List Mgmt. COLLINGWOOD Trade and F/A Discussion

[David C]

Im with you, I'm trading next years first for pick 4 this year. We could fast track our rebuild with Daicos, pick 4, Dib and an indiginous small forward. Add Lapinski and Kruegar and hopefully oine of Keene or Kelly can come good. Holding on to next years pick is just delaying the inevitable and that is that we would take a midfielder with our first pick next year anyway, and Callahan, ward, Erasmas, Raschelle and so on are equal to any midfielder next year. If people really believe we are going to take a Key Forward with next years first is just hoping

They are not trading 4 for a future pick, there is no sense in that for Adelaide. I'd guess you'd look at trading out 36 if Daicos is not bid on at 1 and then trade back in 33 after the daicos bid.

 

[snagbreac]

Seems to me that the current list has similar deficiencies to the '18 side with key backs - not sure how we cover the loss of Roughhead. Mark Keane seems the logical choice, but he is very inexperienced, not that tall and a little light to play on the monsters, after that, there's not a lot - haven't seen anything of Begg, but it's a tough ask for someone so young, do the Pies look to keep a spot on this year's like for another experienced KPB or simply plan to give Keane some games this year and see how he goes?

Our HB line is stacked. Moore, Quaynor, Noble, Maynard, the imminent arrival of Dib. Keane is a fly-home risk, Chugg will take some development (but is a solid player) and Ruscoe who plays like a veteran defender. It's inevitable someone is going to move but who that person is remains to be seen.

All comes down to the coaches. Lippa was a strong defensive sort in his day. People are flagging Kelly but from the way he gelled with McMahon in the VFL towards the end, I see him as a better forward heading into the future. He never really warmed to me as a defender.

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[snagbreac]

Our first rounder next year should be a key defender

Don't know why we can't pickup a few before then. Plenty of DFAs on the loose and the MSD gives us access to state league talent. A Charlie Dean-type this year could also be a possibility.

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[snagbreac]

Not sure, my key concern would be Darcy playing out of his skin all year, us finishing high on the ladder and then getting a late 1st rounder as compensation.

I have Darcy as second in line to the Throne of Captaincy behind Tay Adams.

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[snagbreac]

My mum used to do that with a kiss on the sore spot.

You'd want to hope given his midget status that he has more than just good character to offer the club.

He's 6cm taller than Caleb Daniel who racked up 37 touches in the Grand Final.

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[manicpie]

They are not trading 4 for a future pick, there is no sense in that for Adelaide. I'd guess you'd look at trading out 36 if Daicos is not bid on at 1 and then trade back in 33 after the daicos bid.

Who know's in this crazy world we live in, but there is a gun Key Forward from adelaide next year and they have their sights well and truelly on him

 

[snagbreac]

Anyone left for us to take with the second pick in the PSD?

You only use the PSD to get talent that you missed out on when a trade could not be agreed to. You don't just use it to select anyone and who you sign are not rookies. The only club not to use it for that purpose was Gold Coast in 2012.

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[jatsad]

But that sounds like a decision to me. Just not one you like.

That is exactly my point. Just hope it doesn't bite us.

 

[jonbe54]

That is exactly my point. Just hope it doesn't bite us.

Despite all the science and all the so-called informed opinion trading and drafting has risk at it's heart.

Without risk there is no triumph I always embrace it.

 

[Countrypie]

That is exactly my point. Just hope it doesn't bite us.

If it does bite it will have no teeth

 

[jatsad]

A week ago he was a risky pick, as soon as another club picks him up he will be a "certain champion" that Collingwood missed.

Never said he was a risky pickup. As a free hit, I was all for having a go at him.

 

[Gone Critical]

Post deleted. It seems you are questioning the pro scouting considering he was targeted in consecutive off seasons and the lengths you’re going to in order to downplay his Rd 1 chances? It’s akin to a Hawthorn supporter talking down Lynch as a Rd 1 option.

Nah just saying any recruit who comes from a team he has struggled to get a game with isn’t locked into his new team. Nothing more. All of Kreuger, Kelly, Johnston for a start may be chasing the one possie. It’s no ones yet

 

[Gone Critical]

You are familiar with Kreuger’s background in the system aren’t you? He was a forward thrown back out of necessity with Geelong having Hawkins, Cameron, De Koning and Ratugolea ahead of him. Johnson is just as likely as a defender in our mix if he can’t get a gig in our forward line (I like him as a long term Howe replacement).

