this shift. A good example of the difference approaches of a football club is the Robbie Muir issue. One story where Robbie finally got to tell his story and the pain it has caused him over the years. That day Matt Finnis gave an unreserved apology to Robbie on behalf of the STKFC, no if's no but's and extended a hand to him that when he was ready, he was welcomed back to the club with open arms.

The supporters rallied and raised 100k for Robbie in a matter of hours. This is a response to a wronged indigenous player.

And if me supporting the club and the GoFundMe makes me subjected to some trying to insult me by calling me 'woke', well so be it. I know where I stand.
Well said
 

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George

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Your understanding is incorrect. Has been used since the 19th century. Now used as a pejorative to denigrate anyone who has a view on contemporary issues. Has ben weaponised by some to lazily dismiss others. Much like 'politically correct', 'nanny state', and the new favourite 'cancel culture', catch phrases to shut down alternative views.

I can't see how being anti racist is some type of character fault.

As far as Eddie goes, I don't think he is inherently racist, just generationally a bit behind the times. He doesn't seem to get that racism isn't what it was when he and I were in our twenties where your would go to the footy for example and you would hear supporters calling aboriginal players 'black C**ts' and no repercussions. You hear that now and the person is howled down by the crowd and kicked out. That is the way these things progress, we are moving forward, not in a 'woke' way, but a methodical learning fashion.

Racism is now much more subtle and I don't think Eddie understand this shift. A good example of the difference approaches of a football club is the Robbie Muir issue. One story where Robbie finally got to tell his story and the pain it has caused him over the years. That day Matt Finnis gave an unreserved apology to Robbie on behalf of the STKFC, no if's no but's and extended a hand to him that when he was ready, he was welcomed back to the club with open arms.

The supporters rallied and raised 100k for Robbie in a matter of hours. This is a response to a wronged indigenous player.

And if me supporting the club and the GoFundMe makes me subjected to some trying to insult me by calling me 'woke', well so be it. I know where I stand.
I didn't say anti racist was a character fault. I don't think anyone ever called you woke, either. Haha.
 

Winmar2Lockett

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Exactly. White supremacy and neo nazi get thrown around by the left to discredit the right, too. Personally think those terms are far worse than "woke".
The right doesn't need any help in discrediting themselves... especially when they are happy to stand together with white supremacists and neo-nazi's to 'protest' against any type of progress.
 

George

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What do you think? Is HL making it up for attention or could it be that Buckley and him didn't get along and it could be something personal or a myriad of other things. The report that Collingwood had done would have interviewed a lot of people who would have put together a pretty thorough picture of the club. If it consistently came out that Lamumba was a troubled attention seeker it would have made the review look a lot different than what it did. Perhaps that's what Collingwood were hoping would come out, that the club was a progressive place and a few whingers were making stuff up. It ended up an own goal if they did.
I've got no idea of their relationship but I do know that HL had put a lot of people offside during his time at Collingwood and I've heard that from indigenous Australians who were close to the club in that time (still are for what it's worth) and it had nothing to do with him speaking up about issues it had to do with his alleged inflated sense of self worth. I think being a professional footballer might've got to his head. This is why it is hard to take his allegations seriously. I don't for one second believe his teammates were disregarding his requests to stop racially vilifying him as he claims. But I could be wrong of course, so I'm interested to see how the follow on from this goes.

If the report came out and said Lumumba was a troubled attention seeker do you think Lumumba would've added more fuel to that fire and called those who wrote the report racist also? There is undeniable pressure put on the CFC in the climate we live in. Those that are criticised for being racist are guilty until proven innocent. I think this is why the Do Better report didn't mention anyone being racist specifically and didn't specifically say the club was racist either. From what I read they basically said the systems CFC had in place to deal with issues had broken down/was sub-par (I'll add it wasn't even there at all).

I dont think the DB report was ever intended to call out specific individuals for their alleged actions, I think the ongoing court case will do that.

I used to work with a guy from Mauritius back in the 90s and a big bunch of workmates started calling him n***** as a nickname. He wasn't assertive enough to stand up to them and would laugh along with them like it didn't worry him. I was a junior manager and had to deal with it. We had to tell this wolf pack that it wasn't okay and when we tried to tell them to stop they'd all claim he was cool with it so it wasn't an issue. They'd ask him if he minded and he'd say no but then he wanted the company to stop them. It was really hard for the pack to see that they might be being offensive to him because he wouldn't let people know how much it was getting to him. He'd tell us he'd go home and cry but then couldn't seem to stand up and tell people to stop. In the end we got him to write letter and we got these guys to read it. It stopped straight away once they realised what it was like to be in his shoes. I can't say it's the same for HL but it's not always straight forward. Similar to HL, people used to find this guy annoying and used his personality as reason to justify their own behaviour. Most of these guys didn't think they were racist, it was different time back then.
That could all be true for HL but I haven't heard anything like that from HL or anyone at the club, publicly or privately. It's hard for people to change so the fact HL so openly calls it out now makes me wonder that he probably had that strong of a character back then too. If I'm wilfully encouraging or accepting of behaviour towards me I have to have some accountability in it regardless if that is race, sexual orientation, religion, whatever the case may be.
 

ScrappyDo

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Thats true. There would be a lot of people thrilled that this report was leaked and with Eddie's 'proud' comment because it gave them the leverage to finally get him out after all these years. Collingwood have done well to throw Eddie out there to take all the public blame and scrutiny, and distract everyone from the contents of that report.

My issue is more with the media falling for Collingwood's distraction technique, jumping on and perpetuating this narrative that it's the handling of the report which made just Eddie's position untenable while ignoring all the other major Collingwood people who would have had just as big roles in creating this mess. The media can claim a lot of their reporting over the last week isn't stemming from some personal vendetta's against McGuire but thats clearly part of it since everyone else involved seems to be getting away scot free.


Worth noting, I'm not trying to be all 'poor Eddie' about him finally facing the consequences for his many many years of ignorant comments and actions. More so, I'm just surprised that no on else at Collingwood - mainly Buckley - seems to be receiving no heat from the media despite the catalyst of this being a Collingwood wide issue. The narrative should be about the entire Collingwood organisation facing up to and acknowledging their long history of racism, not just McGuire.
If you haven't already, go a watch The Social Dilemma on netflix. It's a big eye opener.
Taken from that, the media aren't what they used to be. Investigative reporting, journalism and news for the sake of information are dead concepts.
Click-bait is the currency now. Outrage and opinions is all you're gonna get.

Anything that requires the reader to think, or god forbid be challenged in their views is not part of the "news entertainment" business model.

On another note, I'm glad I deleted a post delving into the variety of applications and evolution of the usage of "woke". Who'd have thought so many people would openly identify with it.
Living in the inner north of Melbourne, it's an important piece of being able to function socially with the highly diverse and easily volatile demographic.
Sometimes I play in a local 2 piece band with an old friend.
We only have 1 song that goes for about 45 minuets. 2 chords, no lyrics, no gigs.
We are, Woke As F***...
 
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BrutThough

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If you haven't already, go a watch The Social Dilemma on netflix. It's a big eye opener.
Taken from that, the media aren't what they used to be. Investigative reporting, journalism and news for the sake of information are dead concepts.
Click-bait is the currency now. Outrage and opinions is all you're gonna get.

Anything that requires the reader to think, or god forbid be challenged in their views is not part of the "news entertainment" business model.

On another note, I'm glad I deleted a post delving into the variety of applications and evolution of the usage of "woke". Who'd have thought so many people would openly identify with it.
Living in the inner north of Melbourne, it's an important piece of being able to function socially with the highly diverse and easily volatile demographic.
Sometimes I play in a local 2 piece band with an old friend.
We only have 1 song that goes for about 45 minuets. 2 chords, no lyrics, no gigs.
We are, Woke As *****...
I'll have to check it out. It sounds quite interesting.
 

Joffaboy

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Exactly. White supremacy and neo nazi get thrown around by the left to discredit the right, too. Personally think those terms are far worse than "woke".
Yes, easy to denigrate an opposing view, your a nazi, I am a commo, it avhieves nothing.
Nobody, especially my kids would ever call me woke George.
I am a product of my generation, my views seem antiquated compared to my kids.
Racism, sexual identity, binary pronouns aren't a thing I identify with naturally. I am learning every day. Things your gen take as a given, I still struggle with internally, which while a failing is a good thing, it means as an old bastard, I am not set in my ways or prejudices.
I agree with you, good rational discussion should not be shut down. However overt, racism, sexism hatred and misinformation should always be challenged.
 