Reading between the lines I feel like you aren’t keen on a speculative tall being a first choice KPF having never played at senior level as a forward? In the search for common ground that’s a point I can agree with because it makes me uncomfortable, but in a rebuild it’s a path that needs to be explored because there are no consequences to getting it wrong whereas throwing a guy back after he’s spent a pre-season forward has consequences, IMO.

He is also a perfect fit for our mix with his mobility and size while the ball is zinging around a bit early season. Once we get into late May/ June when the grounds get heavier he’ll drop off so it’s important to get an early look at him.

I like the pick up and his background. It will be a real bonus if it works out and we will give him every chance. We have a number of speculative big men picks and we will greatly advance if a couple of them make it. I just don’t have Kreuger ahead of his rivals as our first choice yet. Whoever performs best in the pre season out of McMahon, Johnston, Kelly and Kreuger should get 1st crack is my view

 

[sr36]

Let’s then say we go at 50% would we or would we not be better off with 2 of Allen, Curnow, McKay or Naughton over Treloar and Stephenson?

I'm not at all critical of the recruitment of Treloar and Stephenson over those guys. I'm leaving out Curnow due to his bad luck, but the other three are blokes who have developed enormously in the AFL systems they went to. Stephenson and Treloar on the other hand are either development errors or anomalies. Blokes who have.barely impoved. We recruited the better players, with outstanding attributes, but they didn't improve as expected.

 

[jonbe54]

I'm not at all critical of the recruitment of Treloar and Stephenson over those guys. I'm leaving out Curnow due to his bad luck, but the other three are blokes who have developed enormously in the AFL systems they went to. Stephenson and Treloar on the other hand are either development errors or anomalies. Blokes who have.barely impoved. We recruited the better players, with outstanding attributes, but they didn't improve as expected.

Surely part of the lack of improvement must be sheeted home to poor development procedures.

 

[sr36]

Surely part of the lack of improvement must be sheeted home to poor development procedures.

Recruiters carry the can with us, because the impact of development coaching and player management is a real unknown. But when you have a decade where a lot of senior players fell off a cliff prematurely, others have unusually long form slumps, some really talented footballers just don't improve and barely any late picks develop into senior players, you've got to question whether recruitment or development/player management was the issue.

 

[Crazy Tails]

Who know's in this crazy world we live in, but there is a gun Key Forward from adelaide next year and they have their sights well and truelly on him

Interesting. I'm still a bit gun shy on trading away another future first right now. I'd prefer we hold onto it until we see what the pick looks like after next season. We could end up with two top 10 picks next year if we also get FA compo on a Moore/JDG type. We would also need a future 2nd in before we can trade that future first.

So I still feel like the Crows pick swap will still be a draft night live trade once we know where the ND bid sits. If he gets past pick 2 we then trade 36 and one of our future 3rds (preferably the Lions or Tigers one - not the Hawks one) for their future 2nd. We still have enough points for ND without 36 and we get back into each round of 2022 draft. Crows 2nd rounder could be early to mid 20s too.

Having a pick in each round also then gives us the ability (if we love a prospect in the top 10 this year) to consider that future first pick swap too. If that's actually our plan.

 

[jonbe54]

Recruiters carry the can with us, because the impact of development coaching and player management is a real unknown. But when you have a decade where a lot of senior players fell off a cliff prematurely, others have unusually long form slumps, some really talented footballers just don't improve and barely any late picks develop into senior players, you've got to question whether recruitment or development/player management was the issue.

Agree there and add to that the freak injuries of Swanny's foot and Adam's double hammy crash you have a recipe for mayhem.

Still in comparison to some other teams there seems a clear gap and not in our favour.

Hopefully it is now an issue of concern for the club which will be rectified.

 

[loki04]

In 2019 we had:

Degoey pick 5
Moore pick 9
WHe pick 4
Stepho pick 6
Pendles pick 5
IQ pick 13
Sidebottom Pick 11
Grundy 18
Treloar (would have been a high pick if through the draft rather than a GWS pre-selection)
Aish pick 7
Shaz pick 6

High picks help big time, but all clubs have them - everyone gets given one every year and you usually have to pay a high pick, or player who was a high pick to get it off them. The recent Premiers haven't really had many, if any more than the teams they've been better than. They're found right throughout most lists in the league. We're going to continue to be a team with a fair few high picks for a while now - you can lock that in. We need to hit with those picks and develop them well, plus get a fair few other hits from other areas of the draft or other recruiting avenues as well, if we want to be premiers.

Ah what exactly are you arguing about then if you think you need high picks and the club will get them?