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Diehard Saint

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One thing we should be happy about is how St Kilda handled the Robbie Muir stuff compared to how Collingwood dealt with their stuff.

Makes me proud to be a St Kilda supporter knowing we did not fu** around and just did the right thing.
Was just about to write this.
Matt’s unreserved acknowledgement of culpability, and apology on behalf of the club, was exceptionally well - handled.

The interesting thing for me, which I noted at the time, so not hindsight, is that I felt the press release apology from Collingwood was fairly lukewarm and unsatisfactory.
 

Joffaboy

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Circus

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Your understanding is incorrect. Has been used since the 19th century. Now used as a pejorative to denigrate anyone who has a view on contemporary issues. Has ben weaponised by some to lazily dismiss others. Much like 'politically correct', 'nanny state', and the new favourite 'cancel culture', catch phrases to shut down alternative views.

I can't see how being anti racist is some type of character fault.

As far as Eddie goes, I don't think he is inherently racist, just generationally a bit behind the times. He doesn't seem to get that racism isn't what it was when he and I were in our twenties where your would go to the footy for example and you would hear supporters calling aboriginal players 'black C**ts' and no repercussions. You hear that now and the person is howled down by the crowd and kicked out. That is the way these things progress, we are moving forward, not in a 'woke' way, but a methodical learning fashion.

Racism is now much more subtle and I don't think Eddie understand this shift. A good example of the difference approaches of a football club is the Robbie Muir issue. One story where Robbie finally got to tell his story and the pain it has caused him over the years. That day Matt Finnis gave an unreserved apology to Robbie on behalf of the STKFC, no if's no but's and extended a hand to him that when he was ready, he was welcomed back to the club with open arms.

The supporters rallied and raised 100k for Robbie in a matter of hours. This is a response to a wronged indigenous player.

And if me supporting the club and the GoFundMe makes me subjected to some trying to insult me by calling me 'woke', well so be it. I know where I stand.
Thanks Joffa, very well said!
 

pebblesofsand

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I've got no idea of their relationship but I do know that HL had put a lot of people offside during his time at Collingwood and I've heard that from indigenous Australians who were close to the club in that time (still are for what it's worth) and it had nothing to do with him speaking up about issues it had to do with his alleged inflated sense of self worth. I think being a professional footballer might've got to his head. This is why it is hard to take his allegations seriously. I don't for one second believe his teammates were disregarding his requests to stop racially vilifying him as he claims. But I could be wrong of course, so I'm interested to see how the follow on from this goes.

If the report came out and said Lumumba was a troubled attention seeker do you think Lumumba would've added more fuel to that fire and called those who wrote the report racist also? There is undeniable pressure put on the CFC in the climate we live in. Those that are criticised for being racist are guilty until proven innocent. I think this is why the Do Better report didn't mention anyone being racist specifically and didn't specifically say the club was racist either. From what I read they basically said the systems CFC had in place to deal with issues had broken down/was sub-par (I'll add it wasn't even there at all).

I dont think the DB report was ever intended to call out specific individuals for their alleged actions, I think the ongoing court case will do that.


That could all be true for HL but I haven't heard anything like that from HL or anyone at the club, publicly or privately. It's hard for people to change so the fact HL so openly calls it out now makes me wonder that he probably had that strong of a character back then too. If I'm wilfully encouraging or accepting of behaviour towards me I have to have some accountability in it regardless if that is race, sexual orientation, religion, whatever the case may be.
I have no idea why you keep referencing HL in relation to the report. His complaints were not part of the investigation because they are subject to seperate legal action.

In the end any comment about HL or his personality is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand because without even considering HL's claims, the report found that systemic racism exists and has existed within the CFC for a large period of the time when McGuire was the President.
 

ScrappyDo

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I have no idea why you keep referencing HL in relation to the report. His complaints were not part of the investigation because they are subject to seperate legal action.

In the end any comment about HL or his personality is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand because without even considering HL's claims, the report found that systemic racism exists and has existed within the CFC for a large period of the time when McGuire was the President.
HL's complaints are what kicked off the movement to have the report done in the first place.
The existence of his legal action meant that the auditor could not include his complaints lest it prejudiced the case.

I dunno why you keep trying to separate the two. HL is inextricably part of this business, and without him this audit/report would simply never have happened.
 

SaintsSeptember

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I have no idea why you keep referencing HL in relation to the report. His complaints were not part of the investigation because they are subject to seperate legal action.

In the end any comment about HL or his personality is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand because without even considering HL's claims, the report found that systemic racism exists and has existed within the CFC for a large period of the time when McGuire was the President.
And now they will pretend its fixed.
 

StFly

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I have no idea why you keep referencing HL in relation to the report. His complaints were not part of the investigation because they are subject to seperate legal action.

In the end any comment about HL or his personality is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand because without even considering HL's claims, the report found that systemic racism exists and has existed within the CFC for a large period of the time when McGuire was the President.
Speaking of the report
A week after the Nicky Winmar incident, then President of Collingwood, Allan McAllister stated ‘as long as they conduct themselves like white people, well, off the field, everyone will admire and respect ... As long as they conduct themselves like human beings, they will be all right. That's the key.’
As long as they conduct themselves like white people... I still don't recall if there was ever any retraction about that quote, granted I was single digits at the time, but yeah, systemic for sure as there was no us and them just us and people shitting on one another.
 

George

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I have no idea why you keep referencing HL in relation to the report. His complaints were not part of the investigation because they are subject to seperate legal action.

In the end any comment about HL or his personality is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand because without even considering HL's claims, the report found that systemic racism exists and has existed within the CFC for a large period of the time when McGuire was the President.
Well quite obviously I bring HL up in the discussion because this report came about because of claims he made. It would be odd to not discuss him as he is a central part of what has happened at Collingwood.

On your second point - you are right, HL's personality is totally irrelevant for the reasons you mentioned (systemic racism at Collingwood). However I am not discussing that. I am bringing up HL's personality in a discussion about whether or not I think he encouraged/accepted what happened when it happened based on experiences/information I have had/been told. I think it's definitely relevant, and if I can talk about what I've experienced I think that definitely helps build a better picture rather than simply dismissing it because you don't want to hear it or don't agree. Besides, I don't think there's even an argument in defence of Collingwood in this thread at all.

The reasons I believe what I believe are from people a lot closer to the situation than I. And even still, they may be wrong, and I have admitted that already.
 

George

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Speaking of the report


As long as they conduct themselves like white people... I still don't recall if there was ever any retraction about that quote, granted I was single digits at the time, but yeah, systemic for sure as there was no us and them just us and people shitting on one another.
Like Michael Long, Nicky called out racism then and there and their careers were not tarnished by it at all, in fact they were celebrated even more and whilst there were many others who stood up it was those two specifically who were part of a turning point for cultural acceptance in Australian sport. There was already a precedent of players calling out this kind of behaviour in a much more openly racist time. It would be much tougher for someone to call out racism back in Robert Muir's day and much harder in Graham Farmer's day, but I think that shift started to take place in the mid 90's, and whilst it was still going on there were thankfully now people who were willing to call it out. Spida was involved in it in the late 90's and had to publicly apologise. He had an altercation with Michael Long, and again later on with Scott Chisholm. So I can't quite understand the fear for players now calling it out when the precedent was already set. It's absolutely OK to me for a player to change his views on what he experienced years before and then advocate for change so no other player(s) have to be subject to that kind of horrible behaviour - for example if he was accepting of it back then but not any more. So with that said I don't agree with other players reputations being ruined because of it.

Anyway, I'm more-so talking in terms of the playing group at Collingwood at the time. We can say HL was afraid to speak up about it, I don't believe that but lets say he was. Well do we really then think the other players on the list are that stupid to continue to vilify a player who has told them he doesn't appreciate it, knowing that if he (HL) speaks out about it their careers & reputations would be finished? I think we need to give the rest of the CFC playing group some credit. I don't reckon they are that brain dead. This wasn't during a time where openly racist people got away with racism. These things were being called out already. And even if HL says he never appreciated it, there would be players on the list who would come to his defence. I know if I was there I would be one of them. This notion of the playing group openly racially vilifying him and nobody doing anything about it is laughable to me. That, coupled with the stuff I have been told about him, forms my opinion of him and the situation. I don't reckon there's any argument on CFC having a culture of systemic racism as evidenced in the report. I just have questions around if HL encouraged/accepted it or not at the time.
 
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