Everyone knows premiership sides have hits from late in the draft and rookie lists and development plus a myriad of other things need to be done well.

The argument on here seems to be you dont need the high end picks or much of it to create a side that is a multi flag team, rather then pray and hope pinch a flag team, or non event rebuild that meanders around 8 to 10.

People get scared over the suggestion of letting the next year play out like last year as if some curse will befall the club.
It isn't even tanking suggestion, its just not trading in a heap of stop gaps to try be competitive before acquiring the talent you need.

 

[LarryKinn]

Maybe ADE need

What does our best forward line look like? I'd suggest:
The locks:
- Mihocek
- Cameron
- Elliot
Next in-line:
- two of: Henry/Kelly/Krueger
- one of: Ginnivan/Bianco

left out McCreery

 

[Maison]

Im with you, I'm trading next years first for pick 4 this year. We could fast track our rebuild with Daicos, pick 4, Dib and an indiginous small forward. Add Lapinski and Kruegar and hopefully oine of Keene or Kelly can come good. Holding on to next years pick is just delaying the inevitable and that is that we would take a midfielder with our first pick next year anyway, and Callahan, ward, Erasmas, Raschelle and so on are equal to any midfielder next year. If people really believe we are going to take a Key Forward with next years first is just hoping

I think the better option is to take a kid with Hopefully a full year of junior footy rather than someone who has missed a couple of years of development.

Plus if we have development year and miss out on pick one or two and we miss out on a KPF we'll be kicking ourselves with no one else to blame

 

[Crazy Tails]

Ah what exactly are you arguing about then if you think you need high picks and the club will get them?


Everyone knows premiership sides have hits from late in the draft and rookie lists and development plus a myriad of other things need to be done well.

The argument on here seems to be you dont need the high end picks or much of it to create a side that is a multi flag team, rather then pray and hope pinch a flag team, or non event rebuild that meanders around 8 to 10.

People get scared over the suggestion of letting the next year play out like last year as if some curse will befall the club.
It isn't even tanking suggestion, its just not trading in a heap of stop gaps to try be competitive before acquiring the talent you need.

Yeah agree; our 2010 success was on the back of a bit of everything with list management. We had a few rookie list success stories (Harry O, Maxxy, Wellingham, Blair, Toovey etc), good late picks (Swan/Goldy/Leroy Brown), some top 10 picks (Pendles/Daisy/Sidey/Nate Brown/Reid/Didak) and a couple of astute list gap trades (Jolly/Ball). Was a very well put together list a shame we couldn't capitalise on it and win another one in 2011.

 

[sr36]

Ah what exactly are you arguing about then if you think you need high picks and the club will get them?


Everyone knows premiership sides have hits from late in the draft and rookie lists and development plus a myriad of other things need to be done well.

The argument on here seems to be you dont need the high end picks or much of it to create a side that is a multi flag team, rather then pray and hope pinch a flag team, or non event rebuild that meanders around 8 to 10.

People get scared over the suggestion of letting the next year play out like last year as if some curse will befall the club.
It isn't even tanking suggestion, its just not trading in a heap of stop gaps to try be competitive before acquiring the talent you need.

There's no doubt that finishing 5 spots lower on the ladder gives you a recruiting advantage. I don't think anyone would argue against that. It's whether that advantage makes up for the development disadvantage of playing in a crap team. Not to the mention the supporter disadvantage of watching a crap team.

 

[jonbe54]

Yeah agree; our 2010 success was on the back of a bit of everything with list management. We had a few rookie list success stories (Harry O, Maxxy, Wellingham, Blair, Toovey etc), good late picks (Swan/Goldy/Leroy Brown), some top 10 picks (Pendles/Daisy/Sidey/Nate Brown/Reid/Didak) and a couple of astute list gap trades (Jolly/Ball). Was a very well put together list a shame we couldn't capitalise on it and win another one in 2011.

Shame is right a shameful act of spite by the senior coach.

 

[manicpie]

I think the better option is to take a kid with Hopefully a full year of junior footy rather than someone who has missed a couple of years of development.

Plus if we have development year and miss out on pick one or two and we miss out on a KPF we'll be kicking ourselves with no one else to blame

I understand where you';re coming from. I just don't think we would take a KF with our first pick. With high picks you need to take sure fire players and unfortunately, Key Forwards always come with an element of risk. I can't help thinking that we have already settled on our Key Forwards going forward. An elite midfielder would be sure bet and as I said before, the midfielders in the top 10 this year will be as good as next years crop and you can get a full years development in them. It's a no brainer for me but some might say I have no brain anyway